The roman catholic crucifix and and the simple Protestant cross

[dudley]

I believe as a Presbyterian Protestant that images of Christ are in violation of the 2nd commandment. As Protestants and Presbyterians we have only the symbol of the empty cross which represents Christ’s redemptive act on Calvary and the Easter message that He is now risen from that earthy crucifixion and has become glorified in a risen body which incorporates his two natures human and divine. Any earthly recreation of what Jesus might have looked like can not be accurate by the Chalcedon Council decree in 451 because in such an image it is not possible to portray the two distinct natures of God and Man in one Person. To me the roman catholic crucifix and the eastern orthodox images of Christ on the cross misinterpret the true message of the Gospel, that He is risen and lives no more to die. The simple Protestant cross does exemplify the message and does not violate the second commandment.

What are your thoughts on this ?

 

[Galatians220]

Well, of course, I believe you are right, Dudley. I will leave it to the gentlemen to reply in detail if/as they wish to do so.

 

[BobVigneault]

I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.

 

[Tim]

I agree with Bob. There is no imperative in scripture for using the cross as a symbol. We speak of the cross, and what it means, as Paul did, but the symbol we are to use is the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper. This is the Biblically commanded and approved visual symbol. The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol.

 

[BobVigneault]

That's exactly what I would have said Tim if I was more patient, could organize my thoughts better and was smarter. Well said.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.

This is why we do not have one in our sanctuary.

 

[jwithnell]

Glad to know I'm not just being hyper with my no-cross preference -- even without the figure of Christ, the cross keeps the focus on the sacrifice rather than on the risen and ascended savior. I suspect it's a piece of Romanism that's just never really gone away. However, I do think its a matter of liberty in one's personal life, but that it really doesn't belong in worship.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Had an interesting conversation recently when I had the local liberal United Methodist pastor and his family over at the manse for dinner he was genuinely worried/shocked that I had no crosses (stylized or otherwise) and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home.

 

[J Miles]

I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.

^This.
People can often focus on the visible cross portrayed, even with an empty cross, and imagine some form of deity is depicted by it. For this reason it could be harmful.
Besides, what does an visible portrayal of the cross teach that scripture cannot teach far better?

I understand the argument based on the fact that as Christ is risen, we do not need to portray him dead on a cross. The use of images, however, often leads to far to much superstition to be considered useful in a earth where carnal objects gain so much licentious affection from being considered divine. For this reason if the cross is to be used at all it should be used with extreme discretion, in order that it remains only a symbol. This discretion would probably prevent it from used in a Church, or even to represent a Church.

We must remember that God prohibits all representations of him, as his majesty is too great to be depicted in a cross or any other object or image, and that any such depiction is a distraction to worship.

 

[BobVigneault]

Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.

 

[raekwon]

Had an interesting conversation recently when I had the local liberal United Methodist pastor and his family over at the manse for dinner he was genuinely worried/shocked that I had no crosses (stylized or otherwise) and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home.

Hah. I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for that.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Had an interesting conversation recently when I had the local liberal United Methodist pastor and his family over at the manse for dinner he was genuinely worried/shocked that I had no crosses (stylized or otherwise) and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home.

Hah. I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for that.

lol...I am a harmless little fuzzball in person.

 

[jwithnell]

Let me guess; if you don't have crosses in your house or depictions of the deity, you haven't joined the conversation, are not interested in a faith journey, don't have the present reality of Christ in your life, and are not part of the community of faith ....

 

[Andres]

Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.

 

[Rufus]

I don't see any particular problems with crosses because it reminds of what Jesus has done. However, like some pointed out they shouldn't be worshipped somehow (I don't know anyone that does think like that personally). In my churches sanctuary there is a painting of a cross on the back wall behind the pulpit and it's never really been a distraction.

 

[dudley]

I agree with Bob. There is no imperative in scripture for using the cross as a symbol. We speak of the cross, and what it means, as Paul did, but the symbol we are to use is the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper. This is the Biblically commanded and approved visual symbol. The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol.

Tim, I agree with you and the others. Since I have left the Roman catholic church and since becoming a Reformed Presbyterian Protestant I have discarded whatever crucifixes I had as well as rosaries and other catholic paraphernalia that detract from the center point of the Gospel. Instead I now want the Word and Spirit, living and active in our hearts and lives, families and congregations, not man made symbols.

I also agree with you that "The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol." I know all too well having been a roman catholic how the Lords Supper can become also an idol of worship. The rc's make a blasphemy of the Lords Supper by worshipping the piece of bread they incorrectly believe has actually become the real body of Christ inside a Gold Monstrance. I found the practice repulsive and repugnant even while I was still a Roman catholic , now having undergone by the grace of God a ’true Protestant conversion” as John Calvin did I find the practice of worshipping the bread wafer a complete abomination . I therefore also agree with Jacob Miles when he said "I understand the argument based on the fact that as Christ is risen, we do not need to portray him dead on a cross. The use of images, however, often leads to far to much superstition to be considered useful in a earth where carnal objects gain so much licentious affection from being considered divine. For this reason if the cross is to be used at all it should be used with extreme discretion, in order that it remains only a symbol. This discretion would probably prevent it from used in a Church, or even to represent a Church.”

 

[earl40]

Ok try this.
.
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
.
.
.
.
.
Now what did you just imagine?

 

[dudley]

Ok try this.
.
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
.
.
.
.
.
Now what did you just imagine?

Good point Earl but leave it to the mind of the individual to encompass what God is to them and what Jesus is to them...let it be a personal relationship based on the Gospel and the scriptures...I could be wrong ....but as a Protestant I do think at this time I want to concentrate on the Word and Spirit, living and active in my heart and life, not man made symbols. I had too many images presented to me growing up as a catholic; as a Protestant I want to be free of those entrapping images which can become idolatrous and lead to many gross superstitions. I want to know the Christ of the Gospel and the bible , not an image as Roman Catholicism seems to prefer. I am a Protestant now not any longer a Roman catholic.

 

[Whitefield]

Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.

Truly amazing, and even more amazing is that not all United Methodist pastors are liberal.

 

[BobVigneault]

And I thank God that there are missionaries like you Pastor Lance, who will stay and preach to a wayward denomination. Blessings to you.

My best friend from my teen years became a pastor in the UMC and we have never discussed where his theology and worldview lie since we have grown up. I think I'm afraid to ask. I pray he's like you. I should give him the benefit of the doubt, shouldn't I?

 

[JoannaV]

For this reason if the cross is to be used at all it should be used with extreme discretion, in order that it remains only a symbol.

Agreed.

I don't think our churches should just have white walls. But too much of mainstream evangelical Christianity seems to be heading in the opposite direction. Even the PCA church we attended for a year projected a giant picture of Jesus onto the wall

 

[kvanlaan]

How do you wear a bread and wine pendant?

 

[dudley]

How do you wear a bread and wine pendant?

Amen brother Kevin! I have no problem if some one wanted to wear a cross. I personally refrain from the practice because Of my disdain and dislike for so many Roman catholic superstitions. As a Protestant I reject the practice of wearing religious medals.


Catholics actually believe that Anyone who comes to death while wearing the roman catholic scapular or miraculous medal will have the surety that he has faithfully praised, trusted and loved Mary, can be also sure that he will not be eternally lost. Such is the doctrine of the Church.

You see the rcc even here turns one away from the true message of salvation in the Gospel. That we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Every thing about Roman Catholicism turns one away from the true message of salvation.

That is again another reason why I renounce Roman Catholicism and her superstitious practices. I am today a Protestant and I do not need these foolish practices for my salvation .I need the Gospel and My faith alone In Christ alone will save me, nothing else that I may do or merit can save me.

Romanism is the greatest system of Idolatry in existence today. Her poor spiritually blind dupes worship the Saints, angels, images, relics, even the wafer at the Mass. Never again will I bow to such vile superstition, never again will I worship anything other than the one true and living God, and for that reason I am proud to be Protestant.

 

[earl40]

Ok try this.
.
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
.
.
.
.
.
Now what did you just imagine?

Good point Earl but leave it to the mind of the individual to encompass what God is to them and what Jesus is to them...let it be a personal relationship based on the Gospel and the scriptures...I could be wrong ....but as a Protestant I do think at this time I want to concentrate on the Word and Spirit, living and active in my heart and life, not man made symbols. I had too many images presented to me growing up as a catholic; as a Protestant I want to be free of those entrapping images which can become idolatrous and lead to many gross superstitions. I want to know the Christ of the Gospel and the bible , not an image as Roman Catholicism seems to prefer. I am a Protestant now not any longer a Roman catholic.

As a former RC turned "rabid" protestant I see why you feel this way. Though I do not have a problem with a "generic" Jesus symbol hanging on a cross being displayed. When I drive by any church and see a cross displayed I can not help but think of what He did for us and personally I am humble almost every time I see such.

Blessings.

 

[Rufus]

As a former RC turned "rabid" protestant I see why you feel this way. Though I do not have a problem with a "generic" Jesus symbol hanging on a cross being displayed. When I drive by any church and see a cross displayed I can not help but think of what He did for us and personally I am humble almost every time I see such.

Ya I feel the same way when I see a cross.

 

[J Miles]

How do you wear a bread and wine pendant?

Amen brother Kevin! I have no problem if some one wanted to wear a cross. I personally refrain from the practice because Of my disdain and dislike for so many Roman catholic superstitions. As a Protestant I reject the practice of wearing religious medals.


Catholics actually believe that Anyone who comes to death while wearing the roman catholic scapular or miraculous medal will have the surety that he has faithfully praised, trusted and loved Mary, can be also sure that he will not be eternally lost. Such is the doctrine of the Church.

You see the rcc even here turns one away from the true message of salvation in the Gospel. That we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Every thing about Roman Catholicism turns one away from the true message of salvation.

That is again another reason why I renounce Roman Catholicism and her superstitious practices. I am today a Protestant and I do not need these foolish practices for my salvation .I need the Gospel and My faith alone In Christ alone will save me, nothing else that I may do or merit can save me.

Romanism is the greatest system of Idolatry in existence today. Her poor spiritually blind dupes worship the Saints, angels, images, relics, even the wafer at the Mass. Never again will I bow to such vile superstition, never again will I worship anything other than the one true and living God, and for that reason I am proud to be Protestant.

No creation of man can ever be thought to posses supernatural or spiritial power, and because of the work the Christ had done it is even more absurd to say that we can be saved by what is made by the hands of men. Our faith is in Christ, not in trinckets of medal or wood.

The use of a cross as a symbol is differnt, so long as we remeber that it does not house a special power.

As a former RC turned "rabid" protestant I see why you feel this way. Though I do not have a problem with a "generic" Jesus symbol hanging on a cross being displayed. When I drive by any church and see a cross displayed I can not help but think of what He did for us and personally I am humble almost every time I see such.

If feel the same as well.

I don't think our churches should just have white walls. But too much of mainstream evangelical Christianity seems to be heading in the opposite direction. Even the PCA church we attended for a year projected a giant picture of Jesus onto the wall

Agreed. My church has a very large cross that reaches to the roof. Rufus' has a small painting behind pulpit. Thats a big differnce.

 

["William The Baptist"]

I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.

 

[Pilgrim]

Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.

Well, it is rural South Mississippi after all. Even the United Methodists there might not go for that even if the gospel it its most rudimentary form may not have been preached in a particular congregation for generations. May there be more of Rev. Marshall's tribe among them.

---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------

I agree with Bob. There is no imperative in scripture for using the cross as a symbol. We speak of the cross, and what it means, as Paul did, but the symbol we are to use is the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper. This is the Biblically commanded and approved visual symbol. The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol.

I agree. And this is a very interesting quote. I wonder if it could be said that a cross or crucifix is to the Lord's Supper what the "altar call" or "invitation" is to baptism (or a public profession of faith from the Presbyterian/Reformed viewpoint.)

 

[Sviata Nich]

I like the cross as a symbol. No where in scripture is it prohibited. Augustine didn't have a problem with it. I don't think Calvin had a problem with using the cross as symbol (look at the Cathedral he preached in). The Huguenots even made their own design of the cross, so as far as I'm concerned its a part of reformed heritage.

The fact that the cross can be made into an idol or distraction should not deter us from using it, rather, it just another example of how depraved and how much of an idol factory the human heart is. If we are out to rid ourselves of all distractions in worship, then away with pianos and organs, away with suits and fancy dresses, away with carpets and electric lights, I bet our hearts could even make idol out of a pew or chair, so away them also.

 

[dudley]

Keith, thank you have made a very good point. I have no problem with the simple wooden cross. However it is all the other paraphernalia of the Romanists that I have a problem with.