The sinner's prayer

[Kevin]

Hello, my name is Kevin. (Hello, Kevin)

I have said the sinners prayer! (gasp)

I have encouraged others to say the sinners prayer! (we love you, Kevin!)


OK. I don't really like the "sinners prayer". And, I really, really don't like the theology of the "sinners prayer". But... I LOVE the concern for lost souls that most people who promote the sinners prayer seem to have.

A story.

About 10 or 12 years ago I had an unsaved friend over for the evening. Also present was an other friend who was the (lay) youth pastor at the local SBC church. My pagan friend had grown up in the SBC & had attended an SBC college.

For several months I had tried to get my pagan(sbc) friend to admit that he was "lost". He was aware that God would not allow him into heaven because he had taught Sunday School. He knew that his fornication was an insult to Gods Holiness. He often said, "If I was a Christian I could not do x, y, z "

*long story short* At some point in the evening my pagan friend said "I am not a Christian". I thought "Great headway! Admission of lost condition!" My other friend asked, "but have you ever said 'the sinners prayer'? Well then you have nothing to worry about! You are on your way to heaven!"

Fast forward several years. The youth pastor friend has accepted the reformed faith and today is chairman or the diaconate in a PCA church. He has also apologised for "screwing up" the gospel presentation to my other friend.

I don't really blame him. If all that was reguired to make peace with God was to say a certain sequence of words in the correct order...then who would not do as he did?

But if God requires true repentance?

That is why I have a "love-hate" relationship with the "sinners prayer".

 

[Pergamum]

Actually, I am shocked at the harshness of the responses here...

Imperialistic? Are you trying to give off heat or light here? Remember, your the one carrying a gun on foreign soil where the locals don't like you. I merely opened up this post with my own practice and asked for thoughts.

Am I to assume this was intended as a compliment to the members here:

However, when rubbing elbows with the "Truly Reformed" I hear many of them show bitter disdain for the sinner's prayer.

You habitually throw out terms like that as a byword.

I like you [Pergamum]. What I don't like is that you insult the community I keep here unnecessarily.

Pergy throws off more heat than half of the board combined. His m.o. over the past few months seems to be to slam Reformed practice any way he can and then cut the conversation short when questions are put to him that he can't or won't answer. Instead of seeking to understand, his typical reaction is to vent his spleen at anyone who differs with him. I asked him 4 or 5 questions in the recent thread on confessionalism and he didn't seriously answer any of them. My first thought was that it was a complete waste of my time to have responded, but hopefully it was helpful to others on the list or some of the many lurkers.

By the use of the term "Truly Reformed" I am not labelling another group but put this in quotes because I have had people self-identify as "truly Reformed" - as opposed to being not truly reformed I guess. On the same occasions, I have been reminded that a "Reformed Baptist" is not really "reformed" at all.

So, I am using the terminology that I have been giving and not labelling someone against their will.

And one characteristic of this group is that they do not like examples of prayers, such as the PCA one given on a previous thread and most such examples are categorized under the label as "sinner's prayers".


So, I began this thread to explore why this is and what sort of examples do we give to people when they desire to learn about how to pray, especially when they are unsaved and want to approach God for the first time.


As far as questions on confessionalism I am sorry if I did not answer each and every question you posed to me. I can go back and try if you would like. I had no idea I snubbed you.




As far disturbing the little community we have here on the PB, let me say a few words:

We are not just "reformed" but we are always reforming. Therefore, we should be examining and critiquing our own practices quite often. There are many things merely assumed and to disturb these assumptions is often unwelcome to people. Therefore, if someone posts something out of line with these assumptions, there is often a circle the wagons approach.

Some of these issues that I have taken a lot of flak on recently are:

(1) challenging people when they speak of all arminians as heretics or spreaders of a vile false Gospel.

I find this very distateful. We show little charity to others and then when I critique parts of the reformed world - often in too broad of a brush stroke - this gets labelled as unfair, even when everything outside of our little world gets all manner of uncharitableness hurled at them.


(2) The belief that says that the civil magistrate is to get involved in ecclesiastical matters and enforce orthodoxy (i.e. some strains of theonomy). This is a constant area of dispute on this board, but not just for me.

(3) reformed mission practices that stress the particulars of reformed ecclesiology such that is there is little room for local growth or even local circumstances of worship.



It appears that these issues has caused a lot of friction this past month. It does appear that to be in the "in crowd" sometimes we ry to say "AMEN" louder than all of our peers. On threads against arminians, many people try to emphasize just how wrong they are...and the next person tries to top that.

I think it might be productive to see where we are wrong, what practices we could improve, where we don't give some of these practices a fair shake and where we assume things instead of taking all things from Scripture.

There is an underlying "culture" and "mood" to this board. And I do not always fit it. I think that this might be a healthy thing.



Finally, whether I "slam" reformed practices or not and how harshly I do this or not is not cause to circle the wagons against me but give me biblical justifications. Maybe there are many errors in reformed practice...perhaps we should learn from these errors instead of silencing critics. This is, in part, the purpose of the PB, to discuss these issues.


As far as this thread goes, what is there that is helpful or hurtful about the Reformed tradition in its many shades (from "Barely Reformed" to "Truly Reformed") when it practices teaching people how to pray?

 

[Herald]

This is not a matter of lacking grace in my response.

I think there is an opportunity for grace from both sides.

Someone may abhor the "sinner's prayer", but you cannot say that it is never a means the Lord uses to call His elect. I think folk get hung up on the whole "accept" deal, but look below:

1 Corinthians 2:13-15

13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Just as the the natural man cannot accept the things taught by the Spirit (the Gospel), the elect will accept the Gospel and Jesus as Savior and Lord as truth.

Now, as at least a "Strongly Reformed" person, I personally would eschew the "Sinner's Prayer" in general as it is traditionally presented or at least caveat it with - "Just saying this prayer does not make you saved - your assurance will come from growing in Christ, honoring Him as your Lord and giving Him glory through a fruitful life."

But is leading someone in the sinner's prayer de facto wrong or sinful? I'd say context and intent are everything...

JD,

I appreciate your quoting 1 Corinthians 2, but I don't see where that is a positive command to recite a sinners prayer. In fact, I can't find a single place in scripture where that type of command (or model) is presented. I understand the caveat that you would add to take away the idea that there is something salvific in the prayer itself. But people being what they are, disclaimers or caveats fade. I believe Acts presents what is required of an individual when presented with the gospel:

Acts 16:31 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

I would call on the individual to believe. Specifically I would call on them to repent and believe. Would I pray with them afterwards? Certainly! I would pray for their encouragement and for the grace of God to be with them.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I think the "Truly Reformed" are concerned that the "sinner's prayer" seems like a tragic and abhorrent first step towards an unnecessarily imprecise walk in the Lord, thus delaying, or eliminating, the opportunity that a true believer can dwell more fully in Reformed truth.

 

[panta dokimazete]

I don't see where that is a positive command to recite a sinners prayer.

...and never intended as a proof for it.

I like the "formula" in Romans 10:8-10, but who can argue with "Believe and Repent!"?

 

[Herald]

I think the "Truly Reformed" are concerned that the "sinner's prayer" seems like a tragic and abhorrent first step towards an unnecessarily imprecise walk in the Lord, thus extending, or eliminating, the opportunity that a true believer can dwell more fully in Reformed truth.

JD, you're close! I would say "in Christ" instead of "Reformed truth." Semantical? Maybe. But it's not a territorial thing with the term "Reformed." It really is how the bible presents soteriology.

In my humble opinion of course.

 

[moral necessity]

I would call on the individual to believe. Specifically I would call on them to repent and believe. Would I pray with them afterwards? Certainly! I would pray for their encouragement and for the grace of God to be with them.

Right. It's like Moses telling the people to look to the snake on the pole. It's not a matter of asking or praying, but of turning in faith to look. They can speak to God about it all they want, and ask for him to help their unbelief. I certainly would encourage conversation with the Lord regarding this and other concerns they might have.

Blessings!

 

[Poimen]

Unless I missed it, no one has actually cited the text of the sinner's prayer. Is there a set form?

 

[turmeric]

Let's see if I can say this kindly...it does seem, Pergy, that you have some deep-seated "thing" for want of a better word, about Presbyterians and non-Baptistic species of Calvinists, that they don't really get out there and try to evangelize, that they're too doctrinaire, etc. I'm guessing (only a guess) that your feelings got hurt during one of those "Are Baptists Really Reformed" threads. My personal take is that we all try to live the Gospel and share it with whoever shows interest. Granted, most of us aren't doing that in a foreign country at this point.

My problem with the PCA website, (and I'm a member of the PCA.) is that the whole page characterized the problem of sin as one of not being in relationship, which is kind of like saying that dead people can't talk to people. They can't, of course, but that's hardly the most pressing problem. I felt like the prayer said "Lord, help me stop sinning and let me into Heaven." without mentioning (in the prayer) Jesus Christ at all, let alone closing with Him. Also, they said if a person prayed this, that person could know he/she was going to heaven.

Please don't assume we do this just to be mean or to think we're better. I do it because I spent twenty years of my life thinking I was a Christian when I wasn't. Thank God He straightened me out. I hate to talk like an Arminian, but I don't want to see the look of horror on someone's face when he finds out (too late) that he's not a believer.

 

[panta dokimazete]

JD, you're close! I would say "in Christ" instead of "Reformed truth." Semantical? Maybe. But it's not a territorial thing with the term "Reformed." It really is how the bible presents soteriology.

In my humble opinion of course.

Brother, you are going to be a sho' 'nuff Puritan before it's all over!

My point was exactly that - Reformed truth = Christ's truth (or Biblical truth) in the eyes of the "TR", whereas others might demur to the implied assertion. (...not me, though! )

 

[Herald]

JD, you're close! I would say "in Christ" instead of "Reformed truth." Semantical? Maybe. But it's not a territorial thing with the term "Reformed." It really is how the bible presents soteriology.

In my humble opinion of course.

Brother, you are going to be a sho' 'nuff Puritan before it's all over!

My point was exactly that - Reformed truth = Christ's truth (or Biblical truth) in the eyes of the "TR", whereas others might demur to the implied assertion. (...not me, though! )

 

[panta dokimazete]

 

[Pilgrim]

I hate to talk like an Arminian, but I don't want to see the look of horror on someone's face when he finds out (too late) that he's not a believer.

There's nothing Arminian at all about that concern. I fear that multitudes are going to split hell wide open who thought they were going to heaven since they prayed the "sinners prayer" and some "soul winner" told them they were saved.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Pergamum,

My apologies for inadvertently mentioning that which should not be mentioned.

Hello, my name is Kevin. (Hello, Kevin)

I have said the sinners prayer! (gasp)

I have encouraged others to say the sinners prayer! (we love you, Kevin!)

OK. I don't really like the "sinners prayer". And, I really, really don't like the theology of the "sinners prayer". But... I LOVE the concern for lost souls that most people who promote the sinners prayer seem to have.

A story.

About 10 or 12 years ago I had an unsaved friend over for the evening. Also present was an other friend who was the (lay) youth pastor at the local SBC church. My pagan friend had grown up in the SBC & had attended an SBC college.

For several months I had tried to get my pagan(sbc) friend to admit that he was "lost". He was aware that God would not allow him into heaven because he had taught Sunday School. He knew that his fornication was an insult to Gods Holiness. He often said, "If I was a Christian I could not do x, y, z "

*long story short* At some point in the evening my pagan friend said "I am not a Christian". I thought "Great headway! Admission of lost condition!" My other friend asked, "but have you ever said 'the sinners prayer'? Well then you have nothing to worry about! You are on your way to heaven!"

Fast forward several years. The youth pastor friend has accepted the reformed faith and today is chairman or the diaconate in a PCA church. He has also apologised for "screwing up" the gospel presentation to my other friend.

I don't really blame him. If all that was reguired to make peace with God was to say a certain sequence of words in the correct order...then who would not do as he did?

But if God requires true repentance?

That is why I have a "love-hate" relationship with the "sinners prayer".

Kevin,

I love the zeal and concern that many people have that might otherwise not have all their facts straight.

Some always confuse a condemnation of the messenger and the message. Not so for me. I do think we need to help people who are otherwise zealous be zealous about the right things.

I know I sometimes joke about some things I used to see when I was charismatic like the Royal Rangers who gave points toward advancement for every body they won for Jesus. My humor could be misunderstood as disdain but sometimes humor is also used as a way to take the edge off of something you're really sad about too. Unfortunately, it becomes less of an issue of merely having sorrow for erring messages the more that theology is rooted in downright rebellion.

Hebrews 5
1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Notice the limit that the Scriptures themselves place on the proper abode of compassion for error: for the ignorant or those that are out of the way but are not being outright rebellious in that. I obviously have more of a problem with a Dave Hunt type who would use and defend the sinner's prayer in open repudiation of the nature of man and the Gospel.

My point is that I'm not the type to throw out babies and bathwater but just because I love babies doesn't mean that every time I want to throw out their bathwater means I didn't consider them babies.

I sort of hear a common thing here that states: "Well God can use anything so what's our concern...."

We have a recent member on the PB who used to be a JW minister. I used to be Roman Catholic. God can use anything. In fact, I remember this one lady that used to belong to my Church that used to frustrate me to no end. She concluded that Reformed people should not dislike the Roman Catholic Church so much because she learned so much of the Bible from them. Well, yeah, me too. I wasn't biblically ignorant when I was converted from the Roman Catholic Church but it doesn't mean that every means shouldn't be taken captive. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean I'm going to suggest to parents that they raise their kids in Roman Catholicism hoping that a chain of Providence leads them to the Reformed faith.

Why can't we all just agree, first, on what the ordinary means of Grace are for salvation?

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but you mentioned some things that I wanted to make sure folks know I understand it's not all a "us v. them" world.

I have a brother in my local Church that mentions that there are things he used to believe and, therefore, do that he believed were honoring to God that he is now ashamed of. That's my experience as well. I've always been a fairly zealous person and had a concern for the life and growth of the Church but my ideas about what those things used to be were very wrong. I used to be a Worship Team leader, for instance, that knew just how to craft an entire service to bring people to a place where they "...just wanted to worship the Lord...."

I still have a concern and desire for the lost but that concern has been deepened and my desires have been re-shaped by the Word. My conception of what really converts the soul makes it hard for me to accept a measure that I can just simply conclude that God will work around. I believe for me to do that would be to tempt God and say: "I know you said to convert the soul with these means but this seems to get results too. If I'm being a bit sloppy then you'll just use whatever means you can anyway...."

 

[matthew11v25]

Poimen made a good point that we should make sure we know what the "sinner's prayer" is in this discussion...I am a sinner and I pray.

Perg said:

"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."


I personally see nothing wrong with that...a prayer asking for faith and repentance.

Sounds modeled after scripture to me.

While a "sinners prayer" obviously does not save it seems to act more of a confession of faith.

 

[Davidius]

 

[Pergamum]

I think I am starting to see the basic reasons why I have clashed with many this past month...


I have been dialoguing with several that fall squarely into the "Truly Reformed" camp and their abiding concerns are precision. I think I have discovered the broad difference betwen BR and TR and I now can label myself as "broadly reformed". So that where the TRs see precision, I see rigidity, where I see freedom they see a loosey gooseyness on my part.

It does appear that much of these clashes occur when dealing in issues where TRs and BRs diagree. For instance, my TR friends' solutions for every doctrinal error is more of the WCF and more catechism. This corresponds to Rich's answers to me on a previous thread. So, I am seeing some trends in responses. Whee I rejected confessionalism as a cure-all, this struck the more TR oriented people as wanting to base my theology on the air. There seems a fundamental difference in going about issues from these two camps I am discovering.

So, here this past month I have been exploring these issues where BRs and TRs disagree most widely. And these issues seem to have the greatest potential at "fiery-ness" because in these issues we are, sort of, fighting over the very definition of reformed.

For instance, my friends keep telling me that I am not "reformed" enough and when I ask them what they mean the answer is usually one of greater precision in ecclesiology, even when I think the Scripture warrants more freedom, etc.


So, I am profiting from these discussions, even if a lot of heat occurs.



So, again, does anyone (divorcing one's self of the boogeymen that the term "sinner's prayer conures up) have any problems with my stated practice of leading people in prayer and teaching them how to pray?


Turmeric: I understand your concerns. Can you see anything wrong with what I mentioned as myown practices though?




Also, again:

How are we to teach people to pray. Can we teach lost people to pray for their salvation. Of course, we are not to teach any act as saving, but only faith...but how are we to teach people to pray since with the mouth confession is made and in the heart on believes unto salvation?


And, if we give people model prayers to pray (such as Jesus' or the publican's in LUke) or one of our own, then how closely would this resemble some sinner's prayers:


A sample prayer:


Lord, I want to be saved. I am a sinner. Please grant me true faith and true repentnace and help me to trust in you truly. Please have mercy onme a sinner..."


Is it okay to teach people to plead this as they are seeking the Lord?




Finally, I love you guys! I mean that. Every important discussion should have some intensity. And every one of our assumed truths should be challenged. What is it thatis both good and bad when we give others examples of how to pray. And, am I doing anything wrong?

 

[Pilgrim]

There isn't any problem with teaching people to pray. Indeed the Lord himself did it! Others use the A.C.T.S. model in teaching prayer--Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication (did this originate with the Navigators?) The popular Valley of Vision published by the Banner of Truth Trust is a collection of Puritan prayers. Writers like Phillip Doddridge included prayers in books like The Rise and Progress of Religion in the Soul.

The biggest issue I have with the practice is that typically the evangelist or preacher will immediately assure the person who prayed that he has been saved. "If you just prayed that prayer...." I would also take issue if someone were to say that it was necessary to pray something akin to the "sinners prayer" in order to be saved.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

I really dislike the idea of telling somebody what to pray.

If they are being drawn to Christ then they would probably be drawn to their knees in utter repentance. And i don't know how "real" the repentance would be if they were fed their lines.

If my pastor told me exactly what to say to apologize to my wife it wouldn't mean anything to her...but if it came from my heart she would accept it.

This is exactly my biggest trouble with formula "sinners prayers." genuine repentance is reflective of the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the teaching of a formula prayer.

I actually know of a Pastor who ends every service by asking everyone in the congregation to prayer with him, he doesn't call the "sinners prayer" but that is exactly what it is. It is as though his parishioners are supposed to be coming to church every Sunday morning to "get saved" all over again from the sins they have committed that week.

What has happened to discipleship when it merely consists of feeling guilty and praying a prayer that if it indeed saves, then why must I pray it again just as I did last Sunday? Have I been convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and repented unto salvation or have I merely been made to feel guilty by the words of a foolish man and asked to pray a formula prayer?

"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." (2 Corinthians 7:10 NKJV)

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 6:1 NKJV)

 

[Iconoclast]

post1 vs post 17

Perg,
There is a big difference between how you asked the question in post 1
vs. post 17\
We have all seen the abuse, and psychological manipulations to get a person to make a verbal commitment to an idea, "just believe" just have faith,etc. with no real concern for the truthfulness of the facts about our lost condition.
The sinners prayer that is used is a caricature of gospel teaching.Some have spoken of it as parrot salvation- The soul winner says;
Repeat after me: Lord I believe I am a sinner,and I do not want to go to hell,so i pray you will save me for Jesus sake,amen.
Friend you have repeated the formula, and now you are saved, once saved always saved, no matter how you live.

Then the sinner says; Um, thats it? I do not have to live a converted life or anything?

The soul winner says, no you have prayed the prayer and now you can just sail through life as a carnal christian. The only sin you can commit is to doubt that you are saved!

So Perg, in post #1 this is what people were reacting to when you use the phrase "sinners prayer"
In post 17 you speak of asking for mercy like those persons described in the gospel accounts. This presupposes a knowledge of sin,and judgment to come. We should all be excited to have a conversation that would end up with us describing prayer to someone who is quite possibly still outside of Christ.
I remember asking God to have mercy upon my soul, as that was what i remember the people did in the gospels in response to the Spirt's convicting work.
As far as what happens if someone says I have accepted Christ.
I think it has already been indicated that pehaps that is a really good time to begin to disciple the person by explaining how in reality, salvation is of the Lord.
New people to the faith most likely do not even know any of these things are even an issue, so there is no need to over -react [we can save our over -reacting for our posts here on the PB]

Maybe Jn 1;12-13 is a good section to go over with someone ,as well as romans 10....personally I incorporate romans 10;1-15 in any presentation of it
Just like using eph1;3-11 as well as eph 2:1-10
Don't be so stingy on the verses. turn them loose

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

Perg mentioned meeting those who don't know how to pray, truthfully friend I don't know if anyone truly does all the time.

I'm exasperated and at a loss to talk to the Lord at times, I plod on the best i can but I think it comes from our disposition, one that thinks prayer always has to be eloquent and when you are coming to grips with your wretchedness there is little eloquence to summon.

 

[kvanlaan]

Some previous "Sinner's Prayer"/evangelism throwdowns:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f52/trick-sinners-prayer-28209/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/another-question-about-witnessing-2090/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f23/how-do-you-evangelize-reforming-evangelism-9947/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f71/dr-matt-question-about-wild-boar-quote-13812/ (and the link to the apuritansmind article, which includes the Jonathan Edwards' 'Sinner's Prayer')

http://www.puritanboard.com/f47/close-your-eyes-repeat-prayer-after-me-12423/

http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/sinner-s-prayer-16346/

The only personal addition I might have is this: I saw a previous post talking about how we must be 'constantly reforming'. AGREED, 100%. But taking the historical meaning of that term to heart means ejecting cultural/personal/etc/etc/etc baggage and turning to scripture alone. If that's the context we say it in,

 

[Pergamum]

Perg,
There is a big difference between how you asked the question in post 1
vs. post 17
We have all seen the abuse, and psychological manipulations to get a person to make a verbal commitment to an idea, "just believe" just have faith,etc. with no real concern for the truthfulness of the facts about our lost condition.
The sinners prayer that is used is a caricature of gospel teaching.Some have spoken of it as parrot salvation- The soul winner says;
Repeat after me: Lord I believe I am a sinner,and I do not want to go to hell,so i pray you will save me for Jesus sake,amen.
Friend you have repeated the formula, and now you are saved, once saved always saved, no matter how you live.

Then the sinner says; Um, thats it? I do not have to live a converted life or anything?

The soul winner says, no you have prayed the prayer and now you can just sail through life as a carnal christian. The only sin you can commit is to doubt that you are saved!

So Perg, in post #1 this is what people were reacting to when you use the phrase "sinners prayer"
In post 17 you speak of asking for mercy like those persons described in the gospel accounts. This presupposes a knowledge of sin,and judgment to come. We should all be excited to have a conversation that would end up with us describing prayer to someone who is quite possibly still outside of Christ.
I remember asking God to have mercy upon my soul, as that was what i remember the people did in the gospels in response to the Spirt's convicting work.
As far as what happens if someone says I have accepted Christ.
I think it has already been indicated that pehaps that is a really good time to begin to disciple the person by explaining how in reality, salvation is of the Lord.
New people to the faith most likely do not even know any of these things are even an issue, so there is no need to over -react [we can save our over -reacting for our posts here on the PB]

Maybe Jn 1;12-13 is a good section to go over with someone ,as well as romans 10....personally I incorporate romans 10;1-15 in any presentation of it
Just like using eph1;3-11 as well as eph 2:1-10
Don't be so stingy on the verses. turn them loose

Thanks for the input. Yes, the term "sinner's prayer" is like hanging a kick me sign around one's neck - even when one qualifies it, like I did to some degree (not enough I guess) and then a few posts down, when I give an example of my "sinner's prayer" that I teach others:

"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."


Do you see anything wrong with giving an example such as this? As far as assurances of salvation, these should never be given to anyone,, but as far as given someone a form or an outline when they are still unsaved, it just seems wise, biblical and practical.


One need not buy into all the excesses of Finneyism as they help someone with praying as they first approach Christ.

 

[turmeric]

Sorry, Perg, I was asleep. No, I don't see anything wrong with the prayer you teach people, it's way better than the "sinner's prayer" they use in the States, it seems entirely orthodox. It's true, people who come from other religions often don't know how to pray. They might wonder; what direction should I face, how many times must I bow, how does one address Jesus Christ, should I use beads, it goes on and on. I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching people to pray, or with your sample prayer. May God continue to bless your work!

 

[matthew11v25]

Couple random thoughts:

I find this topic fascinating because it is surrounding evangelism. I cant put my finger on it but there seems to be conflict of pragmatics vs principle (or maybe no conflict at all), such as when someone confesses Christ or says they want to be a Christian...what do you do with them? Since many believers understand the importance of apologetics and dealing with objections but when someone finally says "I Believe!" we may be taken back: "really?".

Obviously they must understand what they confess (such as the gospel, etc). But I believe at some early point a Confessor's/Believer's Prayer (maybe a better way of saying Sinner's Prayer) is in order because Christians must pray and the "how to" may be foreign to people especially from other cultures, etc. By confessors prayer I mean nothing that is a one time thing but primarily continued through out their life. Such as praying for forgiveness, faith, wisdom, etc.

I think everyone agrees that faith is a gift, not earned by a prayer model (it seems we agree to set aside the idea that praying when you confess Christ is NOT the catalyst to becoming a Christian), thus I think is important that if you are going to pray with a budding believer and teach them to pray should also include guiding them to scripture that teaches them such (Lord's prayer).

Again, I have been around people that have confessed Christ but are completely unaware of things like how to pray, etc, as some have much trouble wrapping around their mind around some of the details and "how to" of the faith but believe in the Gospel and Christ. If the church is the body of Christ I do not think we can expect a new Hand on the body to immediately pick up a pencil and start writing, but to be taught and shown...discipled in prayer.

The Sinners Prayer has baggage as a name, but I do think praying with a new confessor/believer is a very biblical thing...nothing like having a brother to help walk you through the intimate aspects of the faith.

 

[Herald]

Brethren, my problems with the sinners prayer is on two fronts: theological and experiential. I am a graduate of the Word of Life Bible Institute in Pottersville, New York. It was founded by the late Jack Wyrtzen. Wyrtzen was a Billy Graham type of evangelist, but was more Wesleyan in his attitude towards separated living. Word of Life presents the gospel through stage productions, street evangelism, youth camps and activity outreaches such as "Scare-Mares" and regional youth rallies. At the end of each activity is usually a "Romans Road" type gospel presentation, a sinners prayer and a call to raise hands. It culminates with a Graham-like altar call. When I was a student at WOLBI I bought into most of this hook, line and sinker. I saw troves of "converts" who were emotionally moved by a Passion Play performance that tugged on their heart strings. They would come up to the stage and meet with student-counselors who would confirm that they "prayed the prayer." We would then get them to fill out their "spiritual birth certificate" and a enroll in a study of the gospel of John by correspondence. As I look back on it my heart is grieved. I told people, "You are now in God's family. You're saved!" God forgive me for my ignorant presumption. How did I know they were saved? On what basis did I make such an authoritative decree? The recidivism rate of these so-called converts was huge. The Word of Life evangelism model only served to dumb down the gospel and make faith in Christ a formula, not on the basis of sola fide. Did God gloriously save people who heard the gospel at WOL events? Absolutely! Is bad soteriology justified because some are saved? Absolutely not!

I don't think it is wrangling over semantics. It doesn't matter whether you are "BR" or "TR." What is the content of the gospel and how is a person saved? In other words, what is the biblical model and how can we best follow it?

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Okay, so it sounds like you object to the abuses that occur when people are taught how to pray.

I too do not like these abuses. The sinner's prayer is not an act that saves, it is a prayer for salvation. Even the Purtians spoke of "closing with Christ."

I don't object to prayer as a means of grace; but as soon as one associates the prayer with "closing with Christ" they have fallen into the very error that Puritan expression was designed to protect against -- formalism. "Closing with Christ" is the personal taking of Christ to be one's prophet, priest, and king, and can in no sense be equated with the repetition of a form of words.

As I did on another thread, yet again I will cite an example of my experiences in fundamentalist circles in Northern Ireland. There are many who think that they are converted just because they have prayed "the sinners prayer", yet these people have not embraced Christ as Saviour and Lord. They think that because they have repeated a set of words that this means they are saved. Consequently, there are many people who visit nightclubs at the weekends, indulge in pre-marital sex, ignore the word of God on just about everything, shun the means of grace, and so on. Yet these people think that they are saved because they have recited a prayer.

Sinners are to be exhorted to seek the Lord and to accept Christ, however, getting them to repeat the sinners prayer is giving them a false hope.

 

[JBaldwin]

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [2] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19,20 ESV)

As I've read through this thread, these verses come to mind. Our call in evangelizing is to make disciples. One of my personal concerns with the reformed church in general is our general lack of concern when it comes to evangelizing. While we sit here and argue over the "sinners prayer" I wonder how many of us (me included) are concerned about finding the lost sheep? Is it not our job to find the sheep that God has called and make disciples of them? And shouldn't we be concerned that there are some out there that haven't heard yet? When we find those sheep "as we are going" we need to instruct them to repent and turn to the Lord, if they want to know what to say, we should, at least, give them some direction.

If we don't follow up with that person in some way to make sure they are being discipled, (and if they are truly converted, it will come out eventually), then we have not fulfilled the command in these verses.

Our problem is that we are so busy teaching, that we haven't taken the time to find out if they have been converted. While those on the other end of the spectrum are so busy making converts that they haven't bothered to find out if they are truly converted.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Thank you, Joshua for posting this...a mighty word.