The sinner's prayer
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moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
Apply this exact question to the situation with Moses and the serpent on the pole. If you were in the crowd with those who were bitten by the snakes, and you had looked at the pole for the cure, what would you say to someone next to you to present the good news of how you were cured? Would it make sense to lead them to do what you're saying here? If so, then it very well may be appropriate. If you would not say this, then what would you say?
Personally, I would encourage them to turn and trust what God said regarding how to get cured, that he does not lie, and that if they turned in faith to look to the snake on the pole, it would work, but they must abandon all other options. If they didn't have faith to look to the pole, but kept their focus on their medicines and physicians, I would tell them that they're going about being delivered in the wrong way, and that they are rejecting the savior that God placed there for them, and that their prayer of "wanting to be saved" and for God to "have mercy on me" lacks trust in the God who they are praying to, for he has already provided for their salvation and has granted them mercy via the pole. Our prayers would then be needed for God to give them faith to believe such and to turn to God's savior up on the pole.
Our assurance in such a one who has turned to trust in Christ originates upon their confession that they have genuinely done so. It rests in the assurance of Christ to keep his promise that, if they come to him, he will not cast them out. We can offer this assurance that Christ offers, that if they genuinely turn to him for salvation, and truly rest their hope only upon him and his merits to stand before the Father in their stead, then he will not leave them or forsake them, and he will own them as his for all eternity.
Blessings!
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What do you think about this? It's a prayer asking for God to show the Truth too:
Iconoclast
Puritan Board Junior
Perg,
There is a big difference between how you asked the question in post 1
vs. post 17
We have all seen the abuse, and psychological manipulations to get a person to make a verbal commitment to an idea, "just believe" just have faith,etc. with no real concern for the truthfulness of the facts about our lost condition.
The sinners prayer that is used is a caricature of gospel teaching.Some have spoken of it as parrot salvation- The soul winner says;
Repeat after me: Lord I believe I am a sinner,and I do not want to go to hell,so i pray you will save me for Jesus sake,amen.
Friend you have repeated the formula, and now you are saved, once saved always saved, no matter how you live.
Then the sinner says; Um, thats it? I do not have to live a converted life or anything?
The soul winner says, no you have prayed the prayer and now you can just sail through life as a carnal christian. The only sin you can commit is to doubt that you are saved!
So Perg, in post #1 this is what people were reacting to when you use the phrase "sinners prayer"
In post 17 you speak of asking for mercy like those persons described in the gospel accounts. This presupposes a knowledge of sin,and judgment to come. We should all be excited to have a conversation that would end up with us describing prayer to someone who is quite possibly still outside of Christ.
I remember asking God to have mercy upon my soul, as that was what i remember the people did in the gospels in response to the Spirt's convicting work.
As far as what happens if someone says I have accepted Christ.
I think it has already been indicated that pehaps that is a really good time to begin to disciple the person by explaining how in reality, salvation is of the Lord.
New people to the faith most likely do not even know any of these things are even an issue, so there is no need to over -react [we can save our over -reacting for our posts here on the PB]
Maybe Jn 1;12-13 is a good section to go over with someone ,as well as romans 10....personally I incorporate romans 10;1-15 in any presentation of it
Just like using eph1;3-11 as well as eph 2:1-10
Don't be so stingy on the verses. turn them loose
Thanks for the input. Yes, the term "sinner's prayer" is like hanging a kick me sign around one's neck - even when one qualifies it, like I did to some degree (not enough I guess) and then a few posts down, when I give an example of my "sinner's prayer" that I teach others:
"Lord,
I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
Do you see anything wrong with giving an example such as this? As far as assurances of salvation, these should never be given to anyone,, but as far as given someone a form or an outline when they are still unsaved, it just seems wise, biblical and practical.
One need not buy into all the excesses of Finneyism as they help someone with praying as they first approach Christ.
Perg,
I do not see anything wrong with this form or attempt to "frame out" how to pray. This is simple yet deals with heart matters. To me alot depends on how much saving truth you have been able to sow.
If the plow of the law has been used to discover personal sin, the idea of a Holy God bringing a 100% righteous judgment on the last day,
It is only proper to point to The Divine remedy, Look and live.
Knowing that God is sovereign , if we are praying to be used in our daily contacts, God will provide salvation many times in spite of us.
Sometimes I think that a meeting has gone well, and yet it does not seem to yield much fruit. Other times I lamented that I did not say this ,or that, and yet later on have found that what God used was not how I would have planned things.
I have recently met a man in the city who is a retired corrections officer with charasmatic tendencies, to say the least. He has a radio program on a spanish station, that has one half hour in english each week that gets broadcast into a local prison.
I listened and taped it a couple of times. Most of the content was theologically defective, He was binding satan,commanding angels to set the prisoners free,[ he never mentioned that they should repent before being set free
] etc.I saw Him the following week. I told Him I had taped the program, and that if he had time I would like to go over it with Him. Instead of just totally ripping into him, I explained that I liked the fact that in a 30 minute program, he was able to offer up alot of good verses,that he read over the air.
I told Him that i liked that he did not shrink back from discussing how God intends to punish sin,and that only those who look to Jesus will be saved.
Although there was much to be critical of, I was very conscious of the fact that he was on the radio,and I was not. He had access to the prisoners and I did not. Planted seed in his mind was the best i could do short term.
I told Him about sermonaudio. He tried it out and came back the following week and said- most all the men on there were..... reformed.
This led to a discussion on the reformation, and the scripture as truthJN17;17
I pointed out that charasmatics seem more interested in going outside the scripture,while all truth is contained in it.
As we began to discuss the scripture my heart sank a bit as he seemed reluctant to want to set aside time to look more closely at spiritual truth.
I have seen him a couple of times since, but I still have learned that until I am doing as much as he is,maybe I have not earned the right to be over-zealous to correct him. I wanted to encourage the parts that were according to truth and plant some seed about what i saw was lacking.
I have to just continue to pray for him that the 1689 confession I gave him will take root in the providence of God.
His radio presentation was positive as he attempted to set forth Jesus as Lord. He seemed to know that there were issues that I would not agree on .
Again far from advocating pragmatism,sometimes we are used to point the way, or maybe to water the seed in someone's life.
As long as you are actively serving Our Lord. I will actively pray for you.
Hopefully , iron sharpens iron, and faithful are the wounds of a friend, but maybe even through the means of heated discussion/debate/rebuke/ ad hominem attacks,repentance,
love covering a multitude of sins we will all make progess in our presentation of truth and our interaction with those we differ with.Perg, you do not have to answer to me or anyone else . To your own master you stand or fall. Sometimes I like the issues you raise, sometimes I am not sure if you are just trying to get a reaction, or if you have a concern for some in here.
If the truth be known, we all have our own little idosyncrasies. Some are very consistent. Some a bit rigid.Some too loose.
As far as the actual form any prayer should take,pray about it, and be trying to reform even this type of basic presentation.
The closer we are to the light of scripture, we dispell darkness.
We need to be careful about how we evaluate Christian work. These sound words from G. I. Williamson's Shorter Catechism study are worth pondering:
matthew11v25
Puritan Board Sophomore
I think you are quoting a mormon teaching on prayer used as part of the mormon testimony. Though I am not sure of your purpose in doing so. Lyrically I am sure we could dig up prayers in various sects that are orthodox in physical word though the one praying may be heretical in doctrine.
Don't you think it is interesting that the form is very similar? Also, there is no "form" in the Scriptures that you can "dig up" that resembles the Sinner's Prayer. The fact that the Sinner's Prayer resembles Moroni 10:3-5 should tell you something.
Is it your contention that the form of the prayer is orthodox then? If so, why doesn't the prayer in Moroni cause Mormons to have the Truth of the Gospel revealed to them?
Is it your contention that the form of the prayer is orthodox then? If so, why doesn't the prayer in Moroni cause Mormons to have the Truth of the Gospel revealed to them?
matthew11v25
Puritan Board Sophomore
It is interesting, but I do not consider them that similiar. The quote I gave from Perg doesnt sound theologically off to me as the mormon quote does. The mormon use of a "sincere heart" "real intent", and "having faith in Christ, he will..." seems in line with the mormon's view of works-salvation and I can imagine, sadly, that many professing Christians would not have a problem with it.
So you don't really agree that we can find pagan prayers that are orthodox? I'm not sure what your position is now.
I actually do see a parallel to the Sinner's prayer here. The assumption with both is that, through the prayer itself, God will show them the Truth and that it will dawn upon them what that Truth is. It assumes that God uses that prayer as a means of Grace to impart saving knowledge in an immediate way:
The orthodox view is that the reading or especially the preaching of the Word performs that function.
I actually do see a parallel to the Sinner's prayer here. The assumption with both is that, through the prayer itself, God will show them the Truth and that it will dawn upon them what that Truth is. It assumes that God uses that prayer as a means of Grace to impart saving knowledge in an immediate way:
By immediate, I mean to imply "without medium". There is a neo-Gnostic assumption about how God's Spirit functions in both cases.
The orthodox view is that the reading or especially the preaching of the Word performs that function.
matthew11v25
Puritan Board Sophomore
I do believe we can find prayers by pagans that are lyrically sound.
Just realized you edited a prior post so let me address that:
I would agree that a prayer modeled in a works-salvation format is unbiblical. I am fine with the form I quoted above because it is in my estimate a petition for repentance and faith. I may have forgotten what I wrote previously but I do not believe I spent much time on "form".
What do you consider unbiblical regarding the form in the quote I provided below?
I may have not made it clear before but I am not in agreement with the idea that any prayer by man brings or initiates salvation.
I originally addressed this quote by perg:
"Lord,
I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
what do you see that is unbiblical with this prayer?
Just realized you edited a prior post so let me address that:
I would agree that a prayer modeled in a works-salvation format is unbiblical. I am fine with the form I quoted above because it is in my estimate a petition for repentance and faith. I may have forgotten what I wrote previously but I do not believe I spent much time on "form".
What do you consider unbiblical regarding the form in the quote I provided below?
I may have not made it clear before but I am not in agreement with the idea that any prayer by man brings or initiates salvation.
I originally addressed this quote by perg:
"Lord,
I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might believe in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."
what do you see that is unbiblical with this prayer?
I already addressed what I see wrong in it. It assumes an immediate work of illumination rather than through the preaching or reading of the Word of God. How, precisely, do you believe God illumines the mind of the praying party in this case?
Yes, exactly.
An example: A___ is a new believer from the religion of peace. After confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord he begins his Christian life. Three months later, his newborn dies. He comes to the missionary and asks, "In Islam we have a prayer to repeat for everything, what prayer do I recite to take away this pain..."
A sad but true case that demonstrates that we are not just to describe prayer to new believers but we can actually lead new believers in prayer and guide them into praying themselvles, all the while resisting any misconceptions that prayer works the same as a mantra or a ritual that mechanical "does something".
Looks awesome brother! I wish I could download this, but cannot from where I am at. Is there a dvd that this is drawn from?
Great reply, brother.
Some thoughts:
If something is Biblical, isn't it also practical? If it is Biblical, we need not worry whether it will not "work" right? The Bible is immensely pragmatic.
Also, looking into methodologies and not merely theoretizing does not mean that one has fallen into pragmatism.
The principles are the foundation that God has given us to develop strategies to reach people, to present a clear message, etc. Being practical and zealous and enthusiastic does not mean one has fallen away from the principles - only that they rightly see that the principles are there for us to build our work upon. Now, a house with no foundation will fall, and arminian evangelism falls into this category. But a well formed foundation with no walls or building, well that is also an error.
I think you are right. The Sinner's Prayer terminology causes people to have quite a heated reaction. Perhaps your terminology would be better to avoid the baggage. I fear that out of reaction to the Arminians that some may be tempted not to model prayer and even teach the specifics of prayer to new believers.
Thanks for the post.
That sounds very good too, Rich.
Jesus says knock and it will be opened to you, and the way in the Greek (and I am NO expert in Greek) does seem to speak of not merely a single knocking.
So to pray for truth is to keep knocking. And if one keeps knocking for the right reasons, it does appear the says that it will be opened.
It does some that totally unchurched people sometimes do need a model of what prayer is, and often the simpler the better at first.
Rich:
We can and should pray for greater illumination. We can and should pray that God would grant us true faith and true repentance. We can and should pray that God would show us the truth.
The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, doesn't it? We are told to pray for many things great and small....does true faith, true repentnace, our verysouls somehow slip through a loophole or something?
And if we pray for salvation, isn't this indicative of God moving in us already? And if so, won't he illuminate us by contact with the Word or a preacher?
Rich, let me ask you: If a man with a sincere heart and true intent really does pray for God to save them, will God not save them?
It appears the you tried to bait me with the Moronic Prayer, and it appears that you might not like all the "sincere heart" business - but will God deny a man who is truly seeking the Lord? Of course, if He is truly seeking the Lord, the Lord is already moving, so why object when a seeker proclaims the desires of his heart?
Again, the models of prayer that I gave in no way guaranteed salvation to those who mouthed the words.
We can and should pray for greater illumination. We can and should pray that God would grant us true faith and true repentance. We can and should pray that God would show us the truth.
The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, doesn't it? We are told to pray for many things great and small....does true faith, true repentnace, our verysouls somehow slip through a loophole or something?
And if we pray for salvation, isn't this indicative of God moving in us already? And if so, won't he illuminate us by contact with the Word or a preacher?
Rich, let me ask you: If a man with a sincere heart and true intent really does pray for God to save them, will God not save them?
It appears the you tried to bait me with the Moronic Prayer, and it appears that you might not like all the "sincere heart" business - but will God deny a man who is truly seeking the Lord? Of course, if He is truly seeking the Lord, the Lord is already moving, so why object when a seeker proclaims the desires of his heart?
Again, the models of prayer that I gave in no way guaranteed salvation to those who mouthed the words.
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
I speak with little wisdom, and a lot less learning then about 99% of those on this board, but after reading all 50,000!! of the replies(I've never been part of a forum this big and intense), I felt I earned the right to reply.
If the issue here is, can one be saved by the sinners prayer, I believe that has already been put to rest through the contradictions of many here. You say that faith is a gift, repentance is from the heart, ect... Very good then. Saying the sinners prayer does not save you, nor can it hinder you. I am not a fan of it by any means, but who is the Ruler of hearts? You or God? Who knows what is happening in the heart of those who are praying! We tell them to repeat words. Their mouth repeats, but God transforms the heart! It doesn't really matter how it has been abused, for the Sovereign Lord will save those whom He will, and that is that.
Now, if the issue is whether it is Biblical or not, what can be said here? It is not Biblical, but it is not prohibited by Scripture. There are many things done by the saints that are not "Biblical", but they do not dishonor or mar the name of Christ. Is it not the same with this prayer(though some may argue it does mar)? But my point is the same as before. I spent an entire semester in college taking an evangelism class that taught us about "methods" and the such. I hated the class, and though it was worthless, I came away better off. It is not us who saves. It is not our way of preaching. We agonize over technicalities such as the sinners prayer, but it is He who saves. Did not Jesus Himself say, "He who is for me is not against me"? Check out Mark 9:38-41
I do not presume to know more then any of you, but watching the bashing going on(and I am very sensitive to things like this) I felt I should reply. Now, do two things with it, throw it out and intellectually obliterate me(which is not that hard), or lets sit back and speak of the grace of our Saviour, who does not require prayers nor anything else to save us.
Securely His,
Ian K.
If the issue here is, can one be saved by the sinners prayer, I believe that has already been put to rest through the contradictions of many here. You say that faith is a gift, repentance is from the heart, ect... Very good then. Saying the sinners prayer does not save you, nor can it hinder you. I am not a fan of it by any means, but who is the Ruler of hearts? You or God? Who knows what is happening in the heart of those who are praying! We tell them to repeat words. Their mouth repeats, but God transforms the heart! It doesn't really matter how it has been abused, for the Sovereign Lord will save those whom He will, and that is that.
Now, if the issue is whether it is Biblical or not, what can be said here? It is not Biblical, but it is not prohibited by Scripture. There are many things done by the saints that are not "Biblical", but they do not dishonor or mar the name of Christ. Is it not the same with this prayer(though some may argue it does mar)? But my point is the same as before. I spent an entire semester in college taking an evangelism class that taught us about "methods" and the such. I hated the class, and though it was worthless, I came away better off. It is not us who saves. It is not our way of preaching. We agonize over technicalities such as the sinners prayer, but it is He who saves. Did not Jesus Himself say, "He who is for me is not against me"? Check out Mark 9:38-41
I do not presume to know more then any of you, but watching the bashing going on(and I am very sensitive to things like this) I felt I should reply. Now, do two things with it, throw it out and intellectually obliterate me(which is not that hard), or lets sit back and speak of the grace of our Saviour, who does not require prayers nor anything else to save us.
Securely His,
Ian K.
Again, you should ask yourself: if the prayer itself provides illumination toward the end you're talking about then why don't we support Mormon missionaries who are essentially encouraging people to pray to ask Christ to illumine their hearts and for God to reveal Himself to them? Inadvertently, are they not Christian missionaries in your view since there might be some earnest men out there praying for such salvation and illumination?
In fact, since you believe the prayer from Moroni is essentially sound, why doesn't it produce conversions to true Christianity?
I think what you're missing here is that these type of prayers give away an underlying assumption that God's revelation to us works immediately, apart from the Word itself. Now, I don't have a problem with praying to God, before the studying or the preaching of the Word to ask that He would open our eyes to the Truth therein but I believe it is the Word that God has revealed is His means to the end you keep talking about. You insist it is prayer. Show me in the Scriptures where this is the case. Don't merely assert it. Demonstrate it. If you cannot substantiate the insistence that God makes men wise unto salvation through prayer then what are we debating here?
Huh?
When did I ever say that the prayer works without the Word? Show me.
The pretty good sounding Moroni prayer is, in fact, a pretty good sounding prayer - but to a Christ that is not God of very God.
Of course, when a seeker comes and wants salvation, the basics of the Gospel will be told to them. Follow up will be done. In fact, in model prayers where I help people to pray I usually stress that Jesus is the God man, both fully God and fully man.
Again, what do you see objectionable about my practice?
Perhaps I should not have entitled the thread the "Sinner's Prayer" due to the baggage involved and the knee jerk reactions that it would gather. But, I want to assert that we should model prayer and not merely speak of the importance of prayer but even be willing to show sinners how to pray, have them practice praying and describe in detail the elements of prayer.
Two Biblical models to teach people to pray would be the Lukan publican, "Lord have mercy on me a sinner..." (wait, no mention of Scripture was involved here and yet he went away justified) and the Lord's Prayer itself. Romans 10 does speak of confession being made with the mouth. And for immersionists, this confession and profession of faith precedes baptism.
Prayer is important, isn't it? God coordinates his providence in such a way that there are "results" that often even occur after prayers, right?
My question to you then: Should we pray for our salvation? What is wrong with praying for illumination, for truth, for greater light, for Christ to show Himself to us, for God to grant us true faithand true repentnce?
You are trying to create a false dichotomy, as if my practice somehow ignores Scripture.
This is not a substitute for Bible reading or trying to hear the Gospel from others. However, if someone truly desires salvation, then they will knock so that the door may be opened to them. And if they are truly knocking then they will be knocking on the right door and with the right means, that is prayer and study of the Scripture.
If the old woman convinced the unjust judge to act in her favor, then the Lord - rich in mercy - will be quick to answer the prayers of all that He Himself is moving to prayer for salvation.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
For consideration:
Philippians 1:18-20
18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.
Philippians 1:18-20
18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.
Prayer is important, Pergamum. What I'm making sure we distinguish here what its function here, especially as related to the OP.
I asked what are we debating here because I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Some are making a general rule that, somehow, the prayer itself revives the mind and that God uses immediate revelation to make His Gospel known to the person by the asking apart from the mediation of the Word toward that end.
You sort of set this thread off on a bad foot and it's been hard for me to shift trails, especially since there is so much misunderstanding about prayer that has been mixed up over time. You initially asked:
If the person does not know Christ, and that was the intent of your OP then I don't agree with it. If they had a desire to know Christ, I would start by praying with them that, as you opened the Word with them, that the Spirit would illumine their hearts and minds through the Word. I would then proclaim the Gospel to them. Either open up the Word to them or speak the Truth of it to them. In this case, this is not the "Sinner's Prayer" but it is a request that God attend His Word with salvation. I have no problem with this.
If, on the other hand, you had a person who was already a believer coming to you then I would not use the "Sinner's Prayer" either. Why? There are better models for prayer not the least of which is the answer Christ gave to the same question. I would rather teach them through the Lord's prayer and note some of the elements there. I might also integrate some other examples of prayer and include some devotional thoughts on the Ten Commandments, the Apostle's Creed, and such as elemetns to teach them how to pray.
So, if you're asking me about the Sinner's Prayer, by itself, which is what this thread was about initially and has never really departed from, then I remain unconvinced that it stands alone as a good prayer to give to someone who is coming to me to ask me how to pray either for conversion or for devotion/supplication.
You keep wanting to back into the Sinner's Prayer and convince me that there are examples in the Scriptures of prayers that look like the Sinner's Prayer but just because there are certain resemblances does not mean that the situations are compatible with the original question nor do some of the examples from the parables give a didactic pattern for prayer but are offered in the course of a narrative as an example of contrition vs. hypocrisy or about earnestness. I believe strongly that prayer ought to be both so I have no problem with any of the examples of prayer in the Scriptures but neither do they teach then that this is the pattern for prayer when someone asks us how to pray.
I asked what are we debating here because I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Some are making a general rule that, somehow, the prayer itself revives the mind and that God uses immediate revelation to make His Gospel known to the person by the asking apart from the mediation of the Word toward that end.
You sort of set this thread off on a bad foot and it's been hard for me to shift trails, especially since there is so much misunderstanding about prayer that has been mixed up over time. You initially asked:
I don't know why that would immediately come to your mind to think of the Sinner's Prayer.Pergamum said:
If the person does not know Christ, and that was the intent of your OP then I don't agree with it. If they had a desire to know Christ, I would start by praying with them that, as you opened the Word with them, that the Spirit would illumine their hearts and minds through the Word. I would then proclaim the Gospel to them. Either open up the Word to them or speak the Truth of it to them. In this case, this is not the "Sinner's Prayer" but it is a request that God attend His Word with salvation. I have no problem with this.
If, on the other hand, you had a person who was already a believer coming to you then I would not use the "Sinner's Prayer" either. Why? There are better models for prayer not the least of which is the answer Christ gave to the same question. I would rather teach them through the Lord's prayer and note some of the elements there. I might also integrate some other examples of prayer and include some devotional thoughts on the Ten Commandments, the Apostle's Creed, and such as elemetns to teach them how to pray.
So, if you're asking me about the Sinner's Prayer, by itself, which is what this thread was about initially and has never really departed from, then I remain unconvinced that it stands alone as a good prayer to give to someone who is coming to me to ask me how to pray either for conversion or for devotion/supplication.
You keep wanting to back into the Sinner's Prayer and convince me that there are examples in the Scriptures of prayers that look like the Sinner's Prayer but just because there are certain resemblances does not mean that the situations are compatible with the original question nor do some of the examples from the parables give a didactic pattern for prayer but are offered in the course of a narrative as an example of contrition vs. hypocrisy or about earnestness. I believe strongly that prayer ought to be both so I have no problem with any of the examples of prayer in the Scriptures but neither do they teach then that this is the pattern for prayer when someone asks us how to pray.
Maybe the term "Sinners Prayer" has too much baggage.
I should rephrase: I have people asking me to teach them how to pray and the form of the prayer I give (when I do not give the Lord's Prayer or the prayer of the publican in Luke, "Have mercy on me, a sinner") very much resembles what passes for the sinner's prayer by most.
Of course, it appears from this thread that the false promises of assurance are usally tied up with this sinner's prayer and this is far from my practice. However, the basic info is much the same.
So, perhaps the baggage of the term is just too strong.
I should rephrase: I have people asking me to teach them how to pray and the form of the prayer I give (when I do not give the Lord's Prayer or the prayer of the publican in Luke, "Have mercy on me, a sinner") very much resembles what passes for the sinner's prayer by most.
Of course, it appears from this thread that the false promises of assurance are usally tied up with this sinner's prayer and this is far from my practice. However, the basic info is much the same.
So, perhaps the baggage of the term is just too strong.
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