The Trinity

[Osage Bluestem]

I have been noticing that a lot of "christian" groups are rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity these days because they claim it isn't scriptural and was created by the Roman Catholics. This is especially true on some of the general christian discussion forums.

I have a couple of questions.

1. Are those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity still to be called Christians?
2. What is the best apologetic book you know of on the Trinity?
3. How do we best approach the subject when engaged in dialog with a non-trinitarian?
4. What is your understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity?
5. Does anyone here have a case against the Trinity?

 

[py3ak]

1. Are those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity still to be called Christians?

No. With great emphasis. If you are not Trinitarian, you are not Christian.

2. What is the best apologetic book you know of on the Trinity?

I don't know that I could pick a clear winner. You might want to check out Calvin's Institutes, Book 1, Chapter 13.

3. How do we best approach the subject when engaged in dialog with a non-trinitarian?

It might depend on the non-trinitarian. For instance, an ebionite I once met didn't value the NT as highly as the OT, so with someone like that you have to go with OT indications of plurality like Isaiah 48:16, Zechariah 2:10,11; and the OT predictions of a divine saviour. Once he sees that the NT doesn't contradict the OT, he might be more amenable to hearing that testimony. But for a JW you might want to simply camp out in Revelation.

4. What is your understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity?

The Athanasian Creed:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;​

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.​

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;​

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.​

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.​

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.​

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.​

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.​

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.​

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.​

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.​

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.​

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.​

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.​

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;​

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.​

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;​

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.​

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;​

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.​

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.​

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.​

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.​

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.​

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.​

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.​

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.​

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.​

​

​

5. Does anyone here have a case against the Trinity?

If anyone on this board does have a case against the Trinity, please do the honourable thing and leave the board immediately. This is a Christian forum.

 

[Skyler]

2. What is the best apologetic book you know of on the Trinity?

I just finished reading James White's "The Forgotten Trinity". While not necessarily aimed at apologetics, it does a great job of breaking down the Trinity for the average Christian. You might want to check it out.

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

I think there are many in the pews today who are practical modalists, simply because they haven't studied the issues or are just sloppy with their theological thinking, . . . which should be taken as a motivation to teach on the subject.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Have you guys ever read Thomas Aquinas' writings on the Trinity from the Suma Theologica he wrote? I thought he did a great job of explaining it. He said that the Son is the full self knowledge of the Father and the Holy Spirit is the full knowledge of mutual love between the two.

I think it is a neglected doctrine though. It is not preached on very often and it seems few write about it either. Soteriology seems to dominate.

---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

1. Are those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity still to be called Christians?

No. With great emphasis. If you are not Trinitarian, you are not Christian.

If anyone on this board does have a case against the Trinity, please do the honourable thing and leave the board immediately. This is a Christian forum.

That was a major question of mine. There are a lot of pentacostals these days who are non-trinitarian and still call themselves Christian. As a matter of fact I work with one who is ver active in his church. He told me that the Trinity is a false doctrine. Also I see a lot of non-trinitarians on other general christian boards trying to argue against the trinity. I didn't think we could really call them Christians since they can't have a real knowledge of God the way he is revealed in the scriptures.

This heresy was the reason for the Servetus issue we Calvinists always hear so much about wasn't it?

PS: Your moniker is odd. When ever I read it I always want to call you Pyewackit.

 

[reformedminister]

The denial of the doctrine of the trinity is usually only the beginning of heresy. For example, the Oneness Pentecostals may be labeled as Christian by some, but they deny not only the Trinity but the essential gospel itself, teaching a doctrine of salvation by works. I believe there may be sincere "Christians" confused and found among these groups. However, I believe that the groups themselves are NOT CHRISTIAN!

 

[Curt]

The denial of the doctrine of the trinity is usually only the beginning of heresy. For example, the Oneness Pentecostals may be labeled as Christian by some, but they deny not only the Trinity but the essential gospel itself, teaching a doctrine of salvation by works. I believe there may be sincere "Christians" confused and found among these groups. However, I believe that the groups themselves are NOT CHRISTIAN!

 

[py3ak]

Have you guys ever read Thomas Aquinas' writings on the Trinity from the Suma Theologica he wrote? I thought he did a great job of explaining it. He said that the Son is the full self knowledge of the Father and the Holy Spirit is the full knowledge of mutual love between the two.

Yes, I've read and enjoyed Aquinas on the Trinity. However, with regard to the difference in mode of proceeding between the Father and the Son, I think that Riissen is probably closer to the truth, and that his criticism should certainly be taken into account:

What the difference is between generation of the Son and the procession of the H. Spirit cannot be explained and it is safer not to know than to enquire into it. The Scholastics would look for the difference in the operation of intellectus and voluntas, so that the generation of the Son is brought about by means of intellectus, whence he is called the wisdom of God; but procession by means of voluntas, whence it is called love and charity. But as this is said without Scripture, it involves rather than explains matters. Those talk more sanely, who babbling in such a difficult matter find the distinction in three things. (1) In principle: because the Son emanates from the Father alone, but the H. Spirit from Father and Son at once. (2) In mode: because the Son emanates per vim generationis, which culminates not only in personality but also in likeness, on account of which the Son is called the image of the Father and according to which the Son receives the property of communicating the same essence to another person. But the Spirit does so by spiratio, which ends only in personality, and through which the person who proceeds does not receive the property of communicating that essence to another. (3) In order: because as the Son is the second person, but the H. Spirit the third, generation by our way of thinking, precedes spiratio, although really they are co-eternal.

(Riissen Francisci Turretini Compendium Theologiae didactico-elencticae ex theologorum nostrorum Institutionibus auctum et illustratum. Amsterdam IV, 14, quoted in Heppe, Reformed Dogmatics)

I think it is a neglected doctrine though. It is not preached on very often and it seems few write about it either. Soteriology seems to dominate.

I understand your feelings, and think that we could certainly do better about following the Athanasian creed by consciously worshipping Unity in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. However, it is also worth bearing in mind that the theology God has given us is not for the purpose of satisfying our curiosity, but to glorify Him and to lead us in the way to eternal life.

That was a major question of mine. There are a lot of pentacostals these days who are non-trinitarian and still call themselves Christian. As a matter of fact I work with one who is ver active in his church. He told me that the Trinity is a false doctrine. Also I see a lot of non-trinitarians on other general christian boards trying to argue against the trinity. I didn't think we could really call them Christians since they can't have a real knowledge of God the way he is revealed in the scriptures.

Well, the name isn't under a copyright, so far as I know, so people are legally free to use it. But if you don't believe in the Christian God, how are you a Christian?

This heresy was the reason for the Servetus issue we Calvinists always hear so much about wasn't it?

Servetus denied the Trinity and engaged in abominable blasphemy, which I won't repeat here, about that doctrine.

PS: Your moniker is odd. When ever I read it I always want to call you Pyewackit.

That is certainly a unique pronunciation, though not without its charm. The common pronunciation is PIE-thrak.

 

[Andres]

I have not read it yet, but I would recommend this book. Dr. Letham is a WTS grad and pastored an OPC church.
Amazon.com: The Holy Trinity: In Scripture, History, Theology And Worship (9780875520001): Robert Letham: Books

Something that I have gone through and found very beneficial was Covenant Seminary's Worldwide Classroom. The course God and His Word has 4 lectures on the Trinity. Excellent stuff.

 

[py3ak]

I have not read it yet, but I would recommend this book. Dr. Letham is a WTS grad and pastored an OPC church.
Amazon.com: The Holy Trinity: In Scripture, History, Theology And Worship (9780875520001): Robert Letham: Books

I have read it, and I would recommend against it. Gregory Nazianzen's Theological Orations would stand you in better stead.