The Unsaved Desiring God?

[sevenzedek]

In an effort to avoid more controversy, I concede to the idea that when I say unbelievers desire God I really mean to say that they desire his blessings. But allow me to once more to explain why I say they desire God.

When we consider the two adulterers coming together to know each other intimately, I say they are enjoying an aspect of God's nature in an unlawful manner. Relationship is something intrinsic to God. God IS relationship. The members of the Trinity have relationship. Although the adulterers are not enjoying all there is to enjoy in their perverted relationship and lack love in their heinous act, there is still an element of their behavior that finds it's origin in God himself. They enjoy a faint glimmer of his beauty. And I say this is why they deserve hell.

So, while I did assert that unbelievers do desire God, I DID NOT AND DO NOT SAY THAT UNBELIEVERS DESIRE GOD AS GOD.

I am sure many of you would have me say that unbelievers desire God's blessings rather than have me say they desire God.

Maybe this is a conversation better suited to one that concerns the glory of God. What is God's glory and how much of his person is in his glory? And if his person is reflected at all in anything that reflects his glory, do unregenerate people enjoy that?

 

[Zach]

This is thread is really making me think and I'm appreciative of you who are responding. It is also making me examine myself, which is good, and ask the ultimate question, "Do I desire God?"

Are all people ultimately seeking joy that can only be found in Christ?

I have also been contemplating this with regard to my own heart. The answer is, "not enough".

I am right there with you, brother.

Are all people ultimately seeking joy that can only be found in Christ?

I don't believe all are. Yet, at the same time they are. I think unregenerate men would like to have many things Christ offers. They would like peace, relationship, pleasures, joy; all of which have their existence from the person of God because he is happy and he is relationship. They just don't want all of him. I think people may be hearing me say that unregenerate people desire ALL OF God when they see me saying that I think unregenerate people desire and enjoy God.

It seems rather urgent that I emphasis this at this point. I am getting the feeling that others on the board are seeing my comments as the enemy of orthodoxy when I still think I am in agreement with it.

This is where it is really hard. I think when the unbeliever is seeking blessing that can only be found in God what they are seeking, though they do not know it and still hate him, is in some sense God himself. Obviously, they do not want God as the Lord of their life and would take just his blessings if they could. Nevertheless, they still want what can only found if they have him as their God.

 

[Randy in Tulsa]

According to the Westminster Confession, Chapter 6:

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

Rowland Ward's Modern English version (in pertinent part) gets at the question in the OP a bit more clearly: "The original corruption makes us completely disinclined, incapacitated and opposed to all spiritual good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

 

[sevenzedek]

I apologize to everyone for muddying the theological waters with my untrained theological thoughts. I do realize that much confusion can be avoided by not saying that unbelievers desire God and to instead say that they just want his blessings.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

The only way Piper's saying could seem to be acceptable is if he were talking of the elect yet uncalled, and even then I don't know if it is acceptable. For even the elect are dead in trespasses and sins, enemies of God, until they are regenerated; consider Saul of Tarsus. And yet in John 18:37, in His testimony to Pilate Jesus said, "To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." Does this mean that the elect – those that are "of the truth" – do long for, desire, the Shepherd's voice? You'll note in the verses below Jesus said "he that doeth truth cometh to the light". I remember when I was saved, I hated the words of the Gospel that were being preached to me – "Jesus died on the cross for your sins" – but when the Spirit of Christ shone into my heart bearing witness that He did indeed, and was God, and loved me, I then loved Him and cleaved to Him, or perhaps it is better said, He cleaved to me. I was turned from an enemy to a beloved child in an instant.

But of the reprobate, it is written there is a hatred that the light doesn't melt and remove, but rather antagonizes and causes it to erupt into implacable, violent opposition.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

These things are nuanced, and if presented carefully, are clear.

 

[Zach]

The Scripture presented by Steve and Joshua has convinced me that I was wrong on my earlier take on this discussion. While the unregenerate man does desire many things found only in God I think Scripture is clear that this is not a desire for God himself in Christ as I said it was earlier. Until regeneration, I do not see any Scripture that unregenerate men are capable of anything but hatred of God.

 

[sevenzedek]

The Scripture presented by Steve and Joshua has convinced me that I was wrong on my earlier take on this discussion. While the unregenerate man does desire many things found only in God I think Scripture is clear that this is not a desire for God himself in Christ as I said it was earlier. Until regeneration, I do not see any Scripture that unregenerate men are capable of anything but hatred of God.

From the beginning of this thread I have believed that unregenerate men are not capable of anything but hatred of God. This begs the question: what have I been saying all this time?

I am okay letting the discussion resolve on the preferred notes. However, maybe someone could tell me what is the orthodox way of speaking about how unregenerate people enjoy God's blessings. If they are not enjoying something of God in his blessings, then what are they enjoying in his blessings?

GOD'S ENJOYED BLESSINGS = evidences of the person of God enjoyed by the unregenerate; evidences held and in unrighteousness; evidences of that which may be known of God because God hath shewed it unto them; evidences exchanged for a lie; evidences enjoyed; and, of course, evidences hated because they hate God

What does the bible say about this?

 

[JOwen]

I think Dr. Piper is exactly right, actually. Which unsaved people don't want peace in their hearts? Which don't want to be loved? Which don't want to last forever in prosperity? Which don't want joy? The unsaved long for and seek after these things that can only be found in Christ, but because of the idolatrous nature of their hearts they reject God's way--the only--to these blessings and so try to gain them by other means. There are true ways that the unregenerate know and don't know God, and I believe it is true to say that if we are salt and light in this world they will want what we have, even if their wanting is purely subconscious. Their soul will long for the great inheritance we have inherited and the benefits therein, and yet they will remain unsatisfied until they repent and believe.

What is being describes in the passages quoted are the marks of the regenerate and none other. These longings can only be experienced by the soul born from above. The natural mind does not want "peace" as the Lord gives it, "love" as the Lord gives it, "prosperity" as the Lord gives it, "joy" as the Lord gives it etc. Why? Because at heart, the "carnal mind is enmity against God", and "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". The unregenerate share absolutely nothing with the child of God when it comes to the beatitudes (Read Pink, Lloyd-Jones). The unregenerate's longings are real, yes, but carnal and selfish, born out of myopic need. There is absolutely no correlative or "subconscious" desiring of what strictly belongs to the believer by the sovereign work of the Spirit. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." (Romans 8:5) In other words, if they desire these things, they are already born from above.

Kind regards,

 

[Zach]

The Scripture presented by Steve and Joshua has convinced me that I was wrong on my earlier take on this discussion. While the unregenerate man does desire many things found only in God I think Scripture is clear that this is not a desire for God himself in Christ as I said it was earlier. Until regeneration, I do not see any Scripture that unregenerate men are capable of anything but hatred of God.

From the beginning of this thread I have believed that unregenerate men are not capable of anything but hatred of God. This begs the question: what have I been saying all this time?

I am okay letting the discussion resolve on the preferred notes. However, maybe someone could tell me what is the orthodox way of speaking about how unregenerate people enjoy God's blessings. If they are not enjoying something of God in his blessings, then what are they enjoying in his blessings?

GOD'S ENJOYED BLESSINGS = evidences of the person of God enjoyed by the unregenerate; evidences held and in unrighteousness; evidences of that which may be known of God because God hath shewed it unto them; evidences exchanged for a lie; evidences enjoyed; and, of course, evidences hated because they hate God

What does the bible say about this?

When I was asking myself the same question, Jon, I couldn't really couldn't reconcile what I was trying to argue with the reality of our complete deadness in our sins, which we both obviously affirm. I'm looking forward to the replies to your question about what exactly God's enjoyed blessings by the unregenerate are and I think you are off to a good start with your list.

 

[py3ak]

Haggai 2:7.

 

[iainduguid]

Haggai 2:7 is probably not where you want to go with this. The KJV, following the Vulgate, indeed translates "The desire of all nations shall come" but this is grammatically impossible since the verb ("come") is plural. Most modern versions (apart from the NIV, funnily enough) therefore translate as something like "The treasures of all nations shall come", which fits contextually with the claim the Lord has just made that the silver and gold that the nations own belongs to him and he will bring it back to his temple to fill the void that was there in Haggai's own day.

That doesn't directly address the main question of this thread. OT passages certainly look forward to a day when all nations will delight in the Lord and stream to his house, but that seems to me to have more to do with the category of "elect but presently unsaved" than a less nuanced "unsaved people who have a desire for God."

 

[py3ak]

He afterwards adds, The desire of all nations. This admits of two explanations. The first is, that nations shall come and bring with them everything that is precious, in order to consecrate it to the service of God; for the Hebrews call whatever is valuable a desire; so that under this term they include all riches, honors, pleasures, and everything of this kind. Hence some render the passage thus, I will shake all nations, and come shall the desire of all nations. As there is a change of number; others will have beth, or mem, to be understood, They shall come with what they desire; that is, the nations shall not come empty, but shall gather all their treasures to be a holy oblation to God. But we may understand what he says of Christ, Come shall the desire of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory. We indeed know that Christ was the expectation of the whole world, according to what is said by Isaiah. And it may be properly said, that when the desire of all nations shall come, that is, when Christ shall be manifested, in whom the wishes of all ought to center, the glory of the second Temple shall then be illustrious; but as it immediately follows, Mine is the silver, and mine is the gold, the more simple meaning is that which I first stated — that the nations would come, bringing with them all their riches, that they might offer themselves and all their possessions as a sacrifice to God.

- Calvin, in loco

 

[iainduguid]

Calvin is aware of the difficulty caused by the change in number of the verb (singular to plural) for the traditional translation (which for him was the Vulgate, of course, not the KJV), which is why he prefers the modern translation as "the more simple meaning". So I understand Calvin to be explaining why the Vulgate translated it as it did (taking this shaking to be a parallel reference to the other passages in the OT that anticipate the nations coming to Christ). I agree that that is almost certainly the thought in the translator's mind. However, I still don't see how it is actually possible for a direct reference to the coming of Christ to go with a plural verb. Functionally, what the Vulgate and the KJV have done here is conjecturally emend the Hebrew text. It seems more plausible to supply a beth or a mem and have the nations bringing their desirable things, as some in Calvin's day suggested and he concurred, and as the NASV translates. But it is simpler still to read the desirable things as the subject of the verb, and see this as a reference to the ultimate plundering of the nations by God, another common theme in the prophets. Of course, that does raise questions about the Scriptural basis of lines in some Christmas carols, but that's a whole other post.

 

[py3ak]

Thank you for expanding on the proper rendition of the verse, Professor Duguid. My goal in citing Calvin was to point out that within our Christian tradition, including Calvin and the AV, there is a basis for a use of language along the lines of what Dr. Piper and our brother Jon have done. This is important to bear in mind for any thorough discussion of the question. It is not enough, in arguing a position, to make a positive case for a particular point of view, as has been done on this thread from Romans 8:7 and other passages. As Augustine, Aquinas, Davenant, and Turretin all exemplify in their various ways, objections and exceptions must also be addressed.

 

[sevenzedek]

It is not enough, in arguing a position, to make a positive case for a particular point of view, as has been done on this thread from Romans 8:7 and other passages. …objections and exceptions must also be addressed.

I vigorously agree with much zeal and charitable fervor near unto impatience; not only with your statement, but with the admirable stances made for orthodoxy thus far. And that ain't no joke, brother.

Now, when do get to this?

…maybe someone could tell me what is the orthodox way of speaking about how unregenerate people enjoy God's blessings. If they are not enjoying something of God in his blessings, then what are they enjoying in his blessings?

GOD'S ENJOYED BLESSINGS = evidences of the person of God enjoyed by the unregenerate; evidences held in unrighteousness; evidences of that which may be known of God because God hath shewed it unto them; evidences exchanged for a lie; evidences enjoyed; and, of course, evidences hated because they hate God

What does the bible say about this?

Is it ever proper to say that unregenerate God haters enjoy any aspects of God? Would there be anything for them to enjoy if there were no God of glory and blessings in the very first place? They enjoy God, but hate him. Such are the desires of a hypocrite in need of a new heart that they may come all the way to Christ. Many will not call upon his name while he is near. They confess his glory in their enjoyment of a glass of water, but deny him the glory due his name and say, "Look what my hands have wrought for myself."

 

[Loopie]

Is it ever proper to say that unregenerate God haters enjoy any aspects of God? Would there be anything for them to enjoy if there were no God of glory and blessings in the very first place? They enjoy God, but hate him. Such are the desires of a hypocrite in need of a new heart that they may come all the way to Christ. Many will not call upon his name while he is near. They confess his glory in their enjoyment of a glass of water, but deny him the glory due his name and say, "Look what my hands have wrought for myself."

Jon, if I may I would like to step in here and offer just a few thoughts. I honestly believe that it is improper to say that the unregenerate enjoy God as God. They enjoy the results of his actions, and they enjoy the work of his hands, but they do not enjoy HIM. I mean, it would seem that to enjoy someone implies some sort of close relationship to them. I can say that I enjoy my close friends because I enjoy fellowship with them.

By making that careful distinction I think we can be more accurate. I think it would be wrong to equate the results or works of someone with the person themselves. God has granted blessings to both the wicked and the righteous. The sun shines on them both, and rain falls on them both. No doubt the Canaanites and Amorites enjoyed the life that God gave them. God demonstrated his common grace by waiting until their iniquity was complete before bringing his judgment upon them. In that scenario those unregenerate people were enjoying the results of God's actions, and the works of his hands. The fact that they were eating and drinking is enough to say that they enjoyed the works of his hands (which is all of creation). Yet they were not enjoying God himself. God is not to be equated with creation. God is the Creator, and the author and creator of all things, but we must be careful to distinguish between God himself and the things that come from God.

In the end I would say that the unregenerate enjoy what God has provided, but they do not enjoy him. They reject him, and suppress the knowledge that those things come from him.

As for your question about what if there were no God, I would say that if God did not exist, then all of creation would not exist. I cannot fully conceive of a world where all of creation, including humans, exist, but God does not. God is necessary for anything else to exist. If God did not exist, nothing else would.

Anyways, I hope that I was able to add some clarity to the conversation. What are your thoughts?

 

[py3ak]

Is it ever proper to say that unregenerate God haters enjoy any aspects of God? Would there be anything for them to enjoy if there were no God of glory and blessings in the very first place? They enjoy God, but hate him. Such are the desires of a hypocrite in need of a new heart that they may come all the way to Christ. Many will not call upon his name while he is near. They confess his glory in their enjoyment of a glass of water, but deny him the glory due his name and say, "Look what my hands have wrought for myself."

Evil presupposes good; the perversion of what has been created to evil ends presupposed its creation as good by a good creator whose goodness is communicated thereby. Obviously without God there is nothing to enjoy; without God there is nothing at all, including no one to enjoy anything anyway.

Unregenerate men may have a sort of delight in and love for the philosophical notion of God, and enjoy contemplation in that way (think of Mr. Propter in After Many a Summer Dies the Swan). I think it is similar to the sort of imaginatively sympathetic love people can have for Christ, taken as a character in a story - as one might love Robin Hood or Alfred the Great (James Durham sets this out pretty clearly in his sermons on Isaiah 53). Of course neither philosophical delight nor historical enthusiasm are the same as a spiritual and personal relationship of trust and love. In those partial senses one could speak of enjoyment or delight that was not solely of a blessing.

 

[sevenzedek]

I do believe there is a partial sense in which it can be said that unbelievers do enjoy God, even though they lack a vital relationship with him. The way I see this does not in any way preclude the need for a new heart that would then enable one to enjoy God as God. I believe unbelievers not only distort the truth of God; but misappropriate the very truth and declarative glory of God (which is why they cannot know it with their carnal minds). I wish I could do better to explain myself and maybe convince others. However, there is too much confusion in talking this way about unbelievers enjoying God's blessings and nobody seems to be benefited by such distinctions as I have made. It is for this reason that I think I should stop pushing against the tide of godly men who have spoke to this issue in this thread. I do understand that unbelievers do not desire and enjoy God. Thanks to everyone for thinking hard about this issue with me. It is the glory a man to search out matter.