The Woman on Seven Hills

[Scott]

Rev. 17:9 reads: "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits."

I am reading LeRoy Froom's The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers and he has a picture of a Roman coin with a woman sitting on seven hills. An inscription underneath reads "Roma." Anyway, the pagans themselves personified Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. I thought this was interesting.

 

[Bladestunner316]

So does this mean there is no Rapture

 

[Bladestunner316]

Is this something amill's hold to in their interpretation of eschatology?

My best friend who is from last chat leaning towards amil as opposed to the 'rapture' stuff. Which I dont hold to anymore. But I dont know where I stand yet.

Blade

 

[pastorway]

Like some comedian said years ago, if a woman can sit on seven hills, that is one BIG sitter!

 

[Bladestunner316]

:bigsmile:

 

[Anton Bruckner]

woman on 7 hills=harlot=mystery babylon=1st century jerusalem.

7 hills=rome. rome persecuted the first church at the instigation of unbelieving first century Jews.

[Edited on 11-28-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Bladestunner316]

Jerusalem is on seven hills?

 

[Scott]

Not sure how Jerusalem could be the woman sitting on seven hills. In any event, the external sources seem to indicate that the woman in seven hills is Rome. Seems to be a figure of that period of time.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

The 7 hills is Rome. But the woman sits on the 7 hills, she is not the 7 hills. Likewise when the beast destroys the woman, the beast is not the woman. There is a relationship being indicated being the person sitting and the thing being sat upon, likewise the thing being destroyed and that thing that destroys.

It was the Jews that used the Romans to persecute the first Christians even to the crucifixion of Jesus. Remember the imagery, "The woman that rides the 7 beasts, the kings of the earth did fornicate with etc........."

Rome is clearly denoted as 7 hills as well as a Beast as made evident from the Book of Daniel. Rome is never depicted as a woman, only Jerusalem, and Israel are depicted as Harlots of which this woman is obviously.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by Slippery
The 7 hills is Rome. But the woman sits on the 7 hills, she is not the 7 hills. Likewise when the beast destroys the woman, the beast is not the woman. There is a relationship being indicated being the person sitting and the thing being sat upon, likewise the thing being destroyed and that thing that destroys.

It was the Jews that used the Romans to persecute the first Christians even to the crucifixion of Jesus. Remember the imagery, "The woman that rides the 7 beasts, the kings of the earth did fornicate with etc........."

Rome is clearly denoted as 7 hills as well as a Beast as made evident from the Book of Daniel. Rome is never depicted as a woman, only Jerusalem, and Israel are depicted as Harlots of which this woman is obviously.

Keon, I think Scott's point is that the Romans used that whole symbol of a woman on 7 hills to symbolize Rome. It was their symbol. The Christians in the first century would have recognized this in a heart beat. If you wish to argue that John is using the symbol and pouring into it another meaning than the Romans traditionally used, that is one thing. But the Romans did not identify the woman as Jerusalem but Rome. John would have to explain his reinterpretation of the already commonly used symbol to get the Christians to understand the woman to be Jerusalem.

 

[Scott]

Yes, Patrick is right - that is my point.

Incidentally, there is a Roman coin with Israel depicted as a woman. She is weeping or lamenting, sitting with her head bowed under a tree. The coin commemorates Rome's victory over Israel.

 

[Dan....]

Originally posted by Scott
Rev. 17:9 reads: "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits."

I am reading LeRoy Froom's The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers and he has a picture of a Roman coin with a woman sitting on seven hills. An inscription underneath reads "Roma." Anyway, the pagans themselves personified Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. I thought this was interesting.

Does the author cite the time period in which this coin was commonly used?

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by puritansailor


Keon, I think Scott's point is that the Romans used that whole symbol of a woman on 7 hills to symbolize Rome. It was their symbol. The Christians in the first century would have recognized this in a heart beat. If you wish to argue that John is using the symbol and pouring into it another meaning than the Romans traditionally used, that is one thing. But the Romans did not identify the woman as Jerusalem but Rome. John would have to explain his reinterpretation of the already commonly used symbol to get the Christians to understand the woman to be Jerusalem.

I would grant you that, but since John is writing from a Jewish background, why aren't the symbols where Israel is represented as a woman not taken into account? Why isn't the relationship that Israel had with the Romans in how they related to the early Christians not taken into account.

When I read revelation, I always see Rome as presented as a beast, and Jerusalem as a harlot, woman etc.
Rev 17
I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

[Edited on 11-29-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Scott]

Say an immigrant to America a letter to a fellow immigrant that refers to a red white and blue flag with stars and stripes. Even if the older country had stars on its flag (and both immigrants knew this), the collective symbol would lead one to understand he is talking about the American flag.

Besides, the Bible uses the image of a woman to apply to nations/states other than Israel. Examples include Samaria and Sodom. See, e.g., Ez. 16:46 ff.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I think the imagery of the harlot/ woman is specifically reserved for Jerusalem as induced from the preponderance of the evidences.


Would John have known this woman???

Is she the United Nations??? Rome??? Apostate Christianity??? How do the Scriptures describe her? And does her description fit that of any other in the Bible?

A Harlot

Rev 17:5
. . . and upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "œBABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Isaiah 1:21
See how the faithful city [Jerusalem] has become a harlot!

Jeremiah 3:6-10
"Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Because Israel´s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD.



Whose "Lovers" Will Strip Her and Ruin Her

Rev 17:16
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Ezekiel 16:37-39
therefore I am going to gather all your [Israel's] lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness. I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. Then I will hand you over to your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you naked and bare.



Dressed in Purple and Scarlet and Gold

Rev 17:4 & Rev 18:15
The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries...
'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Exodus 28:1-43
They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests. Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen. "Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen"”the work of a skilled craftsman.

Jeremiah 4:30-31
What are you doing, O devastated one? Why dress yourself in scarlet and put on jewels of gold?
Why shade your eyes with paint? You adorn yourself in vain. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life. I hear a cry as of a woman in labor, a groan as of one bearing her first child - the cry of the Daughter of Zion...



A Great City Who Says She is No Widow

Rev 17:18 & Rev 18:7-8
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." In her heart she boasts, "˜I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.´ Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.



Drunk With the Blood of the Saints

Rev 17:6 & Rev 18:20&24
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus... In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."
Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.´"

Matthew 23:35
And so upon you [Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth,

Luke 11:50-51
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

1 Thes 2:14-15
". . . the Jews. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."



Desolations

Rev 18:23
"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived".

Matt 23:38
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Matthew 21:43
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Matthew 21:19
"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Conclusion

We must use the Bible to interpret the Bible biblically. . . not the political landscape of our world to try to expose Mystery Babylon. We are not to use the "signs of the times", the newspaper, or our favorite prophecy teachers to interpret Bible prophecy.

Jerusalem is only one according to Jesus that is responsible for all of the deaths of all the prophets and all of the apostles and all of the saints. Jesus said God's vengeance would come against that people, in that generation. They would be judged for spilling all the righteous blood shed on earth. In fact, if all the blood of all the prophets was against them (and the office of prophet no longer exists) then the Babylonian Whore of Revelation 18 no longer exists. Why did this have to happen???

"In that He says, A new [covenant], he has made the first [the Old Covenant] old. . . and is ready to vanish away"
Heb 8:13

The Old Covenant System began to vanish away with the sacrifice of Christ and was completely destroyed when Jesus came (in judgment) to destroy the temple as he promised. Because of this, we are now in the Kingdom of God's dear Son . . . never to be shaken or removed (Hebrews 12:28; Col 1:13) ! !
http://souldevice.org/pret_babylon.html



[Edited on 11-29-2005 by Slippery]

 

[Scott]

John and everyone else in Rome would have recognized the woman on the seven hills as Rome, much like anyone in America (native or not) would recognize the flag as an American symbol.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

How many women are mentioned in Revelation?

I think two, the woman that gives birth to the man child, and the harlot.

Maybe the woman that sits on the 7 hills is different, but I will reread the above scriptures to see if that is possible.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

just read through Revelation 17 & 18, and the woman is the same.

The following clues gives us no doubt that this woman is Jerusalem.

1. She is burned.
8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Jerusalem was burned and destroyed.

2. She killed the prophets and the saints.

24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus told the Jews that upon them shall all the blood of the prophets from the righteous Abel to Barachaiah, shall be required of that generation.

3. The city is a Mystery.

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.I

If it was Rome, with the Book of Revelation written to hide the knowledge from Nero, it is obvious that the "Woman that sits on 7 Hills" wouldn't do much hiding since this was common knowledge to every plebeian in the Roman Empire. That means anyone could have picked up the Book of Revelation and as soon as they see Woman on 7 Hills, they could have carried that to Nero to start a tortorous inquisition of Christians.

4. This City killed Christ.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Only Jerusalem did that, and the term "Great City" is likewise used to describe the Harlot.

 

[Kaalvenist]

Enter Historicist, stage left...

1. It does not make sense to depict Jerusalem as a woman sitting on a beast with seven heads, interpreted as a city which sits upon seven hills. If the woman is a city, and the city sits upon seven hills (17:9), then the woman is Rome (Septicollis Roma). You are saying that, according to the image, Jerusalem sat on Rome; whereas the most natural interpretation would be, Rome sits on seven hills.

2. Jerusalem, the City of David, Zion, is recognized by all except Dispensationalists as a figure or type of the church. If Jerusalem is, later on in the Old Testament, depicted as a harlot, unfaithful woman, dressed in scarlet, etc., we should understand this in the New Testament to be descriptive, not of the city of Jerusalem, but of a false and heretical church -- Rome.

3. This would be in keeping with the description given of the Bride of Christ in this same book: it is not a faithful city, but the true church of Jesus Christ. Because of the contrast present between the two, the whore and the bride, it is not descriptive of a faithful city vs. a faithless city, but of the true church vs. the false church.

4. The Romish church has persecuted far more than Jerusalem ever did -- it is she who has been made "drunk with the blood of the saints." The text you refer to (18:24) does not say "all the blood of all the prophets," but "the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" -- which, if taken literally, would apply to neither Rome nor Jerusalem. But Papal Rome has, through the centuries, been guilty of the blood of those performing the prophetic (i.e., preaching) ministry.

5. The Great City is Rome. Although the Jews of Jerusalem sought to kill our Lord, it was only by the Roman power and authority that He was crucified.

6. Preterists have Greg Bahnsen -- not too bad. But Historicists have John Calvin. We win by default.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Keon, it sounds like you have some other presuppositions going on here. I've just noticed a couple, you seem to argue Revelation was written before 70AD, and that the similar judgments upon this woman and Jerusalem ensure they are identical. These may be true (though I don't agree with them). But you have yet to reconcile this with the historical data. The woman on 7 hills was a Roman symbol. Everyone knew it. John would have to take special pains to change the meaning of the symbol. I don't see where he does that in Revelation. Just because there is a woman, a harlot even, doesn't mean it must be Jerusalem or Israel. He is describing attributes. And why would John care to hide the symbolism from Nero (if it was written then)? The purpose of the book was to encourage persecuted Christians, not hide from Nero. Why would John care what Nero thinks? The symbolism is used to reveal truth, not hide it. John's concern is not Nero's or Dominitans or the Pope's identity (or their reaction to his letter) but rather the edification of Christians.

[Edited on 11-29-2005 by puritansailor]

 

[non dignus]

I see more of an emphasis on '7 mountains' or kingdoms, the whore being the visible church through the progression of empires. Like Rahab and the Samaritan women (Jn 4) who were redeemed from harlotry; also the visible church is transformed into the perfect bride. John is certainly alluding to Rome as she was the current empire.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Matthew Henry (written by William Tong) on Rev. 17.9:

Here we have the mystery of this vision explained. The apostle wonders at the sight of this woman: the angel undertakes to open this vision to him, it being the key of the former visions; and he tells the apostle what was meant by the beast on which the woman sat; but it is so explained as still to need further explanation. 1. This beast was, and is not, and yet is; that is, it was a seat of idolatry and persecution; and is not, that is, not in the ancient form, which was pagan; and yet it is, it is truly the seat of idolatry and tyranny, though of another sort and form. It ascends out of the bottomless pit (idolatry and cruelty are the issue and product of hell), and it shall return thither and go into perdition. 2. This beast has seven heads, which have a double signification. (1.) Seven mountains--the seven hills on which Rome stands; and (2.) Seven kings--seven sorts of government. Rome was governed by kings, consuls, tribunes, decemviri, dictators, emperors who were pagan, and emperors who were Christian. Five of these were extinct when this prophecy was written; one was then in being, that is, the pagan emperor; and the other, that is, the Christian emperor, was yet to come, v. 10. This beast, the papacy, makes an eighth governor, and sets up idolatry again. 3. This beast had ten horns; which are said to be ten kings which have as yet received no kingdoms; as yet, that is, as some, shall not rise up till the Roman empire be broken in pieces; or, as others, shall not rise up till near the end of antichrist's reign, and so shall reign but as it were one hour with her, but shall for that time be very unanimous and very zealous in that interest, and entirely devoted to it, divesting themselves of their prerogatives and revenues (things so dear to princes), out of an unaccountable fondness for the papacy.

Matthew Poole (written by another):

Rev 17:9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom; that is, here is that which requireth a mind endued with spiritual wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth; the seven heads which he saw the beast with, signified seven mountains or hills upon which Rome is situated; they were named before: see the notes on Rev 17:3. They tell us now Rome is situated in Campo Martio. Resp. Whatever it now is, certain it is, that in St. John's time it was situated upon them, and they are now within the compass of Rome.

Matthew Poole (written by another who cites his Synopsis) on Rev. 17.3:

Rev 17:3. So he carried me away in the spirit; that is, being in an ecstasy; see Rev 4:2; whether in the body or out of the body he could not tell, as Paul expresseth it, 2 Cor 12:2. Into the wilderness; a place not, or not much, inhabited, either as fittest for contemplation, or to signify that this great whore, which had driven the spouse of Christ into the wilderness, should shortly herself come into her state, according to the fate of old Babylon, Jer 1:13. And I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast; the great whore, mentioned Rev 17:1, upheld by the Roman emperors. Full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns; the same which is mentioned Rev 13:1: see the notes there. Here a great question ariseth, who this woman is, or, (which is the same, as appeareth by Rev 17:5,) what city is meant by Babylon, mentioned Rev 17:5; a question (as Mr. Pool noteth) of high concernment; for whoever this woman is, or whatsoever this Babylon signifieth, the people of God are upon pain of damnation admonished to avoid any communion with her, and to come out of her, Rev 14:9-10. Mr. Pool hath diligently collected into his Latin Synopsis all opinions about it, and showed what is to be said for or against them; I will give my reader the sum of what he saith.

1. Some would have it to be the whole world of wicked men. Against this it is said: (1.) That John speaks here of a certain great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth, Rev 17:18: this cannot be meant of the wicked world. (2.) The world of wicked men are those inhabitants of the earth, whom this woman made drunk with the wine of her fornication: now she that made them drunk, and those that were made drunk, cannot be the same. (3.) This woman sitteth on seven mountains, Rev 17:9, and so do not all the wicked of the world. (4.) We are commanded to come out of this Babylon, but we are not obliged to go out of the world.

2. Others would have this woman, or this Babylon, to be the old Chaldean Babylon. But, (1.) Where then is the mystery, mentioned Rev 17:5? (2.) The Babylon here mentioned, is by all agreed to be the seat of antichrist; so was that never.

3. The generality agree it to be Rome. Amongst the ancients, Tertullian, Jerome, Ambrose, ~cumenius, Augustine, Eusebius: of later writers, Beda, Aquinas, Salmeron, Pererius, Bellarmine, Lapide, Ribera, (all papists,) besides a multitude of protestant writers. (1.) That city is also like old Babylon for power and greatness, for oppression and tyranny of and over God's Israel; besides, the city here mentioned is described by two characters, agreeing to none but Rome, Rev 17:9, dwelling upon seven hills. (2.) Reigning over the kings of the earth: for the first Rome is the only city in the world founded upon seven hills, and famed for it by its old poets, Ovid, Virgil, Horace, Propertius, etc. It is attested to be so founded by Plutarch, Pliny, Dionysius, Halicarnass�us. The names of these hills are known: Palatinus, Quirinalis, Aventinus, Celius, Veminalis, Esquilinus, Capitolinus. Both papist and protestant writers agree that here by Babylon Rome is meant; but they are divided, whether it be to be understood of Rome in its old pagan state, or in its present state, or in a state yet to come.

4. Some would have it to be Rome in its pagan state; of this mind are Grotius, and Dr. Hammond, and some others. But against this many things are said: (1.) It is manifest that God here describes Rome not as under its sixth head, viz. the pagan emperors, but as it was under its last head, the eighth king, Rev 17:11, as it should ascend out of the bottomless pit, Rev 17:8. (2.) What John saw herein mentioned as a secret about the blood of the saints, which he wondered at; now the pagan emperors' spilling the blood of saints was a thing long since done. (3.) The desolation of the Babylon here mentioned was to be final, never to be repaired, as appears by Rev 18:21-23; but pagan Rome was never made so desolate. (4.) If Rome pagan be here meant, then, after its fall, Rome Christian was the habitation of devils, Rev 18:2. (5.) Rome pagan fell upon our saints with downright blows, not with allurements, making them drunk with the wine of her fornication, as Rev 17:2.

5. The papists, who grant that by Babylon Rome is meant, would have it to be Rome toward the end of the world, when, they say, Rome shall apostatize from the pope to paganism again; but for this opinion there is no foundation in Scripture, nor the judgment of the ancients, and some of the papists themselves reject it as improbable and detestable.

6. The generality and best of protestant writers understand by Babylon, and by this woman, Rome, as it is at this day under the conduct of the pope, for which they give these reasons. (1.) Because it cannot be understood of Rome in either of the other notions, as hath been proved. (2.) Because antichrist is to sit in the temple of God, 2 Thess 2:4, as God, therefore not in any pagan city. The mystery of iniquity was working in the apostle's time, but, Rev 17:7, the Roman empire hindered the appearance of antichrist till the popes had wrung Rome out of their hands, and were the sole rulers there; then antichrist showed himself. (3.) Because there is nothing said of this great whore, or this Babylon, but admirably agreeth to Rome in its present state.

Jonathan Edwards:

Yea it is prophesied, that the seat of this pretended vicar of God, and head of the church, should be the city of Rome itself. It is said expressly, that the spiritual whore, or false church, should have her seat on seven mountains or hills; Rev 17:9, "The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:" and (Rev 17:18) "The woman which thou sawest, is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth;" which it is certain was at that time the city of Rome. This prophecy also has come to pass.

It is true, some regard is had in the prophecies to the city of Rome, the city built on seven hills: which being the fountain of all rule and authority in the Roman monarchy, and the capital city of the empire, from whence the whole empire was denominated, and the place where the head of the empire usually resided, was properly used by the angel, (Rev 17:9,18) to show what empire antichrist should rule over, and what city he should usually reside in. And this is all that can be meant by the words of the angel; and not that those streets and walls were such main and essential things in what the prophecy intended by the beast; that when antichrist's dominion ceases in that place, then the beast ceases. For, if so, then it will follow, that the beast had his head wounded to death a second time, and ceased to be, when the popes resided at Avignon in France, for the best part of a century; when not only the popes did not reside in Rome, nor any part of St. Peter's patrimony, nor any part of Italy; but some of them were neither Romans, nor Italians. Though the angel says of the great whore, Rev 17:18, "The woman which thou sawest, is the great city which reigns over the kings of the earth:" yet by the city, in this case, is not meant so much what was contained within those Roman walls, as the Roman empire; as is evident by Rev 11:8, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt." Here, by that great city, neither Mr. Lowman himself, nor I suppose any other protestant interpreter, understands the city of Rome, strictly speaking, but the Roman monarchy.

Thomas Manton:

Now this impediment showeth both the time and place of Antichrist; and time and place, next to the nature and state of things, are the best circumstances to discover him. (1.) The place: Antichrist's seat and throne was to be there, where the seat of the Roman empire was; and St. John telleth us it was situated on the city that had seven hills: Rev 17:9, "The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth;" and that is Rome, which is famously taken notice of to be seated on seven hills or mountains. Now Antichrist had not room as long as the seat was filled with the Roman emperor, for this seat could not be filled with two imperial powers at once, especially with such a tyrannical power as that of Antichrist is, exalting itself not only above kings and kingdoms, but {GK}, the august state of the emperors themselves; there was no exalting this chair, till there was a removal of the throne; while the Roman emperor possessed Rome, the seat was full, and till it was void it could not be the seat of Antichrist.

James Durham on Rev. 17.9:

By woman we [understand] Rome, it is called a city, Verse ult. and it must be such a city as may serve to discover these mountains from other mountains, they are such, saith he, as the chief city of the world sitteth on.

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[Kaalvenist]

Originally posted by non dignus
I see more of an emphasis on '7 mountains' or kingdoms, the whore being the visible church through the progression of empires. Like Rahab and the Samaritan women (Jn 4) who were redeemed from harlotry; also the visible church is transformed into the perfect bride. John is certainly alluding to Rome as she was the current empire.

Might be relying a little too heavily on that link Mark gave you. I don't see the whore as being redeemed at the end... unless having one's flesh eaten and being burned with fire is somehow figurative for redemption (Rev. 17:16).

 

[non dignus]

Originally posted by Kaalvenist

Originally posted by non dignus
I see more of an emphasis on '7 mountains' or kingdoms, the whore being the visible church through the progression of empires. Like Rahab and the Samaritan women (Jn 4) who were redeemed from harlotry; also the visible church is transformed into the perfect bride. John is certainly alluding to Rome as she was the current empire.

Might be relying a little too heavily on that link Mark gave you. I don't see the whore as being redeemed at the end... unless having one's flesh eaten and being burned with fire is somehow figurative for redemption (Rev. 17:16).

You remember! Thanks for response.
I thought of that too, however it is perfectly in line with the re-occuring theme of martyrdom. The theme of Revelation is "it looks like Satan is winning, but hold fast- do not walk by sight, but trust in His soon return" The whore was burned by the confederacy of kings, and not from heaven. History bears out that God's people will be persecuted. There is a pure unspotted remnant, however she is within the larger visible church which is 'drunk with the blood of the saints'. The body of Christ is one and not many.

That study at Knox Seminary was eye-opening.

 

[non dignus]

Keon,

Our theories are compatible since 'Jerusalem' constitutes the visible church. (I take it you hold to a firm continuity between OT saints and NT saints) So, the NT/OT juxtaposition from souldevice was very helpful in identifying the whore of Rev 17 as the entire visible people of the Abrahamic promise. I would add that since Israel and the Mosaic economy were typological, so also the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD would be a type of the final physical destruction of the visible body of Christ.

The visible church (whore) is destroyed.
The souls of faithful martyrs ascend.
The complete number of elect descend as the bride.

 

[Kaalvenist]

Originally posted by non dignus
You remember! Thanks for response.
I thought of that too, however it is perfectly in line with the re-occuring theme of martyrdom. The theme of Revelation is "it looks like Satan is winning, but hold fast- do not walk by sight, but trust in His soon return" The whore was burned by the confederacy of kings, and not from heaven. History bears out that God's people will be persecuted. There is a pure unspotted remnant, however she is within the larger visible church which is 'drunk with the blood of the saints'. The body of Christ is one and not many.

That study at Knox Seminary was eye-opening.

Rev. 18:4-8: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

1. God's people are commanded to separate themselves from the whore, not wait until the whore becomes the bride.

2. The whore persecuted God's people, showing that there is some distinction between the two, despite the fact that some of them are within the whore.

3. The whore will be justly punished by God. This is not a persecution by the nations which Christians receive (since it is the whore who is getting this, which according to your supposition is still the church prior to conversion; it would have to be the bride to be "persecution"). Verse 8 is entirely too clear on the matter.

4. The body of Christ IS one -- one pure, virgin bride, not a bride together with a whore. There is no indication from the Apocalypse itself that the whore becomes the bride; especially given the fact that the whore gets wiped out for persecuting the true church.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by puritansailor
Keon, it sounds like you have some other presuppositions going on here. I've just noticed a couple, you seem to argue Revelation was written before 70AD, and that the similar judgments upon this woman and Jerusalem ensure they are identical. These may be true (though I don't agree with them). But you have yet to reconcile this with the historical data. The woman on 7 hills was a Roman symbol.

I am a partial preterist, who believes that Revelation was written before 70.A.D. So I am guilty as charged.

As for the refutation of the woman on 7 hills, I also believe that Jerusalem likewise sits on 7 hills.

Secondly, if the Book of Revelation is to be veiled so only studious believers could understand it, why would John use imagery that was common and easily discern? I think it was intentional for John to use the woman on 7 hills to mean Jerusalem and not Rome, so as to intentionally mislead the passive and to secure the diligent.

First century believers were very astute in their knowledge of the Old Testament and would have been aware of the scriptures that likened Jerusalem and unbelieving Jews that persecute true beleivers and rebel against God as harlots. They would also have been aware that they were accused by Jews before the Roman government as perverting the religion and not giving honor to ceasar. All these examples shows that the Harlot/Woman uses the Beast (the roman empire) to satisfy her own ends. It was only after the rebellion that the Roman Empire turned on the Harlot which mirrors the way that Rome destroyed Jerusalem.

But I am of my position because I believe that most of Revelation with the exception of the Great White Throne judgment surrounds the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Here are some more evidence that I believe that bolsters my case.
http://www.linkjesus.com/rev1718.htm
Proof #4.

As the woman sits on seven mountains, Jerusalem is built on seven mountains:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

From http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/endtimes.html,
Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

A second source, http://www.angelfire.com/pr/truth/whore.html, lists the same: Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, Mount Moriah, Mount Bezetha, Mount Acra, Mount Gareb, and Mount Goath.

A third confirming source, http://Jesus-messiah.com/prophecy/rev-13.html, lists the same seven, and explains a bit more of why some authors list different mountains, and includes a map: "The seven hills identify Jerusalem not Rome: Jerusalem was a large city spreading outside the walls and covering the seven hills there during the time of Jesus and the Apostles: 1.) Mount Gared; 2.) Mount Goath; 3.) Mount Acra; 4.) Mount Bezetha; 5.) Mount Moriah; 6.) Mount Ophel; 7.) Mount Zion. For what ever reason, and by what ever hands and manipulation, Mt. Gared, Mt. Goath, Mt Acra, and Mt. Bezetha have been deleted from nearly all maps of Jerusalem."

http://www.unlimitedglory.org/txtrevcha4.htm "look at any old map showing the topography of Jerusalem immediately prior to 70 AD. In so doing I believe that you will find that the 7 hills of Moriah, Ophel, Zion, Bezetha, Golgotha,
Bareb and Offence are all or partially located within the confines of Jerusalem as it existed at that time."

I could not find Mt. Acra or Mt. Bezetha in scripture, but five others I could. Gareb & Goath in Jeremiah 31:39, Ophel in 2 Chronicles 33:14, Moriah in 2 Chronicles 3:1 and Zion yielded 153 occurances.

Jeremiah 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

2 Chron 33:14 Now after this he built a wall without the city of David, on the west side of Gihon, in the valley, even to the entering in at the fish gate, and compassed about Ophel, and raised it up a very great height, and put captains of war in all the fenced cities of Judah.

2 Chron 3:1 Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the Lord appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The two mountains not found in scripture, Mt. Acra and Mt. Bezetha, are both mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia under the listing for "Jerusalem": http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=242&letter=J

Here is a Psalm about the mountains around Jerusalem, "As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever." {Psalms 125:2)

The word in Rev 17:9 is clearly mountains, not hills.

3735 oros {or'-os}
probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or "rear", perhaps akin to 142, cf 3733); TDNT - 5:475,732; n n
AV - mountain 41, mount 21, hill 3; 65
1) a mountain

There is a word for hills in the Greek language, even used in the New Testament, a word that John was aware of, and could have used, if he meant to say hills.

Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

1015 bounos {boo-nos'}
probably of foreign origin;; n m
AV - hill 2; 2
1) a hill, eminence, mound

Therefore, the interpretation that the woman is Rome, a city on seven hills, is not fitting with scripture nearly as much as the interpretation that the woman is Jerusalem, a city on seven mountains.

I suppose it is possible that the seven mountains have another symbolic meaning; in addition to literal mountains or kings. That the seven mountains are the seven continents of the earth: North and South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, and Antartica, which would mean that the woman sits on and rules the entire earth. After all, the whore is also said to sit on many waters, which are the people, and multitude and nations of the earth.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 

[Scott]

To argue that Jerusalem was a city sitting on 7 hills/mountains is unusual. Any precedence for that in secondary literature (i.e. any sources call Jerusalem a city sitting on 7 mountains)?

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by Scott]

 

[non dignus]

Hi Sean,
I think you might be over-literalizing the passage. There seems to be two women but it is not necessarily the case. We tend to think logically when reading scripture, but Revelation defies logic. In the first chapter (vv16,17) Christ is holding in his right hand the seven stars, then He touches John with his right hand. Did he put down the stars in order to do so? No.

1. God's people are commanded to separate themselves from the whore, not wait until the whore becomes the bride.
Yes, I agree. We are to separate from false churches but it is not as though there are two literal churches, one good and one bad. To say we must come out of the Roman Catholic church into the Protestant church is too simplistic. Today we see the Protestant Church in ruins! "Come out of her" is the call to be semper reformanda -always reforming. I'm sure you agree. The remnant will always continue to separate and be separatist.

2. The whore persecuted God's people, showing that there is some distinction between the two, despite the fact that some of them are within the whore.
Yes, I agree there is a distinction. The visible church is all the people who name the name of Christ. Christians have persecuted the elect 'with the best of them' thoughout history. "There are many sheep without and many wolves within." I assume every congregation has unsaved people in it who refuse to abandon their own righteousness.

3. The whore will be justly punished by God. This is not a persecution by the nations which Christians receive (since it is the whore who is getting this, which according to your supposition is still the church prior to conversion; it would have to be the bride to be "persecution"). Verse 8 is entirely too clear on the matter.
Jehovah's witnesses are persecuted. Mormons are persecuted. They would be counted as part of the whore along with those of us who are hypocrites not trusting in the work of Christ alone. The heathen see all who name the name of Christ as Christians but the true body of Christ is within the visible church. By the way, I'm not saying the church is converted en masse. I'm saying the true believers are separated out at the general resurrection to ascend into heaven.
To verse 8: Judgment begins in the house of the Lord. He will try our doctrine by fire. (1Cor 3) How much MORE will God judge those who take His name in vain?

4. The body of Christ IS one -- one pure, virgin bride, not a bride together with a whore. There is no indication from the Apocalypse itself that the whore becomes the bride; especially given the fact that the whore gets wiped out for persecuting the true church.
I agree but the error lies in being overly logical in seeing two women. The pure virgin is composed of the remnant subset inside the larger visible church. There is one body of Christ, one woman transformed. She is transformed by removing the dross of unbelievers on the last day. There were 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish virgins; but they were all virgins.
The whore would be the 10 virgins.
The bride would be the wise 5.

Did Christ have two right hands? Rev 1:16,17