The wounds of Christ in his glorified body

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by Pergamum, Jan 23, 2016.

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  1. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    The Post-Resurrection Christ summoned Thomas to test his wounds himself:

    Christ's glorified body had scars. I am reading all I can about this now.

    Aquinas' Summa addresses this here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4054.htm

    Spurgeon preaches on this topic here: http://www.romans45.org/spurgeon/sermons/0254.htm

    Bede gives 5 major reasons why Christ will retain his wounds in heaven:

    My question is: Why some wounds and not others? Did God retain only those wounds to be visible in the body of KJesus necessary to exalt his work on the Cross?

    For instance, Isa 52:14 also speaks of his visage being scarred. Yet, these scars do not appear to be seen in his glorified state:


    Also, Jesus was circumcised. That also is a wound. Is He now still so in heaven, since this is proof that He obeyed all of the law?


    Do any of the Puritans or Church Fathers discuss why some wounds but not others would be visible? And would this also be true of the martyrs as well?


    http://taylormarshall.com/2013/04/5-reasons-Christ-kept-his-scars-after.html
     
  2. C. M. Sheffield

    C. M. Sheffield Puritan Board Junior

    Very interesting topic. It reminds me of one of my favorite hymns:

    Five bleeding wounds He bears; received on Calvary;
    They pour effectual prayers; they strongly plead for me:
    “Forgive him, O forgive,” they cry,
    “Nor let that ransomed sinner die!”

    This thought has often provided me with much comfort.
     
  3. PicardyThird

    PicardyThird Puritan Board Freshman

    That last line of the verse is interesting considering Charles Wesley's Arminian beliefs.

    I am also reminded of a verse of a Wesley hymn:

    The dear tokens of his passion
    Still his dazzling body bears,
    Cause of endless exultation
    To his ransomed worshippers.
    With what rapture
    Gaze we on those glorious scars!
     
  4. Cymro

    Cymro Puritan Board Junior

    To think of our Lord still retaining the wounds is to think of Him after the flesh. His atonement is now a fact of history and it is not necessary to think that He continues to show the Father what he has done by eternally demonstrating His wounds.His is a finished work and His intercession is solely the perpetuity of of that factual finished work. Does the all knowing Father need to be reminded of what His beloved Son has done? His blood speaks better things than the blood of Abel. It is the one sacrifice for sins for ever that stands through endless ages, not any visible scars. Some would point to the lamb slain in Revelation to prove the scars, but the very same verse speaks of Him having 7 horns. So to literalise what is symbolic is a distortion.Surely heaven is the place of perfection,there, there is no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,neither any more pain;for the former things are passed away. No more scars!
     
  5. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Jeff,

    So why did he then retain his wounds in His glorified body if they are unneeded and have no significance?

    And did those wounds disappear at some point between his appearance to his disciples and his ascension up into heaven?
     
  6. Cymro

    Cymro Puritan Board Junior

    Well my brother, I would make a distinction of three phases in our Lord's state. There was His mortal body; His resurrection body,and then His glorified body. His resurrection body proved to his disciples and witnesses that this same Jesus was raised from the dead. But He was not as yet glorified until He ascended to His Father, as He told Mary. Glorification completes; as with ourselves,our corruption will put on incorruption.
     
  7. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    I wonder if we get but a glimpse at Christ's glorified body at the Transfiguration. (Matthew 17:2, Mark 9:2-3)

    By getting a glimpse at Jesus' glorified body we can see our future selves as well. Remember Moses. (Exodus 34:29)

    Any ideas?
     
  8. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    I have never heard of multiple changes in Christ's body. Being illuminated or in a glorious light or even having one's hair shine seems different than the opening and the closing of a wound. What do the Puritans say? Spurgeon and many of the Church Father say that Christ keeps his wounds in heaven.
     
  9. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    The words of the angels as Jesus ascended up into heaven, in Acts 1: 10 and 11, were as follows:

    “And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

    By this phrase, “this same Jesus” the angels were telling the disciples that the Jesus who ascended would resemble in appearance the same Jesus who will come back. And Jesus ascended with the wounds of His crucifixion.
     
  10. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    How does this verse affect our thread?

    "They shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10).

    It seems they will mourn with sorrow. Does this speak of Christ returning and unbelievers seeing his wounds?
     
  11. Cymro

    Cymro Puritan Board Junior

    I think there is a continual fullfilment, in that at the cross when the soldier pierced the side of Christ we are told, "that the scripture might be fullfiled,they shall look on Him whom they pierced." The gentile soldiers on seeing Him said "surely this is the Son of God." Likewise when Peter preached at Pentecost he told them,"that God hath made that same Jesus,whom ye have crucified,both Lord and Christ.now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said,Men and brethren, what shall we do?" The soldiers looked on him and saw him as the Son of God, not His wounds. To look in scripture is to exercise faith. The audience to Peter's sermon were converted,and those three three thousand were not all at Calvary, but they realised their sin crucified the Lord of glory. They exercised faith in what
    they "heard." They looked by faith through the word at the pierced One. And when He comes, not only the Jewish descendants shall see Him whom they pierced, but all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Whether Jew or Gentile, converted or unconverted, they shall see Him. But it will still be a look of faith for the converted, not at the wounds but at the the great atoner of their sins. It is the truth of His atonement that saves not the wounds themselves. It was His blood that was spilt, but that speaks better things than the blood of Abel, there is no need to see it!
     
  12. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    I've always thought that Christ may well have healed wounds in glory, as He did in His resurrection body,the emblems of His passion.

    The idea of Him bearing "bleeding wounds" in glory seems to be another example of how hymn writers sometimes sacrifice biblical accuracy for poetic licence.

    That line could be taken to mean ongoing suffering for His people,
     
  13. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    But you believe he retains these same wounds he showed Thomas now in heaven?
     
  14. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Graduate

    See also City of God XXII:19. The marks of martydom may not be considered blemishes.

    I don't see any reason to believe that Christ's glorified body is different than his resurrected body. Philippians 3:21 points to our bodies being transformed to be like Christ's glorified body. I can't see the point if no one has seen his glorified body.
     
  15. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    It's not a question I would be particularly dogmatic about, but I do not see why not, and it appears appropriate.
     
  16. Cymro

    Cymro Puritan Board Junior

    Christ in the days of His flesh was restricted in His movements as you and I, ie,could only be in place at one time, and limited by the solidty of barriers. Whereas in His resurrection body, He twice passed through locked rooms; appeared in various places without seemingly walking the distances; in the house of the two Emmaus disciples "He vanished out of their sight," and furthermore ascended into heaven under His own propulsion!
    But He was still not glorified until He entered and was crowned with glory and honour at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Yes, that glory was the Divine recognition and installation to the throne; the conferred dignity; His reward for covenant obedience; Heavens approval and approbation, the dust of the earth enthroned on the throne of glory, ---- but as with us we shall have a glorified body to inhabit that different environment. The same body but glorified. So there is a glory given to His human nature. It maybe that the metamorphosis on the holy mount was a partial portent of that glory, when there was such an emanation of brilliant excellence from His person. As if the veil of shrouding was drawn back a little.
    Does the Father need to see the wounds to be continually reminded of His Son's obedience unto death? Rather His sacrifice and satisfaction stands in perpurtutity to the Father. The work is done, redemption accomplished, tetalestai! Does the Lord wear clothes in heaven, if so His wounds are covered? How are you and I saved if we have not seen the wounds, simply by the obedience of faith to the Gospel call, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved? Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe. When we reach the heavenly realm how would the sight of His wounds augment or improve what we already know and experience? Worthy the Lamb that was slain, the great fact of history.
     
  17. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    The wounds wouldn't be for the sake of the Father, but for believers. Also, the angels said that Christ would descend in the same manner of appearance as he ascended. This seems to mean that he'll look the same. Having glowing hair or being radiant seems a different category than a change to the integrity/shape of his body.
     
  18. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father."

    Christ is the firstborn from the dead. There were stages in His exaltation which entail there is not an exact correspondence between His pre-exalted resurrection state and believers' resurrection state. Believers will be resurrected and exalted at the same time because they "follow" the firstborn in His exalted state. (A sound reason against the premillennial theory of resurrected saints on earth.) Also, one of the reasons for showing the wounds is that by His stripes we are healed. Not only was it an evidence of identity for the disciples, but is an object of faith for all believers. Hence we have the picture of the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" sitting upon the throne. This is not a physical description but a redemptive historical fulfilment which directs the faith of the saints in their present now/not-yet conflict.

    The corruptible will put on incorruption. There is no reason to expect dead, scarred flesh and seared nerve endings in the glorified state. All will be alive, full of sensation, in every part of one's being.
     
  19. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Ligonier ministries supports this view that Christ will retain his wounds in heaven:

    http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/suffering-and-the-sovereignty-of-god/wounds-in-heaven/?

    Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon on Christ's wounds in heaven here:
    https://books.google.co.id/books?id=DctBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=wounds+of+Jesus+in+heaven&source=bl&ots=jq386_ne6m&sig=Fy_Mcrmbi3SFmb8pcM2zKczO_9M&hl=id&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwib9J6fktDKAhWlw4MKHa6YAXI4ChDoAQhWMAg#v=onepage&q=wounds%20of%20jesus%20in%20heaven&f=false


    http://www.romans45.org/spurgeon/sermons/0254.htm

    I see no evidence of a multi-stage glorification of Jesus' post-resurrection body. The angels tell us that Jesus will be the same when He descends and when he ascended, so that we should not expect a different-looking person to descend.

    Also, there is no evidence of further healing after his resurrection..as if Jesus needed more time to heal. As if a few days after his resurrection his wounds were still visible, but later those wounds had closed. It would appear that the same way He chose to appear before the disciples would be the way He would appear in glory.

    Although I do grant that radiance or light might accompany Him in heaven (though this does not change bodily integrity).



    John MacArthur seems to support my view:
    http://www.gty.org/blog/B130701/a-glorified-body-the-necessity-of-our-resurrection

    Thomas Aquinas also supports my view.

    It seems that Thomas Aquinas was reflecting the widespread view of the Church when he penned the Summa Theologica's section on this topic: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4054.htm#article4

     
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