This Dutch website shuts down on the Lord’s Day

[De Jager]

If we are to keep the Sabbath, our conversation should be God-centered. Therefore our 'socializing' should be of a spiritual nature. I am guilty of casual conversation on Sundays - i.e. how's work going, what did you do this week, etc. I think it is better to direct conversations towards the things of the LORD, and certainly more in line with keeping the Sabbath. I am thankful that I am forgiven for all the Sabbath-breaking I have done (and inevitably will do).

 

[Pergamum]

If we are to keep the Sabbath, our conversation should be God-centered. Therefore our 'socializing' should be of a spiritual nature. I am guilty of casual conversation on Sundays - i.e. how's work going, what did you do this week, etc. I think it is better to direct conversations towards the things of the LORD, and certainly more in line with keeping the Sabbath. I am thankful that I am forgiven for all the Sabbath-breaking I have done (and inevitably will do).

I find that an after-service lunch together - even with coffee and tea provided at the expense of the church - is a wonderful way to reflect upon the sermon. Sure, some questions about work and family are mentioned, but this, too, denotes care of one Christian to another.

 

[Tom Hart]

The church is not a place for socialising- even and especially on the Lord's Day.

The church, properly speaking, is not a place at all.

But the purpose of a church building is to hold the solemn worship of God, not social gatherings.

You appear to have a very high view of the church as a building. I do not see any example for such anywhere in the New Testament.

My church (like many others) does not own its own building. We rent the second floor of an ugly old building in a somewhat run-down neighbourhood. Downstairs there's a hair salon.

By church I mean the location where services are held. If services are held in people's homes that would certainly change the situation to a degree.

How would it change things? I don't find that you're being consistent, but perhaps you can explain further.

 

[Tom Hart]

If a church meets every week after the service for a set time of socialising where refreshments are already being served then that provides an opportunity for other things to be included. All it takes is someone to suggest it and unfortunately in many churches no-one would have arguments against it. I'm talking about broad churches here. I grew up in a Church of Scotland church. But even if it is unlikely in solidly reformed churches, many things which were unlikely in such churches were eventually adopted so we should be as careful as possible.

I see. For example, someone goes out to buy a cake? I can definitely see that happening in a church without a robust understanding of the Christian Sabbath. I've been guilty of it more times than I can count! In a Reformed church, however, such a thing should be viewed as scandal, and ought to be dealt with using appropriate discipline.

And again it's not the talking that's the problem (provided it's profitable), but where that happens and how.

I am not sure that policing conversations on the Lord's Day is the correct approach.

 

[De Jager]

I find that an after-service lunch together - even with coffee and tea provided at the expense of the church - is a wonderful way to reflect upon the sermon. Sure, some questions about work and family are mentioned, but this, too, denotes care of one Christian to another.

I agree.

 

[alexandermsmith]

I never said anything about "informal" socializing.

I find that an after-service lunch together - even with coffee and tea provided at the expense of the church - is a wonderful way to reflect upon the sermon. Sure, some questions about work and family are mentioned, but this, too, denotes care of one Christian to another.

I do not think anyone is advocating informal socializing, but formal and intentional fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ and helping each other keep the full day in thought, word, and deed.

I would consider tea and coffee after the service informal socialising and is not an orderly way for the congregation to have fellowship on the Sabbath. If it was a proper meal for the congregation (with tea and coffee) that would be better, I think, but still other than in cases where long distances are involved I think it's better for people to return home after the service. True fellowship is achieved over a meal and by time spent with people, not in 20mins over a cup of coffee while you're trying to keep control of your kids. I'm not saying this is the case with churches represented here but certainly in a lot of churches (rife in the Church of Scotland) is the attitude that these pit stops with people, or a 20min visit to someone by the minister once a year, is sufficient for true fellowship. I don't think it is but I think a lot of people feel they have "ticked the box" by providing these cursory social gatherings.

In Dr. Kennedy's response to Moody's crusades in Scotland one of the points he made was in regard to those who can be seen visibly praying in the pew before the start of the service. He made the point that if that person had a well ordered prayer life he would have already prayed for the minister and for a blessing on the worship at home and wouldn't need to do it a few minutes before the service started. I think there's application here. A congregation that is willing to put in the effort to get to know each other and to encourage fellowship amongst the people doesn't need to rely on a quick cup of coffee after the service.

 

[Grant]

In Dr. Kennedy's response to Moody's crusades in Scotland one of the points he made was in regard to those who can be seen visibly praying in the pew before the start of the service. He made the point that if that person had a well ordered prayer life he would have already prayed for the minister and for a blessing on the worship at home and wouldn't need to do it a few minutes before the service started.

That is a very scary claim. My family prays before we leave for church. However I also pray in the pew and silently read the Psalms from the back of Hymnal. I find it unwise to tell a person they have no “need” to pray at any given moment, no matter how frequent they prayed before.

PCA BCO 49-3

“Let the people upon entering the church take their seats in a decent and reverent manner, and engage in a silent prayer for a blessing upon themselves, the minister, and all present, as well as upon those who are unable to attend worship.”

I am thankful for you sharing what your church culture deals with, but I think @Afterthought hit the nail on the head regarding our outlooks.

I do agree with you that 20mins over coffee does not “check” the box of fellowship completed so none else is needed , but no one hear is saying that no other fellowship is needed, quite the opposite is being said.

I am glad we seem to agree on the principle even though the out-workings have a slightly different opinion on a good cup of Joe. I will digress now. I do appreciate you sharing your convictions.

 

[Pergamum]

I would consider tea and coffee after the service informal socialising and is not an orderly way for the congregation to have fellowship on the Sabbath. If it was a proper meal for the congregation (with tea and coffee) that would be better, I think, but still other than in cases where long distances are involved I think it's better for people to return home after the service. True fellowship is achieved over a meal and by time spent with people, not in 20mins over a cup of coffee while you're trying to keep control of your kids. I'm not saying this is the case with churches represented here but certainly in a lot of churches (rife in the Church of Scotland) is the attitude that these pit stops with people, or a 20min visit to someone by the minister once a year, is sufficient for true fellowship. I don't think it is but I think a lot of people feel they have "ticked the box" by providing these cursory social gatherings.

In Dr. Kennedy's response to Moody's crusades in Scotland one of the points he made was in regard to those who can be seen visibly praying in the pew before the start of the service. He made the point that if that person had a well ordered prayer life he would have already prayed for the minister and for a blessing on the worship at home and wouldn't need to do it a few minutes before the service started. I think there's application here. A congregation that is willing to put in the effort to get to know each other and to encourage fellowship amongst the people doesn't need to rely on a quick cup of coffee after the service.

You wrote:
"I would consider tea and coffee after the service informal socialising and is not an orderly way for the congregation to have fellowship on the Sabbath."

Do you have such rigid rules for everything else in your life?

 

[alexandermsmith]

That is a very scary claim. My family prays before we leave for church. However I also pray in the pew and silently read the Psalms from the back of Hymnal. I find it unwise to tell a person they have no “need” to pray at any given moment, no matter how frequent they prayed before.

This is Kennedy on this point:

"Even prayer-meetings are converted into factories of sensation. Brief prayers and brief addresses to the stroke of hammer, or the toll of bell, silent prayers, hymns, which often contain a considerable amount of nonsense, and occasionally of something worse, sung to the strains of an organ, and a chance to address or pray given to any one who chooses to rise and speak,- such are the arrangements of the new prayer-meeting. The silent prayer, what is it? It is secret prayer, and therefore ought to be prayer in secret. It must be secret, just because it is silent. And where is it engaged in? In the closet? No; it was Christ who directed it to be there. There are other leaders now, and they direct that it should be in open assembly. Christ would have men, when they pray secretly, to enter their closet and shut the door. Now it must be done so that those who who do it "may be seen of men." And this device, so directly opposed to the mind of Christ, is lauded as if nothing could be better. And it is becoming the habit now of worshippers as they enter the house of God. They assume, before the eyes of hundreds, the attitude of prayer, to do, in the public assembly, what Christ directed to be done in the closet. If they intended this as a public confession of their sin, in neglecting prayer in their closet, such confession would not be at all uncalled for, if duly made. They who forget to do it where Christ required it to be done, are the persons most likely to do it where it can only be a bit of will-worship and formality." (Evangelism: A Reformed Debate, James Begg Society, 1997, pb, p.34, italics in original)

 

[alexandermsmith]

You wrote:
"I would consider tea and coffee after the service informal socialising and is not an orderly way for the congregation to have fellowship on the Sabbath."

Do you have such rigid rules for everything else in your life?

We're talking about the Sabbath: the Lord's Day. The day set apart and to be sanctified. I make no apology for applying stricter rules to the Sabbath than to other areas of my life: the Bible does that.

But also I don't like coffee mornings or such like generally and I think a 20 minute "gathering" over coffee is a waste of time any day or any time of the week. If it takes longer to travel to a function than the function itself it's not worth it.

 

[Grant]

This is Kennedy on this point:

"Even prayer-meetings are converted into factories of sensation. Brief prayers and brief addresses to the stroke of hammer, or the toll of bell, silent prayers, hymns, which often contain a considerable amount of nonsense, and occasionally of something worse, sung to the strains of an organ, and a chance to address or pray given to any one who chooses to rise and speak,- such are the arrangements of the new prayer-meeting. The silent prayer, what is it? It is secret prayer, and therefore ought to be prayer in secret. It must be secret, just because it is silent. And where is it engaged in? In the closet? No; it was Christ who directed it to be there. There are other leaders now, and they direct that it should be in open assembly. Christ would have men, when they pray secretly, to enter their closet and shut the door. Now it must be done so that those who who do it "may be seen of men." And this device, so directly opposed to the mind of Christ, is lauded as if nothing could be better. And it is becoming the habit now of worshippers as they enter the house of God. They assume, before the eyes of hundreds, the attitude of prayer, to do, in the public assembly, what Christ directed to be done in the closet. If they intended this as a public confession of their sin, in neglecting prayer in their closet, such confession would not be at all uncalled for, if duly made. They who forget to do it where Christ required it to be done, are the persons most likely to do it where it can only be a bit of will-worship and formality." (Evangelism: A Reformed Debate, James Begg Society, 1997, pb, p.34, italics in original)

I disagree with his comments on prayer and this is another can of worms, but not surprising. How do you see someone praying if their eyes are open and lips not moving?

What are we supposed to do when we arrive at worship 10-15 minutes early (in your opinion we cant drink coffee or pray)?

 

[alexandermsmith]

I disagree with his comments on prayer and this is another can of worms, but not surprising. How do you see someone praying if their eyes are open and lips not moving?

What are we supposed to do when we arrive at worship 10-15 minutes early (in your opinion we cant drink coffee or pray)?

Well Kennedy seems to have in mind the show of praying as well. But I think he makes a good point. Do we have examples of Christ praying silently amongst people? Do we not read that He always retired in order to pray secretly?

 

[Grant]

Do we have examples of Christ praying silently amongst people? Do we not read that He always retired in order to pray secretly?

He spoke to God on the cross. I am not trying to take away from the great importance or magnitude of edification of “closet prayer”. However we are told to have a prayerful attitude at all times! If a man is plagued by a mental sin while waiting for worship to begin, should he not silently cry out to The HS for help?

Again, what do you advise a fellow Christian to do upon arriving 5/10/15 minutes early?

I cannot see why meditation and silently reading psalms is not ideal to engage in while silently waiting for service to start.

 

[Steve Curtis]

True fellowship is achieved over a meal

While it doubtless can be and is, to imply that it is only achieved over a meal is patently ridiculous. This is just one of the, quite frankly, odd positions for which you are contending.
And I, too, would be interested in what you propose folks do who arrive early? No coffee, no prayer, - and apparently no fellowship, either, unless there's a potluck in the vestibule...

 

[Jeri Tanner]

You guys may be talking past one another due to the very different history and circumstances between the churches of Scotland and the U.S. I’m guessing that in Andrew’s culture, habits of socializing he’s criticizing may signify something in Scotland church culture that they don’t in ours.

 

[alexandermsmith]

While it doubtless can be and is, to imply that it is only achieved over a meal is patently ridiculous. This is just one of the, quite frankly, odd positions for which you are contending.
And I, too, would be interested in what you propose folks do who arrive early? No coffee, no prayer, - and apparently no fellowship, either, unless there's a potluck in the vestibule...

Clearly I'm not saying that it is achieved over a meal and in no other fashion. I am talking relatively which you know full well which is why you quoted that phrase completely devoid of its context. But frankly the attitude being exhibited by many here is not one of trying to keep the Sabbath as holy as possible but quite the opposite. The worldliness which has infected the church has been on full display in this conversation.

This whole thread began by someone going out of their way to ridicule a shop which wished to keep the Sabbath, and then by one who went out of his way to ridicule and criticise my own denomination's bookshop for doing the same. Instead of commending and showing gratitude for people who are just trying to keep the Sabbath as God commanded, even if disagreeing in this one particular, we have had criticising and nitpicking and name calling. No wonder the Sabbath has been lost.

 

[Grant]

The worldliness which has infected the church has been on full display in this conversation.

Dear Brother,

I hope you have not seen that in my post. I am open to specific correction as that was and is not my intent.

You and I are in 100% agreement on book stores (even church ones) closing on the sabbath. Church book selling is neither merciful or necessary on the Lord’s Day.

 

[Steve Curtis]

I am talking relatively which you know full well which is why you quoted that phrase completely devoid of its context.

In context, you said:

True fellowship is achieved over a meal and by time spent with people, not in 20mins over a cup of coffee while you're trying to keep control of your kids.

And I disagree. I guess it depends on how you define "fellowship." When my wife and I are trying to corral our boys, and other parents are doing the same, we are actually able to find a great deal of "fellowship," in that we are able to share in one another's joy - and struggles - and perhaps offer encouraging words or helpful advice, from God's Word. That is very practical, and, I believe, it is indeed fellowship.

Instead of commending and showing gratitude for people who are just trying to keep the Sabbath as God commanded, even if disagreeing in this one particular, we have had criticising and nitpicking and name calling.

I do believe, brother, that you have engaged in at least as much, if not more, criticising and nitpicking as anyone else on this thread. And I have hope that you do not percieve anything I have written as name-calling. That is certainly not my intent.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Thread closed by request for moderator review.