Thought on Ezekiel 33:11

[earl40]

After looking into the 2 wills of God and what John Piper wrote, I am in discussion with some great brothers and sisters about God having a desire or will to save all. They point out that in Ezekiel that this is a general call to turn to the Lord. I asked them if this is so why does not God get His "greater" desire? As you can see it does say "rather". The point being, if this verse is indeed a general call then The Lord does not get a greater desire that He is expressing. To everybodies credit not one expressed God having levels of desire which would be the logical inference if this was a general call.



Ezekiel 33:11
11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[jwright82]

I always keep in mind that all revealation about God is analogical in nature. Meaning that He chooses to reveal information about Himself useing our language and concepts. So the how His inner being works or something like that is beyond our comprehension. Luther I believe talked about the hidden and revealed God. How this plays out with regards to His desires or greater desires is part of the hidden Lord not the revealed Lord.

 

[larryjf]

Strictly speaking the verse is speaking of pleasure rather than will...meaning God doesn't take a morbid delight in the wicked dying.

 

[earl40]

Strictly speaking the verse is speaking of pleasure rather than will...meaning God doesn't take a morbid delight in the wicked dying.

Yes I agree He said that He would take no pleasure in their death, but He would "rather" they turn and live than die. The rather is predicated on life vs. death if they turn. The point I was trying to make is that if one takes "God having 2 wills" towards the unelect (a tad amount of affection towards the unelect to salvation) then one has to believe the desire to save is greater than the decree to damnation which leads to some sort of universalism. Now I do understand many who believe in Pipers two wills line of thinking would deny universalism but if 33:11 is to be taken at what it says the presupposition of 2 wills would lead to this logical inference.

Now to the point of 33:11 being a general call. It just does not make sense if all are not saved knowing that God would "rather" they turn and live than die. The word "rather" does directly imply a His will or desire to turn and live.

 

[MW]

Hebrew has a number of ways of expressing a conditional sense. One of them is bare context. In this context we find a passage which is entirely concerned with people individually being accountable for their own response to the prophet's message. Each one has a duty to turn to God and will be treated accordingly. The oath which God declares carries this conditional sense -- God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked who turns to Him. This is confirmed by the converse statement, that His pleasure is in the wicked turning to Him and being given life. As the passage continues it reiterates the fact that God deals with each one according to their status, whether they are wicked or righteous. If a person has been wicked but turns to the way of righteousness he will be treated as righteous. If a person is righteous but turns to the way of wickedness he will be treated as wicked. Again, the emphasis is upon the condition of what people individually choose. Given this overall context it would be a misinterpretation to take the oath as implying an absolute displeasure in God at the death of the wicked. Various prophetic passages present God as "longing" to be just and to make His vengeance known. Other passages present him as being in "conflict" between following the claims of mercy and justice. A great deal of anthropopathism is employed in these kinds of statements. Context determines how these should be understood.

 

[larryjf]

This verse is also pertinent to the topic at hand...

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? (Eze 18:23)

Here we see that God takes pleasure in what the wicked "should" do...repent, turn to God, and live.

---------- Post added at 08:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------

Yes I agree He said that He would take no pleasure in their death, but He would "rather" they turn and live than die. The rather is predicated on life vs. death if they turn. The point I was trying to make is that if one takes "God having 2 wills" towards the unelect (a tad amount of affection towards the unelect to salvation) then one has to believe the desire to save is greater than the decree to damnation which leads to some sort of universalism. Now I do understand many who believe in Pipers two wills line of thinking would deny universalism but if 33:11 is to be taken at what it says the presupposition of 2 wills would lead to this logical inference.

Now to the point of 33:11 being a general call. It just does not make sense if all are not saved knowing that God would "rather" they turn and live than die. The word "rather" does directly imply a His will or desire to turn and live.

God does not only judge between two options - the sinners life and death - though these two options are the only ones that speak to the individual sinner as part of the call to repentance.
If you are looking at "rather" you must look further than how it relates to the individual sinner to have a more full picture of God's decree. God may rather see the wicked live than die, but even more than that God would rather see Himself glorified...and that can only happen by the reprobate going to Hell while the elect go to Heaven.

 

[earl40]

. Other passages present him as being in "conflict" between following the claims of mercy and justice. A great deal of anthropopathism is employed in these kinds of statements. Context determines how these should be understood.

What passages show "conflict" in God between His mercy and justice? I take it the using of " " means that it appears so but not really.

 

[earl40]

God does not only judge between two options - the sinners life and death - though these two options are the only ones that speak to the individual sinner as part of the call to repentance.
If you are looking at "rather" you must look further than how it relates to the individual sinner to have a more full picture of God's decree. God may rather see the wicked live than die, but even more than that God would rather see Himself glorified...and that can only happen by the reprobate going to Hell while the elect go to Heaven.

I think we are seeing the same thing in that in this verse the "rather" is only towards the elect. No doubt God "rather" see the unelect manifest His judgment by passing them over, if not everyone would turn and live.