Reformed Baptist
Puritan Board Sophomore
I think its a modesty issue that is determined by the culture.
Tight jeans
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Well, I agree that people should dress modestly for worship services, but...why a shirt and a tie? What does it have to do with modesty and dignity? I see people in shirts and ties every day in my office (I work for a big secular company), and I strongly object, unsuccessfully, though, against wearing shirts and ties by pastors and preachers - why should they look like sales managers or even like a governmental officials, including our yesterday's persecutors? (I myself wear a collar clergy shirt every Sunday, my pastor does it only when we have the Lord's Supper or the Easter service - I remind him every time to dress properly for the occasion, as a minister of the Gospel, not as an office manager). "Be not conformed to this world" (Ro.12:2).
Besides, it reminds me of "Jehova's witnesses" or Mormons - they too wear shirts and ties. And in our culture it's bad for witnessing: people think of us as just another "sect", not a traditional Christian denomination.
A few months ago we had our church and another one had a worship service with a Communion together. Off all the ministers I was the only one without a tie - and it was sad...
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okinawabones
Puritan Board Freshman
If we're in church, we're there to corporately worship the King, to be taught the Word, to disciple and be discipled, and to fellowship with and edify the body of Christ. I can't speak for women, but I'm thinking that tie or no tie, a modestly dressed man presents no stumbling block for most women. But as a man, I can say with absolute certainty that women who dress immodestly (clothes that are tight, loose, sheer, low-cut, etc.) make it difficult for my family to do these things. In various ways and for various reasons, we're being presented with images that steal our attention from the One who should be our primary focus:
-If I see it, I consider it to be a dangerous lure- and I get mad because (a) she wore it, (b) her husband or daddy let her wear it, and (c) I've now seen it. Not much worship going on here...
-If my wife sees it, she sees it as an assault on our marriage by people she calls "sister". Not exactly edifying...
-If my 16-year old son sees it, he's now being bombarded with sexual images in our sanctuary that he doesn't even get on our TV. Ditto...
-If my 12-year old daughter sees it, my efforts to set a standard of modesty in her are being thwarted by the very people in the church who should be reinforcing it through their own actions. Not what I call discipleship...
If I have problems with the way someone is dressed, I have a scriptural template for addressing the issue (Matt 18:15-17). If it's with a woman, I ask my wife to address it. If it's with a man, I address it. But it's always done in a loving manner, making sure to remember that I'm not perfect either- and that Christ paid the same price for both of us.
Does that mean that I'm to address it and then overlook it if they choose not to correct it? I don't think so- especially when they've been told that it's a stumbling block for some of us (Rom 8:9). Their unwillingness to change their method of covering their body becomes a blatant disrespect for my needs and those of my family. It makes their participation in the corporate worship all about them- and not about Christ and His church. At this point, we have to lovingly expect our church leadership to address the issue of immodesty just as a shepherd would address the issue of a circling lion. At the end of the day, the threat to the safety of the flock has to be removed. Melodramatic? Maybe, but the devil does roam like a lion looking to destroy us. You think he's not roaming around in our church buildings, trying to lure us away from the Light?
It's funny, but this is an issue that we're dealing with in our church right now. I'll let you know how it turns out.
-If I see it, I consider it to be a dangerous lure- and I get mad because (a) she wore it, (b) her husband or daddy let her wear it, and (c) I've now seen it. Not much worship going on here...
-If my wife sees it, she sees it as an assault on our marriage by people she calls "sister". Not exactly edifying...
-If my 16-year old son sees it, he's now being bombarded with sexual images in our sanctuary that he doesn't even get on our TV. Ditto...
-If my 12-year old daughter sees it, my efforts to set a standard of modesty in her are being thwarted by the very people in the church who should be reinforcing it through their own actions. Not what I call discipleship...
If I have problems with the way someone is dressed, I have a scriptural template for addressing the issue (Matt 18:15-17). If it's with a woman, I ask my wife to address it. If it's with a man, I address it. But it's always done in a loving manner, making sure to remember that I'm not perfect either- and that Christ paid the same price for both of us.
Does that mean that I'm to address it and then overlook it if they choose not to correct it? I don't think so- especially when they've been told that it's a stumbling block for some of us (Rom 8:9). Their unwillingness to change their method of covering their body becomes a blatant disrespect for my needs and those of my family. It makes their participation in the corporate worship all about them- and not about Christ and His church. At this point, we have to lovingly expect our church leadership to address the issue of immodesty just as a shepherd would address the issue of a circling lion. At the end of the day, the threat to the safety of the flock has to be removed. Melodramatic? Maybe, but the devil does roam like a lion looking to destroy us. You think he's not roaming around in our church buildings, trying to lure us away from the Light?
It's funny, but this is an issue that we're dealing with in our church right now. I'll let you know how it turns out.
I read an article a few years back by two American missionary women in a muslim nation. They said the men pinch and grope and fondle and grab at burkas in the marketplace all the time. They don't even know what is underneath-it might be luscious 16 year old babe or an 85 year old bag of bones. They lust anyway.
If burkas don't take care of the problem, probably nothing outward ever will. My daughter and I always dress modestly but there have been certain men at times where you can feel the uncleanness emanating from them. Dress makes no difference. Even a normal friendly smile can be misinterpreted. Creepy.
Frankly I think a lot of guys growing up in this culture have an understandable serious lust problem. But as a woman I get real tired of us being blamed for it. Too much like the Muslim mindset. Men need to take full responsibility for their lust. We know a guy who spent many years counseling at a ministry for ex gays and sex/p0rn addicts and people can and do get free. It takes a lot of work and humility and accountability, but guys can learn to live and work in a sexually provocative secular culture and rise above it.
Temptation will always be there, even with baggy burkas.
If burkas don't take care of the problem, probably nothing outward ever will. My daughter and I always dress modestly but there have been certain men at times where you can feel the uncleanness emanating from them. Dress makes no difference. Even a normal friendly smile can be misinterpreted. Creepy.
Frankly I think a lot of guys growing up in this culture have an understandable serious lust problem. But as a woman I get real tired of us being blamed for it. Too much like the Muslim mindset. Men need to take full responsibility for their lust. We know a guy who spent many years counseling at a ministry for ex gays and sex/p0rn addicts and people can and do get free. It takes a lot of work and humility and accountability, but guys can learn to live and work in a sexually provocative secular culture and rise above it.
Temptation will always be there, even with baggy burkas.
Abd_Yesua_alMasih
Puritan Board Junior
I personally don't see the attraction.I remember waiting in line one day in the market, and I thought I was at the back of the line (everything is chaos), but actually I was at the front. All the women in burkas were facing me but because they didn't even have gauze for their eyes I didn't know which way they were facing!
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
Did the puritans believe that one had to wear their "Sunday Bests" to church? I know how they dressed generally, and I would guess that they wanted to be as plain as possible on Sunday, especially. But maybe they did believe that they were to dress up, to be in the presence of the King???
Of course I know they would want to be modest. I'm asking, all things equal modesty-wise (jeans verses dockers, for instance), did they esteem one type of dress as more appropriate than another for church? Or did they wear their normal, day-to-day attire?
I do realize that I may need to facebook Virginia Huguenot for this one!
I do not think the argument here is "modest versus immodest," though based on what a lot of people are saying, this may need to be a discussion in many of our churches.
I think the argument here is dressed up versus casual: Are both equally appropriate for worship?
Of course I know they would want to be modest. I'm asking, all things equal modesty-wise (jeans verses dockers, for instance), did they esteem one type of dress as more appropriate than another for church? Or did they wear their normal, day-to-day attire?
I do realize that I may need to facebook Virginia Huguenot for this one!
I do not think the argument here is "modest versus immodest," though based on what a lot of people are saying, this may need to be a discussion in many of our churches.
I think the argument here is dressed up versus casual: Are both equally appropriate for worship?
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
I would not consider this determinative, but it seems from information like this Puritans' positive legacy for America
the Puritans enjoyed clothing as a gift from an abundant God, many colors and fashions but paying real attention to modesty as a biblical virtue. It seems they did enjoy different levels of attire, including formal wear for the Sabbath. It doesn't appear to be exactly the same wear for everyone, but it was governed by formality and modesty on the Lord's Day and on other suitable occasions.
It would be hard to equate what the Puritan's wore with an exact match of suit coat and tie or even a woman wearing a long single colored dress today.
And in the final analysis, while the Puritan' reflected many godly attributes, we ought not make an absolute rule of their manner of dress.
the Puritans enjoyed clothing as a gift from an abundant God, many colors and fashions but paying real attention to modesty as a biblical virtue. It seems they did enjoy different levels of attire, including formal wear for the Sabbath. It doesn't appear to be exactly the same wear for everyone, but it was governed by formality and modesty on the Lord's Day and on other suitable occasions.
It would be hard to equate what the Puritan's wore with an exact match of suit coat and tie or even a woman wearing a long single colored dress today.
And in the final analysis, while the Puritan' reflected many godly attributes, we ought not make an absolute rule of their manner of dress.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
My mind hurts after reading this thread. Clean, modest and culturally non-offensive. Beyond this we start to instituite manlaw.
I am right with you on this one, Anne (I checked your profile to see your name - welcome to the Puritan Board). It seems that people don't care anymore about dressing properly. I am sometimes the only one in the congregation with a tie (pastors included).
A few things that I think should be done:
1. A shirt and tie for the men (cheap to acquire), a jacket if you can afford it;
2. Men should never wear sandals;
3. Women should be careful about the length of their skirt/dress;
4. No cleavage;
5. Women should be careful about the tightness (or looseness) of their clothing as well as clothing that is "semi-see-through";
6. Children should be held to the same standard as adults (within reason for the youngest, of course)
This is not legalism; it is about respect and honor for the Lord's House and the importance of the meeting. I have noticed over the years that one litmus test is how the teenage girls of the congregation dress. That will tell you a lot about the importance the church places on modesty and respectful clothing (or, to be fair, the struggle the church has where people have not been brought up to show honor in their manner of dress).
Numbers 3-5 generally seem to be about modesty in dress, which is important (and applies equally to men as it does to women), but 1 and 2 are pretty arbitrary and dependent on the culture of the church. I have a hard time buying that there's something inherently more "respectful" or "honorable" about a tie and jacket, and binding someone's conscience to specific items of dress is wrong.
I have to agree with Ray's points on this one. I think that once modesty is established the rest is fairly personal. I don't generally wear a tie to church and those who do have never voiced any sort of disapproval. In the first century Church they were do doubt wearing something very different than what we wear today, therefor the suit and tie should not be held as some kind of sacred dress.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Lynnie, no one is blaming the woman. Both parties are responsible to an extent. When speaking of Muslim men in Muslim countries, you are speaking of the unregenerate. When speaking of in the church, hopefully the majority are regenerate or at least should know better. Either way, the woman should also do her part and not go flashing others areas of herself that should be kept for her husband/future husband/herself.
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