To Sabbatarians: What is the Pastoral response to those who can't keep the Sabbath?

[jwithnell]

To my knowledge, the only time I've been employed on the Lord's Day as a Christian is when I was dispatched as a wildland firefighter. Nor do I ask others to work unless I'm providentially traveling on Sunday, which we avoid. My views on the Sabbath are strong.

That said, our situation is more analogous to Rome than to the Puritan era (as much as I love 'em). At least in the New England colonies, sabbath work would have largely been an economic ploy to get ahead (I can build more widgets than my competitor), and would have been denounced both under church and civil authority. Your ability NOT to work would have been protected as well.

Right now, a great number can seek other jobs, move (I had to make a heart-breaking move over this issue), or make other provisions to not work the Lord's Day. But I don't know how long this will be the case -- it will likely be just one of a long-list of actions (in many workplaces, "homophobics" may not be hired) to disenfranchise Christians. We have the early church as an example for some of this, but there are lines we cannot cross.

 

[TheOldCourse]

A large movement of reformed folks actively persuading their church members not to seek any employment that requires work on the Sabbath means dissuading thousands from the helping professions. There must be qualifications.

We want more Christians in those professions, not less.

Do you see that here? I see the necessary qualifications for works of necessity being made. My wife and I both work in healthcare and in the past we've both worked legitimately on the Sabbath--though our positions now, thankfully, do not require it. What seems to be in consideration here is merely the "necessity" of making money rather than particular employments which are daily necessary to a functioning and just society.

 

[Pergamum]

Do you see that here? I see the necessary qualifications for works of necessity being made. My wife and I both work in healthcare and in the past we've both worked legitimately on the Sabbath--though our positions now, thankfully, do not require it. What seems to be in consideration here is merely the "necessity" of making money rather than particular employments which are daily necessary to a functioning and just society.

Yes, I have heard reformed pastors advising young people to avoid professions which require them to work on Sundays. There were no qualifications given.

 

[TheOldCourse]

Yes, I have heard reformed pastors advising young people to avoid professions which require them to work on Sundays. There were no qualifications given.

Ah ok, I thought you were speaking of within this thread. I have heard the same and I agree. While I recognize that employers in fields of necessity often put greater demands on laborers than is actually necessary and would be required in a Christian society, that doesn't mean we should leave medicine, law enforcement, emergency response, etc. to the pagans.

 

[Pergamum]

Ah ok, I thought you were speaking of within this thread. I have heard the same and I agree. While I recognize that employers in fields of necessity often put greater demands on laborers than is actually necessary and would be required in a Christian society, that doesn't mean we should leave medicine, law enforcement, emergency response, etc. to the pagans.

Exactly. You said it even better than I did.

 

[Parakaleo]

I'm going to repeat myself and simply say it's far better to die than to sin against God. Whether or not various kinds of work are sinful on the Sabbath is a secondary question that can be discussed objectively only after someone comes to see the truth of the statement above.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Myson:

I've looked over your OP several times and am still not clear as to your precise objective. But let me attempt to answer in a way that I pray will be helpful.

Christians who do work that is a work of necessity on the Lord's Day should do it as to the Lord (as we are to do on the other six days), for the good of those whom they serve and the glory of God. Such should, of course, work as little as they have to on the Lord's Day.

You say that you are a mental health worker, which is a work of necessity. Pastorally, you should know that such a work on the Lord's Day is an expression of both love to God and love to neighbor. When you are required to do it, you should do it with your whole being to the welfare of those you serve and the glory of your Savior.

And your desire to join the people of God in worship and to keep the Sabbath, even when you cannot because you must perform this work of necessity (as is true of someone providentially hindered from worship who wishes he could be there), marks you as faithful in this duty and God does not disregard such. The Lord will bless you as you honor Him on this day even when necessity demands that you absent yourself from the public divine worship of God's people.

Peace,
Alan

 

[bookslover]

We can't 'find another day' because the church has no authority to change the day and certainly no individual can simply choose another day and make it anything other than a physical day of rest off from work. It is not the day the Lord appointed to appear in worship with his people.

Even under the Law (Numbers 9.6-12), those individuals who had accidentally touched a dead body or who happened to be on a long journey and were, therefore, unable to celebrate the Passover at the stated time were graciously accommodated by God to celebrate the Passover at a different time. By analogy, surely it would be possible for those who absolutely and legitimately must work on the Lord's Day to still honor God by setting aside a different day of the week (or part of a day) in order to spend time worshipping the Lord.

Let's not be less flexible than our Lord in such matters.

 

[Myson]

Myson:

I've looked over your OP several times and am still not clear as to your precise objective. But let me attempt to answer in a way that I pray will be helpful.

Christians who do work that is a work of necessity on the Lord's Day should do it as to the Lord (as we are to do on the other six days), for the good of those whom they serve and the glory of God. Such should, of course, work as little as they have to on the Lord's Day.

You say that you are a mental health worker, which is a work of necessity. Pastorally, you should know that such a work on the Lord's Day is an expression of both love to God and love to neighbor. When you are required to do it, you should do it with your whole being to the welfare of those you serve and the glory of your Savior.

And your desire to join the people of God in worship and to keep the Sabbath, even when you cannot because you must perform this work of necessity (as is true of someone providentially hindered from worship who wishes he could be there), marks you as faithful in this duty and God does not disregard such. The Lord will bless you as you honor Him on this day even when necessity demands that you absent yourself from the public divine worship of God's people.

Peace,
Alan

Thank you for your very helpful and heartfelt response. I guess if I had to clarify my objective, it is partly out of desire to learn more about my own situation (I'm a full time student who also works around 60 hours a week. This position is something I enjoy, but requires me to work every other Lord's Day to be with Schizophrenic clients who are under court order due to a crime they've committed to be under supervision) while also looking into the more pastoral response to those who are less fortunate than myself and must work on the Sabbath. I don't come from a Sabbatarian tradition but am in one now so it got me thinking. Everything I've read about the Sabbath assumes that people already don't work and are doing things like mowing the lawn, watching football, and doing laundry and that, generally, society assumes Sunday is the day off. However, the West is much more secular than that, and I see no reason in my own context to assume that is the case. Most people I know aren't resting because this is the only job they can get and have to work a double on the weekends! So, I just wanted to know, apart from my own experience, what do the Scriptures have to say to those people?

My negative reaction to some more hard-line responses is partly out of defensiveness (which is probably wrong), but also out of a difficulty in seeing how easy it is for ministers who don't punch a time card to tell others that it is better that their family starve than to work a fulfilling job on the weekend, particularly when Christ told us that the Sabbath was given for man, not man for the Sabbath. It's easy to tell people that they can find other work when you've never had to work like they do. At any rate, I hope this offers some clarification and again, thanks for your response.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I attempted to parse out 'W of N' in my earlier post and how the W of N and A of M are abused in this age; TheOldCourse provided us with some viable occupations-to which I agree. However, my concern is that many times, one calls a work on the L's D a W of N when technically it isn't. For example, is it a work of necessity if you work at Walmart? It seems as if some believe that one can work in these instances as long as they see their working is necessary to provide shelter, food etc. for their families and they have no other option available, i.e. 'this work is a necessity to my family's well being!' I see this as a redefining of the term. As well, if it is an actual W of N if you do work within the confines of that which Chris provided, is it still a W of N if you work it perpetually, i.e, the job requires u work the Sabbath-your shift is Sunday through Friday.

in my opinion, even in the case of medical care, in the initial stages of a job search, it should be at the forefront of your mindset to inform the employer that you are a Sabbath keeper and you are willing to work on the Sabbath to assist the need, but that you should not be considered part of the infra-structure per se. Most employees do not do this in fear of being not considered for the job or a level of discrimination in the future. Employers do not like employees who have timetable scruples. It makes staffing more difficult.

Another abuse, in my opinion, is when we stretch the principle to the minutia; for example, you work for the phone company or electric company? Thats necessary! Are they within the scope of a W of N. Chris and I both have a common friend who came to worship like 6 times per year. He worked for an IT security company; he felt like it was a necessity protecting their customers financial information. I don't disregard that what he does is important, but does it fall under an occupation that is to be considered an W of N?

 

[TylerRay]

Perhaps this is not something you can discuss on an open forum, however I'll ask did the church leaders and members try to help him find suitable employment with the same salary without having the Sunday work day requirement? I've never heard of someone being disciplined for that and we've been in PCA, OPC and EPC.

I would say let's not get into it. If you want to discuss in generalities if discipline is appropriate, when, how, history in the church on this, start a new thread.

I'm going to defer to Chris on this. I'll only mention that every reasonable effort was made in the part of the elders, and that he made it clear that he had no intention to keep the Sabbath. He actually changed his theology, claiming that the Sabbath had been abrogated, and that he was under no obligation.

 

[Edward]

I would say let's not get into it. If you want to discuss in generalities if discipline is appropriate, when, how, history in the church on this, start a new thread.

Chris, I would direct you to the original question, "What is the pastoral response to...", Not "what should I do"

While most (not all) of the responses have tended to answering that second question, discipline would appear to fall well within the scope of what was actually originally asked.

 

[ZackF]

I'm going to defer to Chris on this. I'll only mention that every reasonable effort was made in the part of the elders, and that he made it clear that he had no intention to keep the Sabbath. He actually changed his theology, claiming that the Sabbath had been abrogated, and that he was under no obligation.

If he had changed his theology why did he stick around?

 

[TylerRay]

If he had changed his theology why did he stick around?

I'm not sure. He and the session still stay in contact. It's a truly sad situation. He was a dear member of our congregation when he was in attendance. Now he's like a stranger.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

This is not an accurate analogy. Maybe this is a ground to argue that for the occasional unforeseen circumstance that is no fault of our own that we could not plan to avoid beforehand (see the many expositions of "Remember" affixed to the commandment), the church should have week day services as many do. But these are not unforeseen circumstances under discussion, and we cannot change another day into the Lord's Day and observe it as though it were fulfilling the fourth commandment. The church cannot do this, so certainly one individual has no authority to do this. This gets into the question of whether the church has the authority to move the Lord's Day for any reason the church sees sufficient. The Sabbatarian answer (and this thread was directed to such) is absolutely not. That is the perspective from which I said what I said.

Even under the Law (Numbers 9.6-12), those individuals who had accidentally touched a dead body or who happened to be on a long journey and were, therefore, unable to celebrate the Passover at the stated time were graciously accommodated by God to celebrate the Passover at a different time. By analogy, surely it would be possible for those who absolutely and legitimately must work on the Lord's Day to still honor God by setting aside a different day of the week (or part of a day) in order to spend time worshipping the Lord.

Let's not be less flexible than our Lord in such matters.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

My main concern was not to get into a specific judicial case. But, in the interest of trying to contain an already long thread from a question that deserves its own treatment given the many things as I noted which it could bring up, a new thread for this is warranted whether Myson envisioned this being a part of the discussion or not.

Chris, I would direct you to the original question, "What is the pastoral response to...", Not "what should I do"

While most (not all) of the responses have tended to answering that second question, discipline would appear to fall well within the scope of what was actually originally asked.

 

[PaulCLawton]

What would you say to someone (such as myself), who is theologically persuaded that it is necessary to keep the Sabbath, but literally live in an environment where Sundays are necessary to be worked on, in just about every field to be employed in? What happens when you absolutely have to work the Sabbath, or every other Sabbath, and simply cannot find a whole 24 hours on the Lord's Day (or even Saturday for that matter) to not work? How do you counsel people in those instances? Let's assume that you can't quit your job, and there are no deals that can be worked out with your employer.

Many responses have already been provided that surpass the following in both wisdom and persuasion, but this is a rare occasion that I might have something to add.

Taking the original question at face value, and imagining a member of our congregation coming to me as an elder asking the very same I would respond in the following way:

First, by challenging the premise, "and there are no deals that can be worked out with your employer." I do not mean to say that an employer would refuse to "make a deal" in order to give an employee Sundays off, on the contrary I know from experience this to be common. But brother, is God not able to "do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think"? Who can know what might transpire once a stand for principle has been made? I went through a similar experience a few years ago when after coming to a conviction about Sabbath keeping I went to my employer and requested a demotion, so by virtue of scheduling I thought I could avoid being scheduled on Sundays. In short I said I was willing to work until 11:59 on Saturday night and come in at 12:01 Monday morning, but I would not work on Sunday. Long story short, my superior accepted my proposal for a demotion (which would have made me less able to provide for my family) only for circumstances to conspire immediately following to make it unnecessary; I kept the position I had and have moved up from there in the years following. Things happened that I could not have predicted, is this not often the way providence unfolds?

Secondly, by turning to the much-loved Lord's Day 10 (Q&A 27-28) about the providence of God. Though it may sound simplistic, and often there are times where I have to remind myself of these same truths, I am convinced that much - if not all - anxiety about our circumstances are a result of a failure to understand (or perhaps imbibe) the doctrine of the providence of God. I will copy and paste them below, and may God guide you in your difficult circumstance.

27. Q.
What do you understand by the providence of God?
A.
God's providence is
his almighty and ever present power,
whereby, as with his hand, he still upholds
heaven and earth and all creatures,
and so governs them that
leaf and blade,
rain and drought,
fruitful and barren years,
food and drink,
health and sickness,
riches and poverty,
indeed, all things,
come to us not by chance
but by his fatherly hand.

28. Q.
What does it benefit us to know
that God has created all things
and still upholds them by his providence?
A.
We can be patient in adversity,
thankful in prosperity,
and with a view to the future
we can have a firm confidence
in our faithful God and Father
that no creature shall separate us
from his love;
for all creatures are so completely in his hand
that without his will
they cannot so much as move.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

The "necessity" in "work of necessity" lies in the objective occupation itself, not in my subjective need for income that prompts me to do what is not, outwardly and objectively, a work of necessity.

However, the question of what constitutes a work of necessity is, frankly, not the same in a society like ours (a highly industrial and technical one), as opposed to a primitive agricultural one, as one finds in the OT. This must be accounted for, and I do not mean that it is thereby impossible, but I do mean that it must be done in a thoughtful and charitable way.

I think, first of all, those occupied in vocations that require them to work on the Lord's Day and that are not obviously requiring necessary work, need carefully to look into and think about the question of necessity. Secondly, conferring with their local session or consistory would be quite appropriate, and the local governors should carefully and thoughtfully address the matter, consulting others and having recourse to higher (or broader, if you please) judicatories in helping them to advise their members with respect to such.

Even as it is not best for members to be the sole determiners in their own cases, if they are doubtful cases, it is not the remit of every other member to make the determination for their fellows as to what is and is not acceptable in this regard. Even ministers and elders acting singly here is not the ideal but acting in concert to help their member. Any given office-bearer may quickly conclude that something is not necessary work that a deliberative body of church governors may determine otherwise.

Ever since the gospel has gone to the nations, observing the Fourth Commandment has been a particular challenge that it wasn't in Israel in the same way. Let us recognize the challenge that observing the Fourth Commandment can be for many of our people, especially in a highly secularized culture, and act in a positive way to encourage them to desire to observe it and to do all that they can to observe it.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Inactiver user19912]

Thank you for your very helpful and heartfelt response. I guess if I had to clarify my objective, it is partly out of desire to learn more about my own situation (I'm a full time student who also works around 60 hours a week. This position is something I enjoy, but requires me to work every other Lord's Day to be with Schizophrenic clients who are under court order due to a crime they've committed to be under supervision) while also looking into the more pastoral response to those who are less fortunate than myself and must work on the Sabbath. I don't come from a Sabbatarian tradition but am in one now so it got me thinking. Everything I've read about the Sabbath assumes that people already don't work and are doing things like mowing the lawn, watching football, and doing laundry and that, generally, society assumes Sunday is the day off. However, the West is much more secular than that, and I see no reason in my own context to assume that is the case. Most people I know aren't resting because this is the only job they can get and have to work a double on the weekends! So, I just wanted to know, apart from my own experience, what do the Scriptures have to say to those people?

My negative reaction to some more hard-line responses is partly out of defensiveness (which is probably wrong), but also out of a difficulty in seeing how easy it is for ministers who don't punch a time card to tell others that it is better that their family starve than to work a fulfilling job on the weekend, particularly when Christ told us that the Sabbath was given for man, not man for the Sabbath. It's easy to tell people that they can find other work when you've never had to work like they do. At any rate, I hope this offers some clarification and again, thanks for your response.

I must confess that if I'd known of your full situation I'd have been more inclined to speak specifically to it. There may be some of my fellow confessional brothers and sisters who would disagree but I'd commend you for enjoying the labor of helping your clients, even on the Lord's days you might have to work. So I'd encourage you to be of good cheer, to a degree, that your labor is a work of necessity. I'd also insert that this is where a church could minister to you (and others) by having an evening service. You'd be able to worship with God's people that way.

However, I must take issue with your closing paragraphs and the assumptions contained therein. You admit your defensiveness, which is always a good thing, but allow me to speak to the end of the first sentence. Please don't assume that the ministers who have firm Sabbatarian convictions haven't: A) punched a time card, even while ministering to souls, or B) suffered through not laboring on the Lord's Day during difficult circumstances.

Many of us know the pain of our convictions from personal experience and not some sort of theological laboratory experiment. We do not minister in a vacuum; please don't assume that our views are formed in an ivory tower.

Blessings,
George

PS- MrsM. (TULIPsolas), the scenario you described is nearly identical to what wound up happening to me. I'm so sorry your husband had that inflicted on him. And I also think it's wise to remember that, just as many of our Sabbatarian views didn't happen overnight, one's situation cannot change that way. We'd probably all do well to pray that our practical application of our theological convictions would be lined up in helpful ways to our brothers and sisters.

 

[Parakaleo]

So what about Matthew 12:1-8?

The question of whether someone could really starve because they resolved not to work on the Lord's Day is one with some pretty fascinating considerations.

Is it realistic that a man who works tirelessly six days a week, at whatever his hand finds to do, could actually starve? There may be a famine situation going on where many people are starving to death, but in normal circumstances does it seam realistic that a man could literally starve to death if he was willing to work and do any kind of labor available to him (even tending a garden or hunting rabbits) to keep his body and soul together? I find that pretty doubtful.

Psalm 37:25 suggests that God will sustain the righteous man and his family, so they will not have to beg for bread. I have also heard an interesting proposition put forward in a sermon: that if the Lord causes a righteous person to starve to death, God has still not forsaken that person since he has taken him out of his misery through death.

What about Matthew 12:1-8? Wouldn't the lawfulness of pulling a distressed animal from a pit suggest it is lawful to do what is necessary to avoid starvation on the Sabbath? Well, yes. It is lawful to do what is necessary to prevent death on the Sabbath. I wouldn't let my children burn to death in a house fire on the Lord's Day if I had strength enough to carry them out of it. However, is starvation really like that? Could someone come to a point where they must eat on the Lord's Day or else face certain death, and their only recourse for obtaining food is to do some amount of labor for it on that day? Does anyone else see how far-fetched that is?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

It is certainly interesting that here with the fourth commandment, we seem to want to make all sorts of allowances for what is the grossest violation (refraining from our weekday laboring), as I think I've said more than once now; what are we going to do with the full breadth of it? understanding the commandment goes to our every thought that day? We cannot keep any of the commandments and break them daily because they are exceedingly broad in their application, but here we are not getting passed the minimum of the plan words of the commandment, which the Pharisees would have been content as fulfilling it.

 

[lynnie]

As has been mentioned, you might enjoy a Sunday night service if you are off from work by 6:00 or 7:00. I've known people who had to work during the day but were able to make an evening service. This doesn't address the main subject of your post, but it might be nice for you. I've known parents where one stayed home with sick kids in the morning and then went out in the evening. I don't know if you mind missing church as much as having to work, but if you do, you could look into local evening options.

Also, if you get a lunch break, it is nice to listen to a sermon. I had to miss three Sundays in a row due to weather, being sick, and being on narcotics for an abscessed tooth. I got earbuds out and listened to a sermon and audio bible and some worship songs. I won't pretend it is the same as going to church, but its a nice way to spend an hour on Sunday. There are also online classes from Reformed seminaries available and you would probably love listening to some of them. Like I said, this does not address your post about the job, but might make it nice for you.

 

[Parakaleo]

Please don't assume that the ministers who have firm Sabbatarian convictions haven't: A) punched a time card, even while ministering to souls, or B) suffered through not laboring on the Lord's Day during difficult circumstances.

Thanks for saying this, George. I think another important point is a minister's economic background is not pertinent to the way this question is answered. No minister has the authority to legislate or make concessions when it comes to God's law. The power of the church is declarative only. A minister who's answer to this question would be changed based on their life-experience is a minister to watch out for.

 

[lynnie]

I know this is a confessional board, but if you read Gaffin's book "Calvin and the Sabbath", you realize that there are godly, scholarly men who genuinely hold to the "realized in Christ Hebrews 4" position with a clear conscience. And while Gaffin ends up with the mods here (and the Confessions) he at least treats such people with respect as fellow Christians within the realm of orthodoxy.

It is possible that such persons do not belong at the PB if they are not confessional about the Sabbath. But in the same way that godly scholarly men end up as Arminians or Dispensationalists, I think the OP is treated too harshly here by some. Even a reference to church discipline- which implies treating a person as a heathen and unbeliever- is horrible. You would imply an entire group of people are not saved, not going to heaven? Lumping them in with those who worship false gods is over the line in my opinion. The "continental" position on the Sabbath may be thoughtfully picked apart the way Gaffin did to arrive at a certain conclusion (which even I thought had more to do with creation than the Mosaic law), but ending up a strict Sabbath holder does not make other people guilty to the degree implied here. It may mean the OP is not Confessional in his views, but it does not make him guilty of sin if his own conscience does not condemn him.

 

[TylerRay]

Even a reference to church discipline- which implies treating a person as a heathen and unbeliever- is horrible. You would imply an entire group of people are not saved, not going to heaven? Lumping them in with those who worship false gods is over the line in my opinion.

Lynnie,
He is not being treated as an unbeliever. He is being disciplined as a son. As far as I know, he has not been excommunicated. The purpose of the discipline is to bring him to repentance.

It may mean the OP is not Confessional in his views, but it does not make him guilty of sin if his own conscience does not condemn him.

WSC: "Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God." Our consciences don't determine what sin is. We are not our own standard, or a law unto ourselves. Instead, we are accountable to the law of God.

 

[bookslover]

This is not an accurate analogy. Maybe this is a ground to argue that for the occasional unforeseen circumstance that is no fault of our own that we could not plan to avoid beforehand (see the many expositions of "Remember" affixed to the commandment), the church should have week day services as many do. But these are not unforeseen circumstances under discussion, and we cannot change another day into the Lord's Day and observe it as though it were fulfilling the fourth commandment. The church cannot do this, so certainly one individual has no authority to do this. This gets into the question of whether the church has the authority to move the Lord's Day for any reason the church sees sufficient. The Sabbatarian answer (and this thread was directed to such) is absolutely not. That is the perspective from which I said what I said.

Fair enough, Chris.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Moderator Note:

Lynnie,

While godly men have believed this or that is not really relevant to the discussion at hand. Moreover, one's conscience is not what determines the guilt of sin. It is the revealed will of God in Scripture that defines sin, the want of conformity unto, or transgression of, any law of God, given as a rule to the reasonable creature (1 John 3:4; Gal. 3:10, 12) [WLC Q24].

We are often deceived by what our consciences may provoke within, for we are fallen creatures, our walks of faith differing in maturity and discipline. Unfortunately, we are sometimes wrong, but never in doubt.

Hence the need for ongoing instruction, exhortation, and care by those ordained servants entrusted with our spiritual growth, starving our doubts and feeding our faith by not neglecting daily Scripture study, rejoicing in hope, being patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer (Romans 12:12), fellowship with other believers, keeping good stewardship of the secular and spiritual gifts God has given us—including how and where our time is being spent—and with regular assembly with others to worship God, receive instruction, access the ordinary means of grace, and being subject to discipline.

To infer that "godly men" would be refused membership at our site is an infelicitous statement at best, a cavil inferring rigidity at worst. I will assume you really did not intend the latter. Your post, cast as you have so done, appeals to our often furtive emotions, wrongly implies some have consigned another to perdition, and begs for exceptional consideration concerning the Sabbath where none are due. The mere mention of church discipline should not immediately move one to assume warrant exists, for that very warrant comes from within the local church session.

If we are like minded believers at this site, and we should be, discipline is a very appropriate consideration on grave matters. No one here should be reticent to suggest that considerations of the consequences of one's actions is immune from church discipline (Jude 1:22-23).

So let's reset this discussion...

If we Christians do not keep the Sabbath day, then there is no need of the church. Observation of the Sabbath is as obligatory as thou shalt not kill. Moreso, given the priority of the first table over the second. God's moral reflection as delineated in the commandments is not subject to relaxation or change. We are commanded to remember the sabbath day and keep it holy. To remember the Sabbath before it comes—preparation—remember it when it comes—participation— remember it when past—meditation—on the Monday and successive days.

That is the starting point for any further discussion.

 

[lynnie]

Mr R-

I was under the assumption from years ago that participation here assumes agreement with basic Reformed theology and Confessional standards. As Pyack-Ruben once said long ago about something, the PB is not out to reinvent the wheel. There are godly studious Christians who sincerely believe in the Dispensational pre trib rapture, or that we can lose our salvation, or that God does miracles just like the NT today, or that the Sabbath was abrogated/fulfilled by the work of Jesus as described in Hebrews 4.

Maybe I should not have said they don't belong here, but I will say from experience that if they say anything against the standards here they will get an infraction. I've gotten at least a couple myself so I try to be careful (the continuationist position If I recall correctly...and I got a few nasty cracks when I posted Vern Poythress of all people about extraordinary providences). It is your board, your rules, and that's OK. But do godly people who hold to a continental position fit here? You tell me. I was under the impression they do not.

Tyler, I have always heard church discipline referred to as reserved for scandalous sins that lead to excommunication if not repented of. I appreciate you clarifying, but I would use words like correct or exhort if it is a matter of the church's doctrinal position, as opposed to clear unmistakable immorality or slander or crime and so forth.

I don't understand you guys throwing around the word discipline. I have been in two PCA churches myself in my life and I loved the pastors and the people. But I never saw so many exceptions to Confessional Sabbath keeping in my life among elders. There is less where I go now (Baptist Calvinist) than in the PCA. What, are you going to tell me the entire PCA needs to be put under discipline for all the presbyteries that don't agree with Confessional standards? I seriously- I am not exaggerating- did not know a single PCA elder who didn't take an exception on the Sabbath. I am no great Sabbath keeper here according to some of you (I have watched a DVD Sunday night and folded wash when it got to the point of the ox falling into a well with the wash baskets) but even I could not figure out why men even wanted to be PCA elders if they had these exceptions to the sabbath and claimed to be confessional.

Myson the OP is in the PCA. I think you could appeal to him to change his view, or go to the OPC or whatever, but I don't think anybody has the right to use the word discipline in this situation. Not for PCA people.

Anyway, going back to the subject itself, when I read Gaffin's book and he carefully lays out the continental view, and quotes all sorts of Reformed guys, it was pretty impressive and I could not for the life of me figure out how he could debate it. But then he carefully laid out why he thinks the Sabbath is still binding upon us and by the time he was done I thought he won the debate.

But having said that, discipline is for sin and error, it is not for views that are within the realm of orthodoxy. The Continental view is like Arminians who you might want to engage in extended debate with, but it isn't like Joyce Meyer lovers bringing word of faith teachings that are literally a different gospel. Continental views are not a different gospel or a sin, they are just one more thing that Machen's warrior children fight about. I think you have every right at PB to insist on holding to the Confessional Puritan view, but there is nobody who holds to the Continental view who thinks "thou shalt not kill" was abrogated. You can't equate the two in light of our Reformed church history. You can argue and debate and set the rules of the board here, but I think Myson has been too harshly treated by some.

Hey Myson.....the Gaffin book might help you think it all through without condemnation and rebuke. "Calvin and the Sabbath".

My son took a manager job at CVS with the presupposition that he went to church every Sunday. After a month people quit, sometimes he was the only guy to do pharmacy, and before long he worked almost every Sunday for a year, plus a lot of evenings. He had a wife and rent and school loans and bills to pay. We just kept telling him that the Lord could get him another job even in this rotten economy, and it took a year but now he has a Mon-Fri and they are happy to go to church on Sunday and midweek. I will pray the Lord works so you can go to church on Sunday. But don't forget that the other half of that command is to work six days, and it is a godly honorable thing to work hard as you are doing. Look up John Murray on how it is wrong to go to a five day work week instead of six and makes society go downhill if you really want to enjoy Reformed debate, ha. Probably most people here would flunk on that one. But never mind that subject, I don't want to get another infraction, if I am not already there......

 

[Pergamum]

The reason many people hate the Sabbath is because of the manner in which some people argue for the Sabbath. They do not make it sound like a delight but a prison and they add strict measures that are not found in Scriptures.

 

[Ed Walsh]

They do not make it sound like a delight but a prison and they add strict measures that are not found in Scriptures.

Who does that? I love "the Lord his Day," as they used to call it in New England.