tongues speaking during a worship service

Discussion in 'Pneumatology' started by rembrandt, Mar 31, 2004.

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  1. brymaes

    brymaes Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:db59312b9e][i:db59312b9e]Originally posted by dswatts[/i:db59312b9e]
    ...that is why I keep an extra hymnal in the pulpit...good for chunkin' (for those of you who aren't from Texas/the South...that means throw real hard!):D at disruptive parishioners! [/quote:db59312b9e]

    Ahh...I shall have to keep that in mind...

    [Edited on 4/1/2004 by SharperSword]
     
  2. mjbee

    mjbee Puritan Board Freshman

    Phillip, Pastorway, will you please stop doing that to Mormon missionaries? You said you do not ask them into your house. You said "They are looking for confused uncertain people to lead astray, they are not looking for a true discussion of the matter at hand." I beg to differ.
    James White's [i:2149347baf]Letters to a Mormon Elder[/i:2149347baf] has been a huge help to me. I guess I just have a heart for Mormons, and maybe you don't. I have yet to see a big red E (for ELECT) tattooed on anybody's forehead.
    I invite those young fools to my house for breakfast or lunch or dinner. They have my phone number. They are a long way from home, and, in typical cultic fashion, have limited contact with their families. They express shock and dismay that a "born-again" isn't throwing rocks at them. I listen and get to know them. We trade funny stories about our families. We get our Bibles out. I know their "theology," but they don't know mine. We go to John 6, Ephesians 1 & 2, and Romans 9. Mormon missionaries are masters of red herrings. I pretty much know what they're gonna say.
    Please, PLEASE don't keep these clueless young men out of your house! At least invite them to your kitchen for a cold glass of water. You may be the only chance they have of hearing the gospel of grace, and beating them over the head with your Bible at the door is not a good presentation.
    They aren't the Antichrist. If they are regenerated and believe the gospel of grace, they face a rough road. Believe me, I know. I was raised Catholic. Coming out of a cult is a....pain.
    In His love,
    Melissa
     
  3. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:72538b53ff]Would it offend a charismatic if someone were speaking an actual language?[/quote:72538b53ff]

    they are very touchy people.

    sundoulos, that sort of accuracy in a prophetic utterance is not unusual. it fact it is common place among practicing "prophets." I believe these people do have access into the supernatural. I was among them at one time and was trained under a thirdwave prophetess. These people are definetly possessed of a spirit. And it is strange to see the things that these spirits do to these people who profess to prophesy.

    There are demonic spirits that speak the truth of God. Take for example the women following Paul around on his missionary trip and simon the sorcerer. Anybody today claiming to have new revelation must be immediately shot down.

    Rembrandt
     
  4. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:ca1f85ef49][i:ca1f85ef49]Originally posted by mjbee[/i:ca1f85ef49]
    Phillip, Pastorway, will you please stop doing that to Mormon missionaries? You said you do not ask them into your house. You said "They are looking for confused uncertain people to lead astray, they are not looking for a true discussion of the matter at hand." I beg to differ.
    James White's [i:ca1f85ef49]Letters to a Mormon Elder[/i:ca1f85ef49] has been a huge help to me. I guess I just have a heart for Mormons, and maybe you don't. I have yet to see a big red E (for ELECT) tattooed on anybody's forehead.
    I invite those young fools to my house for breakfast or lunch or dinner. They have my phone number. They are a long way from home, and, in typical cultic fashion, have limited contact with their families. They express shock and dismay that a "born-again" isn't throwing rocks at them. I listen and get to know them. We trade funny stories about our families. We get our Bibles out. I know their "theology," but they don't know mine. We go to John 6, Ephesians 1 & 2, and Romans 9. Mormon missionaries are masters of red herrings. I pretty much know what they're gonna say.
    Please, PLEASE don't keep these clueless young men out of your house! At least invite them to your kitchen for a cold glass of water. You may be the only chance they have of hearing the gospel of grace, and beating them over the head with your Bible at the door is not a good presentation.
    They aren't the Antichrist. If they are regenerated and believe the gospel of grace, they face a rough road. Believe me, I know. I was raised Catholic. Coming out of a cult is a....pain.
    In His love,
    Melissa [/quote:ca1f85ef49]

    speaking the truth in love is definitely the most important tool to get these heretics to listen. But I must tell you that you are violating scripture by doing what you say you are doing. "Do not invite them into your house." "Have no fellowship among them." "Why be yoked with a non-believer?" Paul even instructs us not to eat with them!! Of course he is talking about fellowshiping over a meal, but it sounds like that is what you are doing. However I prize your patience with such savages.

    Rembrandt

    [Edited on 4-2-2004 by rembrandt]
     
  5. pastorway

    pastorway Puritan Board Senior

    For the record, I talk to them and ask questions about the gospel. I explain the Scriptural text to them. I do not beat them over the head. I am not rude. I am presenting to them a gospel of grace.

    But they are trained with their answers to our objections to their theology. So I use the Greek text as a starting point! Let's settle what the Bible says and then see if they can support sound theology from their belief system.

    I don't chase them off. They need to be saved. But at the same time, they are false teachers!! And to ask them in to my house would indeed violate the Word of God.

    2 John
    9Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. [u:5a5cd9f41d]10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds[/u:5a5cd9f41d].

    We are to lovingly present the truth. We are not required to offer a venue for a charitable debate as if what they believe is on equal terms with the Bible. We are not relatavists, nor are we pluralists. The gospel is right and they are wrong.

    Often, as soon as I answer a few of their objections from Scripture they beat a hasty retreat. They are indeed looking for people who are not sure of what they believe!!

    Unless and until they recant their error and seek salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone they are doomed. Jut as we all were when we were ourselves "children of wrath." (Eph 2:1-2). So please do not think I am mean and rude. I am not. But neither am I soft and wishy-washy. I present the truth and let them know I am concerned for their souls. And they rarely come back to my house, unless they are bringing an elder with them to dispute my claims!

    Phillip

    [Edited on 4-2-04 by pastorway]
     
  6. Bladestunner316

    Bladestunner316 Puritan Board Doctor

    I never thought about not inviting them in good verse I cant remember reading it before:)

    blade
     
  7. FrozenChosen

    FrozenChosen Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:ed372ed3fe][i:ed372ed3fe]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:ed372ed3fe]
    For the record, I talk to them and ask questions about the gospel. I explain the Scriptural text to them. I do not beat them over the head. I am not rude. I am presenting to them a gospel of grace. [/quote:ed372ed3fe]

    Pastorway,

    That's just the way to do it with just about anything! :grin:

    Tough as nails and tender at the same time!
     
  8. A_Wild_Boar

    A_Wild_Boar Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:97f672b97c][i:97f672b97c]Originally posted by sundoulos[/i:97f672b97c]

    On another occasion a man came up to me and said, "I have a word of prophecy for you." He did not know me, was a complete stranger to our community, and was visiting our church on his way through. I gave him leave to speak. He told me the thoughts of my heart and gave me an encouraging word from the Lord, quoting scripture. I never before or since have seen anything like this. Whether it was a word from God I could not state positively, yet what he said was true. No problem here.
    [/quote:97f672b97c]

    The guy could have been a cold reader. Most people who were read dont even know it. Then again it could be authentic but I dont think any is authentic unless it has "Thus sayeth the Lord" in it and it comes true.
     
  9. Wannabee

    Wannabee Obi Wan Kenobi

    [quote:8053519398]KC
    I don't know whether or not this is mean spirited or sinful. And, this may be slightly off topic, but I would be curious to see what would happen if one would go to a charismatic church and quote one of the OT texts in Hebrew, or read the NT in Greek. Do you think people would look at you funny?[/quote:8053519398]Actually, a fellow student was telling me just today about a group of guys from a TMS Charismatic Theology class that went to a charismatic service one time to check it out. Toward the end of the 'service' people started going forward and speaking tongues in microphones they had set up. After they spoke an interpreter would share the revelation :eek:. Well, one of the guys had memorized a Psalm (sorry, can't remember which one) in Hebrew and went forward to shared his 'revelation' with the crowd. You guessed it, an interpreter stood up and interpreted it. Hehe, the guy told him that he was way off and that he'd just spoken a Psalm in Hebrew. :bouncy: Well, that was the end of their visit. They actually had ushers (can you say "bouncers") escort him out post haste. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: I don't think I'd have the guts for something like that, but it is funny.
     
  10. mjbee

    mjbee Puritan Board Freshman

    I have unbelievers in my house every day. My grown daughters are unbelievers. My older sister is RC. My late mother was also a Catholic. My neighbors don't even pretend to be Christians, let alone Reformed. What, I'm supposed to not let anybody but a Reformed Christian into my house? RUBBISH!!!! Inviting somebody in hardly constitutes an unequal yoking! Didn't you ever read about the Samaritan? Can't you extend hospitality to someone without disqualifying him/her for religious beliefs? Didn't you ever read Hebrews 13:2? Or Proverbs 24:11-12? Ya'all need to go to Oz, and get a heart. Thank God the person who shared the gospel of grace with me didn't write me off because I grew up Catholic! If you only love those who love you (or who share your beliefs), what good is that?
    Paul was talking about excommunicating a church member. I hardly think that applies to our behavior toward unbelievers in general. Context context CONTEXT!!! Oy!
     
  11. mjbee

    mjbee Puritan Board Freshman

    And I realize that is totally off-topic and has nothing to do with speaking in tongues in church. And I don't know how we got to Mormons at the door.....:puzzled:
     
  12. rembrandt

    rembrandt Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:30ea3d6940][i:30ea3d6940]Originally posted by mjbee[/i:30ea3d6940]
    I have unbelievers in my house every day. My grown daughters are unbelievers. My older sister is RC. My late mother was also a Catholic. My neighbors don't even pretend to be Christians, let alone Reformed. What, I'm supposed to not let anybody but a Reformed Christian into my house? RUBBISH!!!! Inviting somebody in hardly constitutes an unequal yoking! Didn't you ever read about the Samaritan? Can't you extend hospitality to someone without disqualifying him/her for religious beliefs? Didn't you ever read Hebrews 13:2? Or Proverbs 24:11-12? Ya'all need to go to Oz, and get a heart. Thank God the person who shared the gospel of grace with me didn't write me off because I grew up Catholic! If you only love those who love you (or who share your beliefs), what good is that?
    Paul was talking about excommunicating a church member. I hardly think that applies to our behavior toward unbelievers in general. Context context CONTEXT!!! Oy! [/quote:30ea3d6940]

    There is nothing wrong with having a friendly relationship with an unbeliever, but not if they are false teachers and claim to have right standing with Christ and yet live as the scum of the world. The context is talking of those in the church. I assume that applies to the visible universal church. We are not to commune with heretics and hypocrites. The church SHOULD shun them until they recant/repent. And as Paul says, to be hospitable to these evildoers is to share in their wickedness!

    Most of my extended family is Catholic, but each individual member of Rome may not be apostate. And as for those outside who do not lay ANY claim to Christ, of course it is a different story.

    Rembrandt
     
  13. pastorway

    pastorway Puritan Board Senior

    I want to clarify something:

    Someone knocks on your door. They are not Christians, but are instead cult members. They are "evangelistic" cult members, missionaries for their faith preaching a false gospel (Gal 1:6-9). They are therefore false teachers seeking to lead people to hell!

    I am not saying not to love them. I am not saying not to share the gospel with them. And I am not saying that we cannot have friends and family members in our houses when they remain unsaved.

    Let's not overreact and miss the point. 2 John is clear that if someone comes teaching another gospel that we are not to greet them or let them in the house at all. This is not a brother in 2 John. It is an "antichrist"!! To ask a Mormon missionary or a JW evangelist into your home is a direct violation of 2 John 9-10.

    What else does Scripture tell us about dealing with false teachers in or out of the Church?

    [b:7521b1aabd]Galatians 1[/b:7521b1aabd]
    6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again,[u:7521b1aabd] if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.[/u:7521b1aabd]

    [b:7521b1aabd]2 John[/b:7521b1aabd]
    7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. [u:7521b1aabd]This is a deceiver and an antichrist[/u:7521b1aabd]. 8Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. [u:7521b1aabd]10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house[/u:7521b1aabd] nor greet him; 11for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

    [b:7521b1aabd]Matthew 23[/b:7521b1aabd]
    13"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, "Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' 17Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18And, "Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.' 19Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. 23"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, "If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

    [b:7521b1aabd]1 Timothy 6[/b:7521b1aabd]
    3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. [u:7521b1aabd]From such withdraw yourself[/u:7521b1aabd].

    [b:7521b1aabd]2 Timothy 2 and 3[/b:7521b1aabd]
    16But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17And their message will spread like cancer.

    23But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25[u:7521b1aabd]in humility correcting those who are in opposition[/u:7521b1aabd], if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

    3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. [u:7521b1aabd]And from such people turn away[/u:7521b1aabd]! 6For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

    [b:7521b1aabd]Titus 1[/b:7521b1aabd]
    10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, [u:7521b1aabd]11whose mouths must be stopped[/u:7521b1aabd], who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 13[u:7521b1aabd]Therefore rebuke them sharply[/u:7521b1aabd], that they may be sound in the faith, 14not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 16They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

    [b:7521b1aabd]Titus 3[/b:7521b1aabd]
    9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. [u:7521b1aabd]10Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition[/u:7521b1aabd], 11knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

    [b:7521b1aabd]2 Peter 2[/b:7521b1aabd]
    12 But these [false teachers], like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
    17These are wells without water, cloudscarried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[4] from those who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

    Seems pretty clear that false teachers will be accursed if they do not repent. We do not win them by allowing them to explain and teach their damning doctrine of demons. We do not reason with them one on one with the hopes that we will persuade them to change their mind. We contend for the faith earnestly. We oppose and rebuke them with truth, at the door and in the church.

    That does not mean that we treat every lost person this way, but then again, not every lost person is trying to evangelize us and convert us to another gospel, are they? Those that do should be stopped!

    Especially if as this thread suggests, someone disrupts a worship service to proclaim error and engage in unbiblical activity in the name of Christ. We as pastors especially must guard the church as a shepherd would his flock from a wolf or lion.

    Part of the Scriptural assignment to pastors is that they:

    [quote:7521b1aabd][b:7521b1aabd]Rebuke[/b:7521b1aabd] - 1 Tim.5:20; Titus 1:10-13
    a. Sinners in the presence of all
    b. By stopping the mouths of insubordinate, idle talkers
    c. Sharply those not sound in the faith

    [b:7521b1aabd]Speak[/b:7521b1aabd] - Titus 2:1, 11-14, 15
    a. Things proper for sound doctrine
    b. These things
    c. Exhortations, rebuking with all authority

    [b:7521b1aabd]Withdraw, avoid, flee, and turn away from[/b:7521b1aabd] - 1 Tim. 6:3-5, 11, 20; 2 Tim. 2:22-23; 3:5, 9
    a. False Teachers
    b. Greed and evil
    c. Profane and idle babblings, contradictions
    d. Youthful lusts
    e. Foolish and ignorant disputes
    f. Evil-doers (according to 2 Tim. 3:1-5)
    g. Foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, strivings about the Law (with false teachers)

    [b:7521b1aabd]Prove yourself a good worker[/b:7521b1aabd] - 1 Tim. 1:18; 6:12, 20; 2 Tim. 2:3, 15; 4:5
    a. Wage a good warfare
    b. Fight a good fight
    c. Guard what is committed to your trust
    d. Endure hardship and affliction
    e. Be diligent
    f. Rightly handle the Word of God

    http://users3.ev1.net/~maranathachurch/rdpastor.html [/quote:7521b1aabd]


    Phillip
     
  14. sundoulos

    sundoulos Puritan Board Freshman

    There is another view to the passage that says not to invite them into your home. I believe that this referred to false prophets who would visit a home in which believers were meeting for worship, instruction, and fellowship.

    I have no compulsion about inviting Mormon or JW emissaries into my home under the following conditions:

    I do not allow them to teach me.
    I control the conversation.
    They agree ahead of time to listen to me.

    Quite a number of years ago I had the privilige of entertaining a JW elder for several hours one Lord's Day afternoon. At the conclusion of his visit (with his wife) he remained unconvinced.

    Nine years later he was teaching as a former JW as a guest speaker in my cults class. In that session he revealed that my wife and I were the first Christians to treat him with respect, diginity, and to friendliness and as a result of that when the Lord finally began to work on him his heart was the more receptive.
     
  15. alwaysreforming

    alwaysreforming Puritan Board Sophomore

    I agree with MJBEE and Sundoulos that the way we interpret the above Scripture may not be the best way.

    It is my understanding that John is talking about the false teachers, the Gnostics, who were enemies of the Gospel and were KNOWINGLY promoting a false concept of Christ and salvation.
    To invite one of these into your house was to help them by providing them food, a place to sleep for the night(s), provisions for the rest of their journey, etc. and thus sharing in their work to some extent. You may not have been "preaching their Gospel" with them, but you were giving them the physical support to aid them in their work.

    When we invite a JW or Mormon into our house, we are not "aiding" them in preaching their "gospel" but simply taking the discussion inside where we can be more kind, and fruitful.

    I taught a class on "Witnessing to JW's" and this was one of the verses I mentioned and interpreted it in the above fashion. I hope I have not misinterpreted it, but after much research that is the conclusion I came to.

    Can you have a meaningful discussion at your front door? Sure. But I believe the best interpretation of the passage allows the conversation to move indoors as well.
     
  16. Wannabee

    Wannabee Obi Wan Kenobi

    I always ask them for as much literature as they will give me, then throw it away.:eek::bouncy:
     
  17. A_Wild_Boar

    A_Wild_Boar Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:d6729fe5b9][i:d6729fe5b9]Originally posted by alwaysreforming[/i:d6729fe5b9]
    I agree with MJBEE and Sundoulos that the way we interpret the above Scripture may not be the best way.

    It is my understanding that John is talking about the false teachers, the Gnostics, who were enemies of the Gospel and were KNOWINGLY promoting a false concept of Christ and salvation.
    [/quote:d6729fe5b9]

    Same with the JWs and Mormons. No difference. They know their Gospel is not the same as ours.
     
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