too many pastors, not enough pulpits
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SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Stuart - I'm not trying to blast you, but your post strikes a nerve to me because it is illustrative of an attitude I've encountered among some, mainly folks in small churches.
I really detest the insinuation that love of money or professional pride, or some other ulterior motive, keeps people from small (and usually poor) churches. A minister is not a money chasing hireling merely because he has real financial obligations that must be met. Families cost money to feed and clothe and keep sheltered. And what's more, few things set me off more quickly than when some church acts like the would-be minister's attitude towards the pay package that obviously won't enable ends to be met should be "the Lord will provide." Talk about pseudo-sanctified sounding recklessness!
One thing I tell people on a regular basis is this: Presbyteries may (and do) err. Inward sense of calling may be misconstrued. The bottom line is that no minister, no matter how gifted he may be or well received he may be by God's people, has God's unchanging and infallible Word declaring to him that he must be a pastor. But I do have God's infallible Word telling me - and every other man - that he has the responsibility to provide for his family.
A minister should not be trying to get rich. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing necessarily wrong with being well paid... but chasing money should be unheard of amongst Christ's undershepherds. At the same time, ministers should not be accused of chasing money just because they have financial obligations to be met.
That said, I for one am leaning more towards doing my 20 - not more, just enough to get my retirement - and then using that income to pay the majority of my family's living costs so that I can be freed to accept a position in a rural environment or maybe plant a church so that I can create my own problems rather than inherit someone else's.
Oh, and one more thing... it really irritates me when a church keeps their pastor on the verge of poverty and then they boast about how much they send off to the mission field. Take care of your own pastor, people!
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greenbaggins
Puritan Board Doctor
Ben, your rant reminded me of Ambrose Bierce's definition of the Bible: an excellent resource to apply to the situation of one's neighbor. Churches can often apply Scripture's warnings about "love of money" to their pastor, when they completely ignore passages such as "the laborer is worthy of his hire." Gotta be a balance in there somewhere.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
And, don't forget that some congregations have enough money to not only fully support four overseas missionary families, give $10,000 per year to a Bible translation ministry, give generously to local indigent support ministries, contract out the replacement of commercial flooring that rarely sees traffic every three years, replace perfectly functioning lighting in order to update it, pay some one $100.00 per week to mow about 2,000 SF, maintain almost 250,000 in a capital improvement account; BUT cannot afford to pay its pastors a living wage. Don't ask me how I know
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
I've seen both sides of this part of the issue. I've been in a Church where the Pastor was very well-paid to the point of being a debilitating strain on the congregation while stating that his calling was more as worship and music leader than counselor, so that the over-worked Ruling Elders weren't able to keep up with the shepherding needs. I've been in a Church where the Pastor was a faithful shepherd over God's people who ran himself to the ground while the pay he received was an embarassment to vote on, and whose wife had to work to just put groceries on the table. There does have to be a balance.
jambo
Puritan Board Senior
Stuart - I'm not trying to blast you, but your post strikes a nerve to me because it is illustrative of an attitude I've encountered among some, mainly folks in small churches.
I really detest the insinuation that love of money or professional pride, or some other ulterior motive, keeps people from small (and usually poor) churches. A minister is not a money chasing hireling merely because he has real financial obligations that must be met. Families cost money to feed and clothe and keep sheltered. And what's more, few things set me off more quickly than when some church acts like the would-be minister's attitude towards the pay package that obviously won't enable ends to be met should be "the Lord will provide." Talk about pseudo-sanctified sounding recklessness!
One thing I tell people on a regular basis is this: Presbyteries may (and do) err. Inward sense of calling may be misconstrued. The bottom line is that no minister, no matter how gifted he may be or well received he may be by God's people, has God's unchanging and infallible Word declaring to him that he must be a pastor. But I do have God's infallible Word telling me - and every other man - that he has the responsibility to provide for his family.
A minister should not be trying to get rich. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing necessarily wrong with being well paid... but chasing money should be unheard of amongst Christ's undershepherds. At the same time, ministers should not be accused of chasing money just because they have financial obligations to be met.
That said, I for one am leaning more towards doing my 20 - not more, just enough to get my retirement - and then using that income to pay the majority of my family's living costs so that I can be freed to accept a position in a rural environment or maybe plant a church so that I can create my own problems rather than inherit someone else's.
Oh, and one more thing... it really irritates me when a church keeps their pastor on the verge of poverty and then they boast about how much they send off to the mission field. Take care of your own pastor, people!
Apologies and I can understand your rant. Perhaps it wasn’t the most thought out of posts.
I did not intend to imply that Godly men are only in the ministry for financial gain or to enjoy the recognition of being a pastor of a large church. However not all pastors are as Godly as you might wish them to be. I am assuming that the figure of 75 applicants per vacancy is across the denominations. If there are 75 pastors applying for each vacant church you can be sure that number would cover the whole spectrum of pastors and their spiritual qualifications, or indeed lack of.
I have met some pastors who just are not interested in small churches whilst I have also met extremely gifted and humble pastors who remain in small struggling churches and have turned down the invitation to go to larger more prestigious churches.
A number of years ago our church was vacant and we had a lot of interest but during our most recent vacancy we had very little interest, despite the church growing by nearly 20% in between the two periods of vacancy. During this first period I felt we did have a high calibre of interested people. During our second period the opposite was the case. There was little interest and most who did express an interest were discounted on receipt of their CV or having met with them to discuss the vacancy.
I have felt that as a small church we have tried to provide as best we can for our pastor and it has been the concern of the whole church to ensure that the pastor is as comfortable as possible and free from financial worry. And I feel we have succeeded in caring for our pastor in this way.
Trust you enjoyed your rant. I enjoy a good rant myself.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
I did, Sir. Thank you for "listening" as it were.
sdesocio
Puritan Board Freshman
I definitely think part of the problem is guys going through seminary without any external verification of their calling. Students need to be in the local church asap. Men who float will not be prepared after seminary.
(It was only after my first summer internship that I was entirely sure of my internal calling.)
I love the PCA's requirement for a year long internship it creates a situation where a student can be honest with himself, and were session can also confirm or not confirm his internal call.
I have heard the statistic, I wonder how it changes when un ordained men are removed. In our presbytery there are several Assistant Pastor positions, and I know several guys who have gone into a support role in the local church.
Part of the issue is fear and pride. I fear that if the first church that Im a senior pastor at flounders under my ministry Ill be a goner. There is also a decent amount of "Im ready to be the senior" pride which makes young men stumble in asst. pastor positions.
Ive been the asst. pastor for a few years at a PCA church in Pittsburgh, and sensed the call to plant so instead of apply Im fund raising. =)
(It was only after my first summer internship that I was entirely sure of my internal calling.)
I love the PCA's requirement for a year long internship it creates a situation where a student can be honest with himself, and were session can also confirm or not confirm his internal call.
I have heard the statistic, I wonder how it changes when un ordained men are removed. In our presbytery there are several Assistant Pastor positions, and I know several guys who have gone into a support role in the local church.
Part of the issue is fear and pride. I fear that if the first church that Im a senior pastor at flounders under my ministry Ill be a goner. There is also a decent amount of "Im ready to be the senior" pride which makes young men stumble in asst. pastor positions.
Ive been the asst. pastor for a few years at a PCA church in Pittsburgh, and sensed the call to plant so instead of apply Im fund raising. =)
sonlight
Puritan Board Freshman
I see a trend out there of a lot of smaller chuches going away. I'm in a very small independent sovereighn grace Baptist church. From what I hear, there are a lot of older pastors going home to be with the Lord and not many younger ones coming in to replace them. There are several churches out there that have no pastor at all. What our pastor did before he retired was work another regular job to pay the bills but now he is retired so he doesn't have to do that anymore. I thnik other pastors are doing that as well. But if the church takes in a lot of money and is supporting mission works and a whole list of other things but not paying their pastor, that would be like having your truck painted but letting it run out of oil so that the engine blows.
Also, I think that as with any field, a piece of paper from a big name school doesn't mean that you know what you are doing. It doesn't show character or experience or any of the qualities that you really want in an appplicant. With a pastor, you want quite a few things. You want somebody that has the knowledge, the ability to deliver it, the compassion to minister to peoples' needs and patience to teach them, amongst other things. Most of all, the man must be called by God and he must preach the truth no matter how many or whose ears he sets on fire in the process. Too many preachers these days either intentionally or unintentionally try not to say things that might offend and a bit of ear tickling goes on. I want a guy that gets up there and preaches like it is his last sermon on earth. Years ago, I knew this old retired preacher. He told me once that he got rolling on a good old fasioned fire and brimstone you all better wake up sermon. He said I knew they hadn't fallen asleep because half of them left by the time I was done. They all came back the next week he said... most of them anyway. I don't know what denomination he was now I can't remember, but I would sure love to have hear him preach.
I think preaching, really good preaching is a gift from God. Sure the school helps but not everybody that comes out of one is called. I am sure they all think they are, but God has other plans for some of them.
Also, I think that as with any field, a piece of paper from a big name school doesn't mean that you know what you are doing. It doesn't show character or experience or any of the qualities that you really want in an appplicant. With a pastor, you want quite a few things. You want somebody that has the knowledge, the ability to deliver it, the compassion to minister to peoples' needs and patience to teach them, amongst other things. Most of all, the man must be called by God and he must preach the truth no matter how many or whose ears he sets on fire in the process. Too many preachers these days either intentionally or unintentionally try not to say things that might offend and a bit of ear tickling goes on. I want a guy that gets up there and preaches like it is his last sermon on earth. Years ago, I knew this old retired preacher. He told me once that he got rolling on a good old fasioned fire and brimstone you all better wake up sermon. He said I knew they hadn't fallen asleep because half of them left by the time I was done. They all came back the next week he said... most of them anyway. I don't know what denomination he was now I can't remember, but I would sure love to have hear him preach.
I think preaching, really good preaching is a gift from God. Sure the school helps but not everybody that comes out of one is called. I am sure they all think they are, but God has other plans for some of them.
Willem van Oranje
Puritan Board Junior
This is a surprising turn of events as less than two years ago there were articles being written about how there was going to be a shortage of pastors to fill pulpits in Reformed churches, and so they (for example, the OPC) began new, proactive recruitment efforts.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Where have you seen this?
Having a credentialed skill is never a bad thing--especially if it will not derail you. Just keep your eye on the prize and knees on the floor, as it were.
Willem van Oranje
Puritan Board Junior
I'm thinking of such new efforts/events as the Timothy Conferences and the OPC Summer Institute. The first of the Timothy conference in 2008 had been introduced as a measure to prepare for the retirement of the current generation of ministers, seen as being just around the corner.
William Price
Puritan Board Freshman
This is the true solution.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Vows are important, an ordinance of worship, and ought not be taken casually.
It's interesting how the congregation, takes a vow to competently support the Pastors they call.
And in the PCA, at least, the congregation votes on, as part of the congregation confirming the call, a compensation amount. The general amount is known to members at the time of the call- as they will be supporting it.
---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------
It's interesting. Knowing one cannot draw general conclusions from one instance or second hand observation,
I often hear of churches having difficulty filing their pulpits.
My observation here has been 75+ applicants immediately, about 4 of which are "top tier" candidates. The focus promptly goes to the latter, then the search committee works back to session to determine the appropriate compensation for the final candidate, subject to approval of that call by the congregation.
For what it's worth, I'll share my own anecdotal evidence for the contention that there are more guys looking than there are positions available. I was ordained in the PCA to a position that was created with a "shelf-life" of 2 years. (The idea was to give men out of seminary pastoral experience, the opportunity to get ordained, and then they could move on to more a permanent position elsewhere.) Since (actually before) my time there officially came to an end, I have been diligently searching for a pastoral position (assistant, associate, or solo) for about 2.5 years now. My wife and I were married in Oct. of 2008, so my search slackened for a short while after that but soon resumed intensely. I have been looking primarily (but not exclusively) within the PCA. I have made it onto many "short lists," had wonderful conversations and visits with search committees, and so on. We even thought we were finally about to move to accept a call, but our plans changed at the last minute when that presbytery very narrowly decided not to accept my transfer, sending us back to the drawing board. (But that's another story.)
But so far "always a bridesmaid, never a bride." I've been working at local coffee shops in the mean time, filling pulpits occasionally and administering the sacraments regularly at our church while we search and wait. We have had to move in with my parents (who are local) in order to save money, and now we've been blessed with our first child. I can assure you that we are not being picky when it comes to churches or locations. Sure , we have very specific ideas about the kind of churches, locations, philosophies of ministry, etc. that appeal to us more than others. But we really do prayerfully consider just about anything we hear of. (Though I will say that I probably only hear back from one church for every 10-15 that I apply to; I understand that churches are inundated with resumes, but a brief "we received your inquiry" message would be nice.)
I hope this doesn't sound too much like a pity party. We have been so amazingly blessed and cared for in so many ways throughout this time, but it's difficult not to get discouraged at times. I don't think the PCA or the seminaries are to blame for this situation of "candidate over-supply." If I had the gifts for church planting I would have been out there "making my own work" long ago. Yet, despite the long wait, I've never been more sure of my internal call to pastoral ministry within the local church, and I've had that calling regularly confirmed by those around me.
But so far "always a bridesmaid, never a bride." I've been working at local coffee shops in the mean time, filling pulpits occasionally and administering the sacraments regularly at our church while we search and wait. We have had to move in with my parents (who are local) in order to save money, and now we've been blessed with our first child. I can assure you that we are not being picky when it comes to churches or locations. Sure , we have very specific ideas about the kind of churches, locations, philosophies of ministry, etc. that appeal to us more than others. But we really do prayerfully consider just about anything we hear of. (Though I will say that I probably only hear back from one church for every 10-15 that I apply to; I understand that churches are inundated with resumes, but a brief "we received your inquiry" message would be nice.)
I hope this doesn't sound too much like a pity party. We have been so amazingly blessed and cared for in so many ways throughout this time, but it's difficult not to get discouraged at times. I don't think the PCA or the seminaries are to blame for this situation of "candidate over-supply." If I had the gifts for church planting I would have been out there "making my own work" long ago. Yet, despite the long wait, I've never been more sure of my internal call to pastoral ministry within the local church, and I've had that calling regularly confirmed by those around me.
Willem van Oranje
Puritan Board Junior
Given the ages of your average pastor nowadays, it's bound to clear up soon, in 10-15 years tops. There will be a lot of old pastor's stepping down from their usual duties. Then the glut of applicants will be seen as a blessing. They will be badly needed. I think part of what is going on is that pastors are staying in the pulpit longer than they had planned since their nest eggs have shrinked due to the economic downturn.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Thing with those Pastors retiring is (and again this is anecdotal for sure) I have found several small churches that could be (and should be) looking for a Pastor but are satisfied with a semi-retired man or other kind of Stated/Regular Supply filling the pulpit each week and really are not that interested in filling the vacancy. Whether that is "right" or not is up for debate.
Grillsy
Puritan Board Junior
Perhaps this has something to do with the somewhat modern trend of downgrading the purpose of the ordained office.
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
I suspect it is not a matter of churches disrespecting the office, or not wanting pastors. I'm guessing it's just the current economy.
Churches are often affected more than businesses by an economic downturn. Given what's happening to the job market in general, we should not be surprised that churches are reluctant to hire, especially for pastoral positions which require significant expense to retain. As pastors retire or otherwise leave a church, many congregations are simply deciding not to fill vacancies until the economy (and with it, giving) improves.
I haven't seen any stats or surveys to back this up. But based on what has happened in the past to churches in down economies, it would be surprising not to see a situation like the 75-1 applicants-to-jobs ratio mentioned in the OP. We really need to wait for the economy to improve before we can see if there are deeper issues at work here.
Churches are often affected more than businesses by an economic downturn. Given what's happening to the job market in general, we should not be surprised that churches are reluctant to hire, especially for pastoral positions which require significant expense to retain. As pastors retire or otherwise leave a church, many congregations are simply deciding not to fill vacancies until the economy (and with it, giving) improves.
I haven't seen any stats or surveys to back this up. But based on what has happened in the past to churches in down economies, it would be surprising not to see a situation like the 75-1 applicants-to-jobs ratio mentioned in the OP. We really need to wait for the economy to improve before we can see if there are deeper issues at work here.
I have a totally vacant beautiful United Church of Christ building a half a block down from my house. They are so irrelevant here that the church died. I mean they are dead. I can post pics later. There is no Reformed Church in my town. There are obviously Reformed leaning people here. Also, I preach the gospel to many around me. Yes, they know I am not RCC. A RCC is across the street. But the UCC has lost its bearings. Not sure it ever had them. They have always denied the authority of Scripture. I can post pics of this beautiful building. It is empty. Someone should just step up maybe. This is something I have been praying for a number of years.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
It could be exacerbated by the downturn but the glut of pastors and churches choosing Stated Supply over filling a vacancy is not a recent turn of events.
Willem van Oranje
Puritan Board Junior
You may be right, but hard times is a real sorry reason not to call a pastor. This should be at the top of the list before family vacations, gas for holiday travel, ice cream, and Christmas gifts. People should be saving their every last mite to raise the funds required to call a pastor.
I suppose plan B would be merging with another small church or drafting a joint call. I know in the olden days in the Carolinas it was not uncommon to find a Baptist Church and a Presbyterian church with the same pastor, worshipping together, using the same building but with separate order.
---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 PM ----------
I always thought it would be a cool idea for a solidly Reformed brother to get his foot in one of those old historic churches which has become liberal. The only downside is that he might have to join that denomination, which he may not be able to do in good conscience, depending on the circumstances. But at least with the UCC, possibly unlike the PCUSA, RCA, and ECUSA, they have a flat enough structure that you could actually be called by a UCC congregation as their pastor without having to join the UCC yourself.
This is essentially what God used to bring back our congregation from having been over the liberal cliff forty years ago to having come back to its roots in reformed theology through men like Bruce Gordon and Allen Tomlinson. (Although if my knowledge is correct, we never went over to the UCC, even when we were "liberal". We've been independent ever since the time of the merger of the old congregational association with other churches which created the UCC.)
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