Training Men For Pastoral Ministry

[ServantsHeart]

Your understanding of seminary must come from your experience from TMS because that is not my encounter with seminarians.

Andrew your comment about The Masters Seminary,did you mean that as a criticism of that school or simply that he might have seen some less than humble attitudes by some of the Faculty or students there as compared to WSC? I do hope it was not against TMS for we sure do not need tension between the Students and Faculty of these two Seminaries.

 

[Covenant Joel]

Question: how, without the seminary (or some institution of formal education) do we achieve the goal? Distance Ed lacks major, necessary components. How can local congregations efficiently replicate the same resources?

My question and concern is this: do we want an educated ministry? My concern is thatnwe are tempted to alternatives that have the effect of lowering standards. Already many seminaries have given up on the languages. Church history (ahem) ttlgets short shrift. In many places systematic theology is downplayed. Ministerial preparation becomes a Bible school with a little practica. Machen addressed this very problem at the founding of WTS 1929.

We need to recognize that, since the 1820s, there has been a strong anti-intellectual strain in American culture. Thar tendency was at the heart of the pragmatism that dispensed with formal theological/ministerial preparation in the so-called 2nd great awakening.

The proposal to farm out ministerial prep (not to say examination) to the local or even regional church seems to be a step backward. It seems to be an implicit concession that we should just "make do." Most of the proponents of this idea concede that it would mean lowering standards, that candidates won't be as well prepared. Why should we settle for less?

Dr. Clark,

I know you have written on distance education and your argument that it is inadequate in the past, so I won't try to bring up all of those things again, but I would like to point out only a couple of things particularly in reference to what I highlighted above.

(1) Speaking from personal experience, I have learned far more from my distance-ed classes than I did on campus. Working full-time and taking classes part-time, I have both spent more time actually thinking through the issues in my classes, talking over them with mentors, and putting them into practice in the church than I did when I was on campus (I've spent a year in both contexts).

(2) If a "necessary component" that you speak of is interaction with professors, then I have two follow-up questions: First, is it the academic expertise that is at stake? If it is academic knowledge, that can be communicated by distance. Secondly, is it spiritual direction/mentorship that's at stake? I do not know how you can argue that this is better received from seminary professors than leaders in the church. I have gained more from meeting with elders and pastors in my church than I did from professors on campus. That is no knock against seminary professors. They can and did affect me. But that relationship can be had with a pastor, and honestly, in my experience, professors did not have time to spend significant amounts of time with students out of the classroom. Some did more than others, but as a general rule, I've had more interaction through online forums with my profs than I did on campus.

(3) If the necessary component is library or other resources, then I don't see how that holds water. If one lives in a city, or even within reasonable distance of one, there are libraries. E.g., I have 2 seminaries and at least 4 university libraries within an hour of me, and I don't live in that big of a city. And I have electronic access to ATLA/other databases, and any articles not available to me can be scanned and sent to me by our distance librarian.

(4) Lastly, if one trained by distance education can pass the same requirements of presbytery for licensure and ordination (including languages, church history, etc) as those trained on campus, then how is it that the level of ministerial education is going down? There will be no dumbing down of requirements for me just because half of my education was done by distance.

I respect the work of campus seminaries and the work that you do. I enjoyed my time on campus. But I simply don't see the argument holding water that education by distance and overseen in practical experience by the church will dumb down the quality of ministerial education.

 

[KMK]

The job is great, the calling is high. That is why we mustn't settle for educational mediocrity for our ministers. Such a choice will reverberate down through the generations and our grandchildren and their children will curse us for curing them with ignorant ministers.

I agree. I think we should encourage our young men to get a formal seminary education. However, the answer is not a seminary education, but a good seminary education. The rise of liberal seminaries contributes to the ignorance of today's ministers under the guise of formal education. How can a man who doesn't even believe in the inerrancy of Scripture be prepared for the ministry?

 

[R. Scott Clark]

(1) Speaking from personal experience, I have learned far more from my distance-ed classes than I did on campus. Working full-time and taking classes part-time, I have both spent more time actually thinking through the issues in my classes, talking over them with mentors, and putting them into practice in the church than I did when I was on campus (I've spent a year in both contexts).

Joel,

This is not an argument in favor of distance ed. It's an argument in favor of funding seminarians properly. Had you been funded properly in a residential setting you would have benefitted more from your preparation.

I agree that it is difficult to assimilate and appreciate everything that is happening at sem in 3 years. For this reason students are increasingly taking 4 years. That's not a bad thing. Very young men, right out of their undergrad degree, probably should slow down.

(2) If a "necessary component" that you speak of is interaction with professors, then I have two follow-up questions: First, is it the academic expertise that is at stake? If it is academic knowledge, that can be communicated by distance.

If you've read my critique of DE then you know my response. It's not just academic expertise that is at stake. We (the faculty at WSC) are also ministers called by our churches to serve here. We mentor the students by spending time with them outside of class. We can't do that through a video monitor.

I don't accept your premise that expertise is mere data to be transmitted downline. That's a false view of education. A good prof is not just a talking head. We need to spend time with students helping them to understand what they're reading, learning, and how to apply it to ecclesiastical life. That can't be done online.

Secondly, is it spiritual direction/mentorship that's at stake? I do not know how you can argue that this is better received from seminary professors than leaders in the church. I have gained more from meeting with elders and pastors in my church than I did from professors on campus.

See above. I don't accept the dichotomy. I can't speak for other schools but we are both pastors and profs here at WSC.

If one lives in a city, or even within reasonable distance of one, there are libraries. E.g., I have 2 seminaries and at least 4 university libraries within an hour of me,

That's a big if. Seminary libraries are highly specialized and of uneven quality (see below). They are not readily available for everyone. I guess that someone in Lincoln, NE would have to drive a long way (3 hours minimum) to find an average/mediocre sem library.

Well, when I was in Kansas City (about 3 hours from Lincoln) I lived a mile from a large sem and frankly the library was quite disappointing. The periodical room was well stocked but the stacks were inadequate. I don't recall the reference room or if it had one.

Further, as a busy pastor, who was committed to reading, I often found that the press of ministerial duties kept me from the library. Some years I didn't get there at all.

Online/digital books are obviously changing the game but there is a gap. Google books only posts books out of copyright (I hope!). There's a gap between the newly digitized books and the older digitized books.

(4) Lastly, if one trained by distance education can pass the same requirements of presbytery for licensure and ordination (including languages, church history, etc) as those trained on campus, then how is it that the level of ministerial education is going down?

If churches and sems are lowering their standards then the quality of ministerial education will necessarily decline. Yes, candidates want to pass their eccl. trials but that's a bare minimum. One needs to know much more than can be expressed in committee or on the floor of presbytery/classis.

It doesn't follow that because one passed presbytery/classis exams that one is well prepared. I've seen too many examples to the contrary to think that.

---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

I agree. I think we should encourage our young men to get a formal seminary education. However, the answer is not a seminary education, but a good seminary education. The rise of liberal seminaries contributes to the ignorance of today's ministers under the guise of formal education. How can a man who doesn't even believe in the inerrancy of Scripture be prepared for the ministry?

Amen.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I have to confess that I'm wearied by claims or insinuations that the seminary is the only place one can receive a proper education for the ministry, or that the choice is between a seminary and an uneducated ministry.

Ben,

What would be the practical ideal in your view?

AMR

 

[Covenant Joel]

Joel,

This is not an argument in favor of distance ed. It's an argument in favor of funding seminarians properly. Had you been funded properly in a residential setting you would have benefitted more from your preparation.

I see your point. But as far as the point goes, it isn't an argument for one or the other. I think it is a very valuable thing to work a job (I teach at a Christian school) and be studying for seminary at the same time. I only worked 15 hours a week, so I had pretty good funding compared to some. Part of my point is simply that when there is a seminary of decent size, it can be difficult to spend a time doing what I mentioned with professors regardless of the need for employment. There's not enough time to go around.

If you've read my critique of DE then you know my response. It's not just academic expertise that is at stake. We (the faculty at WSC) are also ministers called by our churches to serve here. We mentor the students by spending time with them outside of class. We can't do that through a video monitor.

I don't accept your premise that expertise is mere data to be transmitted downline. That's a false view of education. A good prof is not just a talking head. We need to spend time with students helping them to understand what they're reading, learning, and how to apply it to ecclesiastical life. That can't be done online.

I'm certainly not denigrating the value of time spent with professors in conversation over the issues. But as I said, I've had far more questions answered through the distance program than I did on campus. There were simply too many people wanting questions answered all the time to really spend a lot of time in that. I hear that WSC may be different in that regard, and if so, I'm grateful that God has enabled that to be so there. But I imagine that is the exception rather than the norm, and probably has at least something to do with overall size. And I believe that my professors online have helped to understand issues and to apply them to ecclesiastical life.

See above. I don't accept the dichotomy. I can't speak for other schools but we are both pastors and profs here at WSC.

I'm not supposing a dichotomy. Many professors at Reformed seminaries are/were pastors, which is as it should be, in my opinion. My point is simply that if you are saying distance education is not ok because it doesn't allow for interaction with knowledgeable men about spiritual development, application of Scripture to ministry, and so on, then I just don't follow that this can't happen through distance education with church oversight. I'm certainly not questioning that having a pastor-scholar in seminary isn't one way to do it. It's one valid way. But if one gets the exact same lectures, reads the same books, writes the same papers (and on campus, TAs only ever read my papers, while online, I only have professors grade them, ironically), participates in important discussions, and puts those things into practice with the oversight and mentoring of a pastor, how is that training necessarily inadequate? Certainly it could be, but certainly as well one can come out of the best on-campus seminary experience and not truly be equipped to be a pastor.

That's a big if. Seminary libraries are highly specialized and of uneven quality (see below). They are not readily available for everyone. I guess that someone in Lincoln, NE would have to drive a long way (3 hours minimum) to find an average/mediocre sem library. Well, when I was in Kansas City (about 3 hours from Lincoln) I lived a mile from a large sem and frankly the library was quite disappointing. The periodical room was well stocked but the stacks were inadequate. I don't recall the reference room or if it had one.

That's true, I suppose, but even then, inter-library loan, while slower, can certainly get the job done if necessary.

Further, as a busy pastor, who was committed to reading, I often found that the press of ministerial duties kept me from the library. Some years I didn't get there at all.

Online/digital books are obviously changing the game but there is a gap. Google books only posts books out of copyright (I hope!). There's a gap between the newly digitized books and the older digitized books.

If churches and sems are lowering their standards then the quality of ministerial education will necessarily decline. Yes, candidates want to pass their eccl. trials but that's a bare minimum. One needs to know much more than can be expressed in committee or on the floor of presbytery/classis.

You're assuming that presbyteries are lowering their standards. I'm sure that this is the case in some places. But if in a presbytery with high standards one with a distance degree (and experience) passes the same tests and has the same knowledge and call to ministry, I'm not sure how we say that he is unfit for ministry.

It doesn't follow that because one passed presbytery/classis exams that one is well prepared. I've seen too many examples to the contrary to think that.

And many of those that passed but were not truly prepared came from on-campus programs. I've known many who passed exams that weren't truly prepared, and they all went to respected Reformed seminaries. I've known some who passed exams, seem to truly be prepared, and received their education by distance primarily. That seems to suggest to me that both are viable alternatives, but that there are a variety of other factors that determine whether one is truly prepared or not, rather than a litmus test of brick-and-mortar versus distance.

Anyhow, I'm guessing we won't come to agree on this on the PB. But I genuinely do appreciate your thoughts, as well as the fact that as a seminary prof you take the time to interact with some of us here. While I chose to finally go the distance route, I respect the work that you do as WSC nonetheless.

 

[ServantsHeart]

It seems to me that we have gotten to a point where we are going around in circles on this Thread. I started it and unless we can cover some new ground on this issue I suggest we end it here.
I appreciate all the input on the issue,it has generated much thought and good content from different points of view. If you wish to make a few closing remarks yet unspoken please do so,otherwise I desire a peaceful end to our discussion. May we pray about the issue before the Head of us all and pray the wisest Prayer we can. Lord not our will but Your will be done. Amen

Thanks & GOD Bless You All, In Christ Stephen Cox

 

[rpeters]

Stephen,



Robert,

I don't know much about the LAMP program but the little I've seen and heard about it concerns me. I've talked to people involved in it and they seem to recognize that they are not getting the same sort of training they would in a traditional residential, setting. The great stumbling block seems to be funding. If our Reformed and Presbyterian churches would value ministerial education properly we could overcome the funding problem.

I've tried to address your concerns in the various pieces linked to my post above.

Can you be specific about your problems or concerns and what type of involvement have you had. Are you going to this years Gospel Coalition?

 

[Micah Everett]

I never thought I would find myself writing a post in which I agree (mostly) with Dr. Clark, but then again I don't post very often anyway, and after making the Baptist to Presbyterian "switch" perhaps I no longer find myself on the opposite side of as many of his arguments as I once did.

I have "sort of" seen both sides of this educational question. I am a music professor at a small state university, where I teach no online courses (although the pressure from the administration to offer such courses increases every year). While I have never taken an online course in my major field, last month I completed, after 20 months of part-time study, one of PRTS's 18-credit graduate certificates through distance learning. So, I have some first-hand experience with both forms of delivery and study.

I am very grateful for the opportunity I had with PRTS. For someone like me who wants to know the Scriptures better, to teach them better, and to offer a better defense of the faith to those that do not believe (of which there are many in my workplace), but is not seeking to enter the ministry, such programs are ideal. Lord willing, I will take more such courses in the future if time and finances permit, and if the Lord does not call me to full-time ministry.

That said, over the years I have increasingly noticed at work that some of the most important teaching moments that I have with my students happen at times that are informal or unplanned. Granted, as an applied music teacher I spend much more time with students individually than do professors in perhaps most other fields, but nevertheless for many students the "light bulb" moments happen when perhaps a student has stopped by my office just to chat or to have coffee, or as we are backstage before a performing engagement, or when they or I discover some new recording or piece of music and want to share it. I am, of course, always available to answer my students' questions via email or even text message, but often it is not until we are in the midst of one of these "unplanned teaching moments" that the student even knows what question to ask! This cannot be replicated in a distance learning situation, at least not efficiently.

Again, I have nothing but praise for the distance learning experience that I have had, but while Dr. Beeke was always willing to answer my questions via email, on one occasion spoke to me on the phone for a half-hour or so about a certain matter, and even published one of my papers in the PRJ, the distance learning environment does not allow for the type of "community of learning" which I outlined in the previous paragraph. This, I think, is vital for a thorough education, and while I am glad that many seminaries offer distance opportunities for individuals like me, and perhaps even for continuing education for pastors already ministering in the field, I do think ultimately it has to be found wanting compared to on-site study. If our Lord ever calls me to full-time ministry, you can expect to see me on-campus at one of our fine Reformed seminaries.

 

[ServantsHeart]

Again, I have nothing but praise for the distance learning experience that I have had, but while Dr. Beeke was always willing to answer my questions via email, on one occasion spoke to me on the phone for a half-hour or so about a certain matter, and even published one of my papers in the PRJ, the distance learning environment does not allow for the type of "community of learning" which I outlined in the previous paragraph. This, I think, is vital for a thorough education, and while I am glad that many seminaries offer distance opportunities for individuals like me, and perhaps even for continuing education for pastors already ministering in the field, I do think ultimately it has to be found wanting compared to on-site study. If our Lord ever calls me to full-time ministry, you can expect to see me on-campus at one of our fine Reformed seminaries.

Great Post Micah! This is good and new, in that you have and do both, so you can speak to the issue with pratical expierence.
We all I think basically agree that, face to face is better and a must in Pastoral Training. Interacting with a Pastor/Professor is great or even a Pastor/Teacher is needful and very beneficial. On site study as well is better, on this I agree as well as most who have commented. The sticking point has been the Seminary being "The Only Place" where this of which you have spoken of can be done to the highest degree. And that the local Church even if it has a Theologiacl School for training men, can't provide the training required for the Pastoral Ministry based on the points made by Professor Clark. Thank you for the fresh insights Brother.