Trying to make a decision on seminary: WTS, CTS, or CTS

[athanatos]

Hey, I realize this is my first post, so I will introduce myself elsewhere soon.

In my junior year at Central Michigan Uni I felt God was calling me to seminary, for the purpose of teaching (Masters of Theo Studies is one option). I actually went from computer science to family studies (and counseling), and then changed again to a psychology and philosophy double-major. I was involved with campus ministry in part, then I was put into the position of director of college ministry for my church (a local baptist variety), and I've since graduated. Being involved in such a capacity, my heart grew for students all the more. I don't know if I could willingly bow out of the level of activity in a church. The last 8 months I have been involved with college ministry as volunteer staff for Campus Crusade for Christ.

So, I've been saving up for seminary, active in the ministry, seeing a lot of growth. I am looking forward to seminary this Fall. I applied to Calvin Seminary, Covenant Seminary, and Westminster Seminary (PA). I have been accepted to both CTS's for their MTS/MAET, but haven't heard back anything yet from WTS except that they received my app and it'll take a while (they still haven't cashed the check for the app fee).

Now it is getting down to the wire and I still don't know where to go. I've been praying, I've been talking with a lot of people about it (elders, peers, even faculty), and it is getting frustrating not being decisive. Here's my hang-up:
I don't know if I am focusing on minor issues and blowing them out of proportion, I don't know if I am not taking the issues seriously. I want a tight, Reformed (covenant theology) school, with some good academic reputation to allow for for Ph.D work afterward, and a good program for learning the languages and get a good sys theology.

Calvin was my top priority for over a year (I check out their campus in Oct '09) because of overall cost, location (it is 2 hr from home, family, friends, and my girlfriend -- I am not married or engaged), strong reformed stance, and all the fun stuff (beautiful campus, awesome library, reputation, etc.). Why it has dropped down on my list is this: I had been reading up on the CRC (part of the opinions expressed were from posters on this site!) and I'm not liking where they are headed. Ordination of women, Belhar confession, and bringing to the table things that, while important to discuss, are really not things we can fudge on. While you don't have to be CRC to enroll, I am not sure what significance it is if I am led to change to the M.Div and would be ordained in the CRC.

Westminster was on my radar back in '09 too. Being 12hr away and near a large, historical city isn't bad in my book. I really liked it there when I visited in March of '10. Nothing I disliked about the seminary, but it did cost more and was much farther away. (I didn't have a girlfriend at the time either, so now the 12 hr feels less appealing) ... I feel like ruling out WTS for now, thinking that it would definitely be an excellent school to go for a Ph.D.

Covenant was on back burner for me originally because their tuition was by far the highest (when in reality, their overall costs put together are just a little more than Calvin, and a bit less than WTS), I never checked out their campus in person, and it was pretty far away in a city I've never visited or really had an interest in. But I had been aware of them because of their free online courses, which I've taken (four?) and found were pretty tight. They are PCA, so similar content as WTS with a theologically conservative stance, but closer by a little bit, a little less costly, and has already accepted me.


Now, there are a lot more factors at play here. But money, distance from anyone I know, theological orientation, recommendation of my pastor/elders, all factor in.

In one sense, I want to see what you all think of these schools (Calvin, Covenant, and Westminster-PA, but also if you might gather that I am putting too much emphasis on minor things and should give weight to other issues. I appreciate any and all feedback.

- Jonathanatos

 

[devonturnbaugh]

Jonathan, welcome to PB. I am also a reformed baptist and went through a similar issue of choosing a school as you have. I live in STL and ended up choosing to go to Covenant based on theology, proximity, and overall appreciation for staff. I looked at both westminster and at calvin as well as the major baptist seminaries before landing up with Covenant. Also if you are a reformed baptist you will find, at least in my dealings with them, that they are very friendly and have a high percentage of them enrolled. Honestly for us(my wife and two children) one of the biggest factors was proximity to church family and friends. Also STL is a beautiful place with lots of fun stuff. Hope this was somewhat helpful.

 

[Jack K]

Calvin Seminary is not only part of the CRC but is on the more liberal edge of the CRC. Some segments of that denomination (like the misions agencies) remain fairly conservative. But the seminary, and for sure the college and publications, are generally considered to be closer to the liberal wing of the denomination. So you are wise to consider this carefully before enrolling at Calvin.

If your theology is conservative and you ultimately were ordained in the CRC, again you might find yourself in tension with that denomination, especially in some classes. I know conservative pastors who really struggle there, although some end up hunting out a conservative classis and/or church and remain fairly happy. Just be aware of this going in.

By general reputation within the Reformed community, I think you'd find both Westminster Philly and Covenant to be solid schools, even though each would probably have a handful of detractors on this board for some reason or another.

 

[KSon]

Westminster was on my radar back in '09 too. Being 12hr away and near a large, historical city isn't bad in my book. I really liked it there when I visited in March of '10. Nothing I disliked about the seminary, but it did cost more and was much farther away. (I didn't have a girlfriend at the time either, so now the 12 hr feels less appealing) ... I feel like ruling out WTS for now, thinking that it would definitely be an excellent school to go for a Ph.D.

- Jonathanatos

Boy, the opportunity to study under Beale and Trueman would be hard to pass up if I were in a different season of life. Didn't get a chance to study under Beale while he was 20 minutes away in Wheaton.

 

[N. Eshelman]

Since you are so close to Grand Rapids, why don't you look at Puritan Reformed Seminary? There are a number of Reformed Baptists that study there and there are a number of visiting professors who are Baptist as well.

If you have questions about PRTS, let me know.

 

[iainduguid]

You mentioned that you hadn't heard about acceptance yet from Westminster. I wouldn't sweat that too much. If you have a gpa over 2.0 (and often even less) and have the funds, you will usually be accepted by most seminaries (unless one of your references thinks you might be an axe-murderer).

For what it's worth, my son is at Westminster in Philadelphia and is loving it.

Iain Duguid

 

[Bookmeister]

I spent 30 years in Stl and for what it's worth I moved to Jackson, MS to go to seminary. RTS Jackson is a great school. I also concur with Nathan, if distance is a big issue you can't go wrong with PRTS.

I am now in the URC and spent some time in the CRC. I would cross Calvin off your list. It has a reformed name but in practice is Mainline liberal.

 

[fredtgreco]

Another option that is not too far from where you are is Mid America Seminary in Dyer, IN.

I am also an RTS Jackson grad, and think that is worth checking out.

 

[athanatos]

Jonathan, welcome to PB.

Thanks

I am also a reformed baptist and went through a similar issue of choosing a school as you have. I live in STL and ended up choosing to go to Covenant based on theology, proximity, and overall appreciation for staff. I looked at both westminster and at calvin as well as the major baptist seminaries before landing up with Covenant. Also if you are a reformed baptist you will find, at least in my dealings with them, that they are very friendly and have a high percentage of them enrolled. Honestly for us(my wife and two children) one of the biggest factors was proximity to church family and friends. Also STL is a beautiful place with lots of fun stuff. Hope this was somewhat helpful.

Thanks. As far as being baptist, I am starting to shy away and head more Presbyterian. I am also vehemently against strong Dispensational schools, like Dallas. Grand Rapids (seminary of Cornerstone) also has a Dispensational tradition, so I want to avoid them too. My hang-up is that I am not sure if I am giving the wrong things weight -- allowing women ordination, dispensationalist theology, proximity to family and friends?

Meanwhile, all three of the seminaries have been extremely friendly, welcoming and encouraging.

Calvin Seminary is not only part of the CRC but is on the more liberal edge of the CRC. Some segments of that denomination (like the misions agencies) remain fairly conservative. But the seminary, and for sure the college and publications, are generally considered to be closer to the liberal wing of the denomination. So you are wise to consider this carefully before enrolling at Calvin.

If your theology is conservative and you ultimately were ordained in the CRC, again you might find yourself in tension with that denomination, especially in some classes. I know conservative pastors who really struggle there, although some end up hunting out a conservative classis and/or church and remain fairly happy. Just be aware of this going in.

I was told by my PCA friend that being ordained CRC would be accepted by PCA were I to enter into pastoral ministry, and that bit of info only reinforces my hunch that I am complaining about Calvin. I also heard that CTS is not necessarily representative of CRC; and vice versa, thus allowing the seminary to float above a lot of these nasty fights and just give some good, straight education.

By general reputation within the Reformed community, I think you'd find both Westminster Philly and Covenant to be solid schools, even though each would probably have a handful of detractors on this board for some reason or another.

That was my hunch.

Westminster was on my radar back in '09 too. Being 12hr away and near a large, historical city isn't bad in my book. I really liked it there when I visited in March of '10. Nothing I disliked about the seminary, but it did cost more and was much farther away. (I didn't have a girlfriend at the time either, so now the 12 hr feels less appealing) ... I feel like ruling out WTS for now, thinking that it would definitely be an excellent school to go for a Ph.D.

- Jonathanatos

Boy, the opportunity to study under Beale and Trueman would be hard to pass up if I were in a different season of life. Didn't get a chance to study under Beale while he was 20 minutes away in Wheaton.

That's another point: I am not familiar enough with many of their faculty to know which is best staffed.

Since you are so close to Grand Rapids, why don't you look at Puritan Reformed Seminary? There are a number of Reformed Baptists that study there and there are a number of visiting professors who are Baptist as well.

If you have questions about PRTS, let me know.

I believe I did take a look at them. They are a bit small and don't have a big reputation. Not that reputation is everything, I am thinking about how MTS is a stepping stone for Ph.D, and I want to get into a good program.

You mentioned that you hadn't heard about acceptance yet from Westminster. I wouldn't sweat that too much. If you have a gpa over 2.0 (and often even less) and have the funds, you will usually be accepted by most seminaries (unless one of your references thinks you might be an axe-murderer).

For what it's worth, my son is at Westminster in Philadelphia and is loving it.

Iain Duguid

Yeah, I have yet found nothing wrong with WTS, except I heard a while back they had some issues with faculty or something. In any case, no response, distance, and cost are the only things discouraging me from going there this Fall.

I spent 30 years in Stl and for what it's worth I moved to Jackson, MS to go to seminary. RTS Jackson is a great school. I also concur with Nathan, if distance is a big issue you can't go wrong with PRTS.

I am now in the URC and spent some time in the CRC. I would cross Calvin off your list. It has a reformed name but in practice is Mainline liberal.

As far as distance is concerned, I was hoping I could drive home in a single day, even if it didn't mean I would be able to come home (mt. pleasant) on weekends. That doesn't matter that much to me. Meanwhile, my gf really doesn't want me to go away, which is making it hard. I am giving it weight, I just don't want to give it too much weight.

Another option that is not too far from where you are is Mid America Seminary in Dyer, IN.

I am also an RTS Jackson grad, and think that is worth checking out.

I checked out MidA sem and RTS, and I opted out of both for the same reason (given above) as skipping out on RPTS.

Anyone have a feeling I am missing some piece here? Like, that I am not giving some weight to some important factor, or that I am caring about things that won't matter when I am studying/after I graduate the program?
----edit-----
I wonder if a better way of wording this would be, for those who would seek seminary, how might you decide/by what criteria would you make your final decision? what factors would you take into account?

 

[Covenant Joel]

I checked out MidA sem and RTS, and I opted out of both for the same reason (given above) as skipping out on RPTS.

RTS is not a small seminary with limited reputation. It's the largest Reformed seminary in the States (campuses in Orlando, Jackson, Charlotte, D.C., Atlanta, Virtual). I've known people to go into Ph.D. program at Calvin, Westminster, Wheaton, and another guy at Princeton for a Th.M. after RTS, if that's what you're concerned about.

 

[Quatchu]

I have to agree with Jeol. RTS is far from a small school and reputation wise probable one of the best reformed schools in North America and i would be surprised if it was not one of the best in the world.

 

[athanatos]

RTS is not a small seminary with limited reputation. It's the largest Reformed seminary in the States (campuses in Orlando, Jackson, Charlotte, D.C., Atlanta, Virtual). I've known people to go into Ph.D. program at Calvin, Westminster, Wheaton, and another guy at Princeton for a Th.M. after RTS, if that's what you're concerned about.

Wow, I appear to have misunderstood them when I researched them before. I knew they had a lot of different campuses; maybe I was just looking at a particular one which was small. As far as reputation, apparently I did downplay it. I apologize.
---edit---
Now I remember. I did consider them seriously before, but I dropped them when I realized I did not want to be displaced that distance. Reputation did not seem huge to me, though. So maybe that was my own ignorance. Meanwhile, it looks like they have changed their website from a white, silver and grey, to a brown, red and black.

 

[mjmacvey]

Jonathan,

Given your possible goal of doing PhD work, I think WTS is the best option among those that you listed. That is not to say that you can't go on to do post-graduate work with a degree from the others (or RTS as has been mentioned), but you will be best equipped to do so with the Westminster degree.

I am not sure if you have explored/considered Westminster Seminary California at all, but I would be happy to answer any questions you have. Though we are a bit smaller than our mother seminary (WTS), we have sent a good number of graduates on to do PhD work in Biblical Studies, Systematic Theology and Historical Theology (I can send you a list if you are interested). We are still accepting applications for the Summer/Fall and we still have plenty of financial aid left as well. Contact me if I can help.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------

I forgot to mention that we have a cooperative relationship with the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies (and quite a few reformed baptist students at WSC). I would encourage you to contact Dr. Jim Renihan if you have questions about this program.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

If Jackson, Mississippi was too far for him I don't think Escondido is closer.

 

[Pilgrim]

The consideration of what school to take the M.A. from could depend on where you'd anticipate doing your Ph.D. Others will be more familiar with the landscape, but if you anticipate doing Ph.D. studies at a Reformed school as opposed to a secular school, any of the above mentioned seminaries would probably be fine provided they have the program you're looking for. I think some would advise going to a more solid school theologically at the Master's level so that you will have a solid foundation.

 

[Damon Rambo]

Sorry, but I have to do this...

You are Reformed Baptist!@!!W The Premier (in my opinion) Seminary in the Country is only 7 hours south of you! Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, man, in Louisville. Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Don Whitney, Russell Moore, Kevin Smith...not to mention guest lecturers like R.C. Sproul, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever...

O.K. Rant completed. Carry on.

 

[DMcFadden]

Unless you are unusually discriminating and solid, Calvin would be a mistake in my opinion.

I echo the sentiment that Westminster (either one) would be a solid preparation for PhD work.

If you want to do teaching, seminaries tend to prefer a terminal degree from a university and sometimes look down on a PhD awarded by a seminary. With that in mind, you want a VERY solid theological foundation, not one that leaves you uncertain as you enter the PhD phase.

Some of my classmates went on to do their PhD work in major universities after their "cafeteria" theological education (e.g, lack of a unified theological position by professors, more emphasis upon the questions than the answers, and a general "on the one hand . . . on the other hand" approach to basic questions). The result was not just "leaning" left, it was drowning in it. One of my brightest "evangelical" classmates came back from PhD work claiming that Jesus had no idea that he was God. An intern of mine blurted out in class: "Didn't Peter . . . like 'tip him off' at Caesarea Philippi?"

 

[athanatos]

The consideration of what school to take the M.A. from could depend on where you'd anticipate doing your Ph.D. Others will be more familiar with the landscape, but if you anticipate doing Ph.D. studies at a Reformed school as opposed to a secular school, any of the above mentioned seminaries would probably be fine provided they have the program you're looking for. I think some would advise going to a more solid school theologically at the Master's level so that you will have a solid foundation.

Above mentioned -> by other posters, me, or both?

Unless you are unusually discriminating and solid, Calvin would be a mistake in my opinion.

I know a lot of people are saying this, but why would you hold that opinion?

I echo the sentiment that Westminster (either one) would be a solid preparation for PhD work.

If you want to do teaching, seminaries tend to prefer a terminal degree from a university and sometimes look down on a PhD awarded by a seminary. With that in mind, you want a VERY solid theological foundation, not one that leaves you uncertain as you enter the PhD phase.

Some of my classmates went on to do their PhD work in major universities after their "cafeteria" theological education (e.g, lack of a unified theological position by professors, more emphasis upon the questions than the answers, and a general "on the one hand . . . on the other hand" approach to basic questions). The result was not just "leaning" left, it was drowning in it. One of my brightest "evangelical" classmates came back from PhD work claiming that Jesus had no idea that he was God. An intern of mine blurted out in class: "Didn't Peter . . . like 'tip him off' at Caesarea Philippi?"

This is an important, serious point that seems to keep coming up. I do think I need a solid foundation for my MA. I was not sure whether I'd go for a Ph.D at a seminary, and I wanted to aim high.

Sorry, but I have to do this...
You are Reformed Baptist!@!!W The Premier (in my opinion) Seminary in the Country is only 7 hours south of you! Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, man, in Louisville. Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Don Whitney, Russell Moore, Kevin Smith...not to mention guest lecturers like R.C. Sproul, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever...

O.K. Rant completed. Carry on.

Well, that seminary was the first one I visited, and I planned on applying. Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step. Sure, I could include that on the app and they could make an exception, but at the point I was putting out the apps I just didn't know if I wanted to go there anymore since I felt stronger about Calvin and Westminster.

 

[Kiffin]

Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step.

Just curious--what were those clauses?

I know you were looking for a "tight" reformed school but have you considered TEDS or Wheaton? What field of study were you thinking about pursuing?

 

[rpeters]

I was told by my PCA friend that being ordained CRC would be accepted by PCA were I to enter into pastoral ministry, and that bit of info only reinforces my hunch that I am complaining about Calvin. I also heard that CTS is not necessarily representative of CRC; and vice versa, thus allowing the seminary to float above a lot of these nasty fights and just give some good, straight education.

Depends on the presbytery.

 

[athanatos]

Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step.

Just curious--what were those clauses?

Well, the one that jumps out in my mind was about alcohol. Members cannot buy, sell or consume alcohol. To me, that's not only silly, it is unbiblical. Jesus couldn't be a member at our church (admittedly, we live in a different age, where we have a lot cleaner sources of drink). But this also means we can't be gas station attendants, waiters/waitresses, and so on. Meanwhile, I occasionally drink, but never to excess. That's Biblical.

I think the other two had to do with wording more than the content, but I am not sure. I thought it was something about the Bible that seemed to be too elevated (can't remember), and something about Mary. I have a feeling that they were just archaic, but not serious errors. I can check it if you'd like.

I know you were looking for a "tight" reformed school but have you considered TEDS or Wheaton? What field of study were you thinking about pursuing?

I did check TEDS out. I don't think I checked out Wheaton. At this point, I really am not sure I can/want to apply to any other seminaries. My aim is to teach theology ultimately; but am frustrated that I am not dead-set on that, since philosophy is a passion of mine (however limited market). I want to study for the languages and systematic theology, and from there continue more study so I can narrow my focus.

I was told by my PCA friend that being ordained CRC would be accepted by PCA were I to enter into pastoral ministry, and that bit of info only reinforces my hunch that I am complaining about Calvin. I also heard that CTS is not necessarily representative of CRC; and vice versa, thus allowing the seminary to float above a lot of these nasty fights and just give some good, straight education.

Depends on the presbytery.

Not surprised. And just because you get a M.Div in PCA doesn't mean you'll be in a congregation too, either, right?

 

[puritanpilgrim]

Well, that seminary was the first one I visited, and I planned on applying. Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step. Sure, I could include that on the app and they could make an exception, but at the point I was putting out the apps I just didn't know if I wanted to go there anymore since I felt stronger about Calvin and Westminster.

Why would any seminary let you attend if you weren't a member of a church?

 

[fredtgreco]

I was told by my PCA friend that being ordained CRC would be accepted by PCA were I to enter into pastoral ministry, and that bit of info only reinforces my hunch that I am complaining about Calvin. I also heard that CTS is not necessarily representative of CRC; and vice versa, thus allowing the seminary to float above a lot of these nasty fights and just give some good, straight education.

Depends on the presbytery.

Not surprised. And just because you get a M.Div in PCA doesn't mean you'll be in a congregation too, either, right?

It does depend, but I would need to tell you, brother, that a degree from Calvin will be viewed as a big minus in the PCA. The fact of it is that many pulpit committees will simply toss a Calvin application without further review. Others will view it very skeptically. You will be grilled (heavily) over fundamental issues, because Calvin has gone so far to pot. If you are looking to pastor in the PCA, I would not attend Calvin. in my opinion, looking at it from a PhD level is a big mistake. Do you realize how many positions in the whole country require a PhD? Do you have any idea how unlikely it is to get one of those positions?

 

[athanatos]

Well, that seminary was the first one I visited, and I planned on applying. Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step. Sure, I could include that on the app and they could make an exception, but at the point I was putting out the apps I just didn't know if I wanted to go there anymore since I felt stronger about Calvin and Westminster.

Why would any seminary let you attend if you weren't a member of a church?

In many (most?) cases, I would say it should raise a red flag. But why would do you think it should bar you entirely?

I know I need not defend a seminary's decision to accept me, but I think exceptions can be reasonable (even if not ideal) if various conditions are met, such as accountability, activity, maturity, etc. in a similar fashion as a member. In my case, I have been under authority at this church for 14+ yr, and have been commissioned to be over others in my church for 5+ years. Regarding doctrine, I did not consider it significant enough to leave the church, because I grew up there. My family is there. My friends are there. I get fed. I am not proud of being a non-member who is active and has some authority. I am eager to get into a new community when I move, that I may take that step.

Not surprised. And just because you get a M.Div in PCA doesn't mean you'll be in a congregation too, either, right?

It does depend, but I would need to tell you, brother, that a degree from Calvin will be viewed as a big minus in the PCA. The fact of it is that many pulpit committees will simply toss a Calvin application without further review. Others will view it very skeptically. You will be grilled (heavily) over fundamental issues, because Calvin has gone so far to pot. If you are looking to pastor in the PCA, I would not attend Calvin. in my opinion, looking at it from a PhD level is a big mistake.

I think I am going to decide that Calvin is not for me. Both my pastor, some hunches I had, and near-concensus from you guys kinda tells me I should not go there.

Do you realize how many positions in the whole country require a PhD? Do you have any idea how unlikely it is to get one of those positions?

No, I really don't know how unlikely.

 

[athanatos]

Just got accepted by Westminster!

---edit---
Just paid tuition deposit at Covenant.

 

[jjraby]

Even though its not on your perspective lists. NOT RTS Jackson..

 

[athanatos]

I like your avatar. Mind saying why not RTS Jackson? I'm not really considering that place, in any case.

 

[jjraby]

I like your avatar. Mind saying why not RTS Jackson? I'm not really considering that place, in any case.

I attend here now. This place is on life support. Nothing against RTS in general, Its just that this campus needs a revival, and it probably won't happen. Its in a bad part of town, In, arguably, the most conservative PCA presbytery (people call it Military Valley), and it is located in a blighted city. And certainly the gospel needs to be proclaimed here. But the only outreach arm of this seminary that i have seen has been the counseling center. The rest of the seminary sits behind it's gates and guard tower (They are needed). The Seminary, aside from the counseling program, is dying. it's bleeding professors (We just lost Derek Thomas) and Mdiv enrollment has been trending down. Over emphasis on the languages causes people like me, who aren't interested in becoming Greek or Hebrew scholars loathe the original languages because they way they are pushed. A lack of a practical theology department is a major problem as well.

Need i say more?

 

[Zenas]

That's very odd. In all honesty, the pastors I hold in the highest regard either graduated from or taught at RTS Jackson.

 

[jjraby]

That's very odd. In all honesty, the pastors I hold in the highest regard either graduated from or taught at RTS Jackson.

They were probably here when RTS Jackson was either the only RTS. Alot has changed here. By the way Andrew, Derek Thomas is going to an ARP church.