Trying to make sense of Eschatology/Current Events

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JBaldwin

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
When it comes to eschatology, I left the dispensational camp years ago, because I could find little support of that view in Scripture. I was, however, deeply indoctrinated into that line of thinking, and I can't help looking at what is going on in the world and wondering if maybe, at least to some point, the dispensationalists were right. And truthfully, no one that I have talked to in the theological cirlces (with the exception of the PB, and not much here from what I can tell), has anyone been able to help me look at the world scene and give me an explanation of world events from Scripture as nicely as the dispensationalists.

Before you all go nuts on me, please hear me out, I am not a dispensationalist. While I cannot go along with, seven years tribulation, church age, rapture ideas, etc. it is uncanny to me how the dispensationalists have been able (for decades) to predict what will happen on the world scene, and I wonder if there is any validity to their arguments.

Here are some of my questions. And even while I ask them, I realize that I shouldn't be trying to squish current events into Scripture.

Will there be ONE Antichrist (above all the hundreds who have shown up over the centuries) who rule the entire world? Is that taught in Scripture?

Will the USA fall into oblivian as the dispensationalists have predicted, because it is not mentioned in Scripture?

If the dispensaltionalists are so wrong, how is it that they were able to predict the reunification of Europe under the EU 50 years ago?

What do the Scriptures teach about the end of the last days before Christ's return? "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." comes to mind.

Does anyone out there have some answers? I really don't want to start a debate on viewpoints, but rather discuss the views and how they fit in with current events.
 
All I know is that the Amil position sees Christ as reigning right now and that we Christians are ruling with him right now. As far as events go, there are ups and downs and whether the bodily return of Christ for judgment is after a revival or mass apostasy that He will judge. As far as dispensationalists being able to "predict" things, if you study economy and things like that, you can predict alot, however the Dispensationalists have written and rewritten so many of there views, since they are constantly wrong on the events just being a day away. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I in this can answer, I'm a beginner in this area.
 
All I know is that the Amil position sees Christ as reigning right now and that we Christians are ruling with him right now. As far as events go, there are ups and downs and whether the bodily return of Christ for judgment is after a revival or mass apostasy that He will judge. As far as dispensationalists being able to "predict" things, if you study economy and things like that, you can predict alot, however the Dispensationalists have written and rewritten so many of there views, since they are constantly wrong on the events just being a day away. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I in this can answer, I'm a beginner in this area.

Charlie,

I would agree with you somewhat, though I am not speaking of the crazy predictions of days and times, but rather the general direction of things. While I would agree with the belief that Christ is on the throne now, I am wondering if there will be a major attempt by the powers of darkness to overthrow Christ before it's all over.
 
I have found the mp3 lessons on Monergism to be very helpful. I'm currently listening to Kim Riddlebarger's "Amillenialism 101" lessons found here: Monergism :: Amillennialism 101

I have found these to be very helpful because Kim used to be dispensational, and he is very respectful of them (and he accurately presents their position). He talks about the Dispensational's uncanny ability to adapt to current events, even to the point of republishing the same book three times under a different name (with the prophecy being fulfilled by Iran instead of Russia (like the book before) instead of Germany (like the book before) . . .). It's good stuff.

Kim believes that their will be a time of darkening and "loosing of Satan," as it were, before the Lord comes.
 
I like this....

AS my most recent study....

Welcome to the Web Site of the Historicism Research Foundation.

But on the other hand.....

I will say, there must be something to the fact, that Oprah--Americas' Priestess, and emotional leader to the "Heads" of American households in mass--women--combined with Obama--the new Leader of the free world--and the fact that both their names start with O and and end with a (if you drop the silent h) and they sort of rhyme....:think: Anti-Christ and the Beast???

Obviously, I'm having fun here, and giving an example of how Dispensationalists predict things, and make things work to their eschatology, but, it's scary no matter what your view, with those two influencing America.:eek:
 
Two points:
1) Evil will always be here in the world until Jesus comes again. Things may well become almost intolerable in almost every place just before Jesus comes again. But this assessment too may be a "relative " concept. Just think how vast the world is, and all its diversity. I do not see how there could be uniformly devastating attacks on all Christians at one particular time, worldwide. The logistics of Haman's planned attack on the Jews in the book of Esther were hugely complex, and over a fraction of the earth's surface. Technology has increased man's reach and power, but the pure apocalyptic vision of the Dispensationalists seems to me to be fueled by as much science fiction as by takes on Bible verses.

I'm far more comfortable with the idea that the world will continue to be fractured, while Satan's end-game machinations may well be permitted to coordinate a great amount hostility when he is "released for a little while." But I do not see that there is any necessary connection between anything we see right now and the shape of things to come, outside the hard black-and-white of good and evil.

2) Our "time horizon" is sooooooo limited. Couldn't things have appeared to be going downhill to the END in 1500? With corruption within the church, and the Turk on the march, why shouldn't the world be ending right about then? But then came the Reformation. Why can't there be some more revival and ups as well as downs before the END? We are in danger of determining the times by the conditions of the times, when we can only really determine the TIME (the end of this AGE, inaugurated 2000 years ago by Christ's success) by the fact that Jesus hasn't returned YET.

This is the SAME error as the mistakes of the delirious optimists--mostly liberals--who saw Christianity as a vehicle of humanistic "world progress" a hundred years ago. Just the reverse reading of the conditions of the times.

"Take heart," said Jesus. "The world hates you, but I have overcome the world."
 
What do the Scriptures teach about the end of the last days before Christ's return? "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." comes to mind.

Consider Mat 24:33 as you look at the things that Christ tells His disciples will happen...

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

That should help you to interpret the events that Jesus is speaking of.

Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place - The Roman cohort in the Temple at its destruction

A tribulation such as has never been nor will ever be - not speaking of numbers of people dying or any such thing, but rather great in terms of a covenantal shift. It's interesting that He brings up Noah, because that was also a time of great convenantal shift. The shift that Jesus speaks of, and the tribulation that comes with it, is the last and greatest...it is Christ coming in history to be a sacrifice for the elect, and that to all from every corner of the globe.

Eagles gathering at the corpse - the Romans used the eagle as their ensign. It was considered by the Romans to be connected with Jupiter. The corpse would be the death of the old economy of shadows now that the reality has come.
 
Bruce,

That was an excellent comment. As surprising as it may sound, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks! (heh, now you'll have to recheck your post ;) )


Rich, that's incredible. I've never seen that. Now I know how to watch and be ready.
 
Bruce,
...I couldn't have said it better myself.
Joe,

I'm sure you would have written: "...but the pure apocalyptic vision of certain Dispensationalists seems to me to be..."

That might have been an all-round improvement. Thanks for the compliment.

Blessings.
 
I'm sure there were many generations who thought the world couldn't get any worse and that Christ was going to return soon. You can't blame them! Think of the torture they endured. Think of the torture that other countries have been enduring for many, many years. A day in their life would lead anyone of us to think things couldn't get any worse, people couldn't show their depravity any more than what they are now doing, etc and that Christ must be on His way. Those persecuted brothers and sisters don't live according to what is happening to them. They of course agree that Christ could come back anytime, but they do not look at their environment to make that prediction. Only countries like America (and ESPECIALLY America who thinks they are the second Israel), think that Christ must be on His way because things look so bad for us. Do I think that there will be a heighten state of evil before Christ comes back? Not necessarily. Christ said that when He comes back it will be like in the days of Noah when they were marrying eating etc....which means normal activity and not activity above and beyond the evil activity that has its cycle of highs and lows on this earth. :2cents:
 
Do I think that there will be a heighten state of evil before Christ comes back? Not necessarily. Christ said that when He comes back it will be like in the days of Noah when they were marrying eating etc....which means normal activity and not activity above and beyond the evil activity that has its cycle of highs and lows on this earth. :2cents:

It was definitely a heightened state of evil. Just read Genesis 6. You have the world filled with violence from mighty men, believers marrying unbelievers, a world so evil God had to destroy it. :2cents:
 
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If the dispensaltionalists are so wrong, how is it that they were able to predict the reunification of Europe under the EU 50 years ago?

Many others predicted this, not just Dispensationalists. Economists, historians, socialogists etc. have been predicting this for years and people within Europe were actively working toward this for years. It was only a matter of time. I've been reading through a book a family member gave me called "Epicenter", just out of curiousity. The author claims he predicted the rise of Russia and Iran from Ezekial etc. but he fills the book with other kinds of research too. It seemed to me that Scripture wasn't even important to his predictions, only incidental, though he wouldn't agree with that assessment. And I think that is what happens too often with some of these Dispensationalists. They see the trends of the events occuring and try to find the eschatological verses that fit, and then construct an eschatology narrative, in order to justify the relevance and reliability of Scripture and their eschatological system. Most of them are at least claiming to write these books apologetically to prove to people that the Scriptures are true and that they need to repent and believe before it's too late. The problem is they keep getting things wrong and are giving us Bible-believing Christians a bad reputation because of it. Their false predictions can cast doubt upon the integrity of Scripture to those whom they seek to reach. That desire to save the lost is good, but rebuilding the temple, or the EU, or identifying the anti-Christ, is not the message Jesus told us to proclaim. We are no longer known for our godliness and compassion but for our irrational paranoia. Eschatology in Scripture is not given to us to predict detailed events but to encourage our fearless and faithful service to Christ now in adversity and fuel our hope for the future in the new heavens and new earth. :2cents:
 
Do I think that there will be a heighten state of evil before Christ comes back? Not necessarily. Christ said that when He comes back it will be like in the days of Noah when they were marrying eating etc....which means normal activity and not activity above and beyond the evil activity that has its cycle of highs and lows on this earth. :2cents:

It was definitely a heightened state of evil. Just read Genesis 6. You have the world filled with violence from mighty men, believers marrying unbelievers, a world so evil God had to destroy it. :2cents:

You misunderstand me. I didn't mean to say that those times were not evil...the flood is the evidence. What I'm saying is that evil won't be out of proportion to that of the times in Noah...so no heighten state of evil or in other words...no height of evil that mankind has never seen before....this height of evil happened when Jerusalem was destroyed. So there's your answer now that I think about it.... the height of evil was then. Not in the future. :wow:

Matthew 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."
 
When it comes to eschatology, I left the dispensational camp years ago, because I could find little support of that view in Scripture. I was, however, deeply indoctrinated into that line of thinking, and I can't help looking at what is going on in the world and wondering if maybe, at least to some point, the dispensationalists were right. And truthfully, no one that I have talked to in the theological cirlces (with the exception of the PB, and not much here from what I can tell), has anyone been able to help me look at the world scene and give me an explanation of world events from Scripture as nicely as the dispensationalists.

Before you all go nuts on me, please hear me out, I am not a dispensationalist. While I cannot go along with, seven years tribulation, church age, rapture ideas, etc. it is uncanny to me how the dispensationalists have been able (for decades) to predict what will happen on the world scene, and I wonder if there is any validity to their arguments.

Here are some of my questions. And even while I ask them, I realize that I shouldn't be trying to squish current events into Scripture.

Will there be ONE Antichrist (above all the hundreds who have shown up over the centuries) who rule the entire world? Is that taught in Scripture?

Will the USA fall into oblivian as the dispensationalists have predicted, because it is not mentioned in Scripture?

If the dispensaltionalists are so wrong, how is it that they were able to predict the reunification of Europe under the EU 50 years ago?

What do the Scriptures teach about the end of the last days before Christ's return? "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." comes to mind.

Does anyone out there have some answers? I really don't want to start a debate on viewpoints, but rather discuss the views and how they fit in with current events.

I am an optimistic amillennial believer, but many who I run with still believe in one personal Antichrist.

They state, logically, for this one personal Antichrist to be a big enough threat for Christ to destroy with his coming (II Thess 2), he needs to exercise some sort of power in the world, and he is that "little horn" spoken of in Revelation. A Global world helps such an Antichrist considerably.

Even in the midst of great optimism many believe that there will be a falling away near the end. Being Amil does not mean one cannot believe in a personal antichrist, even if that antichrist also possesses a title (like Pope).
 
Wow, thanks everyone for all the input. I have many thoughts and questions, but it will have to wait for this evening when I have more time. Please keep the comments coming. I am mulling them over as I do my housework today.
 
Christ will not return until the gospel has saved people from every tribe nation and tongue.

The key to understanding the Antichrist is understanding that he is not a OPEN opponent of Christ but a deceiver (anti can mean "in place of" in he greek not just "against").

In 2 Thes. 2 he is compared to Judas by being called "son of perdition". He takes his seat in the temple of God (the eventually to become apostate church) and claim's God's authority. Also...he was being restrained in Paul's day (therefore existent) and will not be destroyed until Christ's return. He certainly isn't a 2000 year old man, but a position filled by men when no longer restrained by the pagan Roman empire which will end when Jesus returns.

The WCF and LB 1689 both (along with all the reformers) have identified the Antichrist. I really advise you to look into what was known as the "protestant view" (historicism)
 
If they take our guns away, and I cannot bag a deer, turkey, pheasant, rabbit, duck, etc., unless I use a bow or Javelin, surely the end is near.:lol:

Sorry, I just spent the whole day in a hunter education course.

I struggle just like you, having grown up in Dispensational congregations, I too find myself reverting back to their teaching as I see things unfold. Yet, I know the Enemy wants us to be preoccupied with all the possibilities of the future, that could not possibly all come to pass, so as to divert us from godly living in the present. So, bear the present day's cross, not tomorrows, and trust that tribulations will come, with wars and rumors of wars and what not, yet, the Shepherd holds us all in His hand, Pre, A, and Post. But, the Dispensational hermeneutic is still wrong.
 
"bear the present day's cross, not tomorrows, and trust that tribulations will come, with wars and rumors of wars and what not, yet, the Shepherd holds us all in His hand"

May I quote you on this? I like it!
 
"bear the present day's cross, not tomorrows, and trust that tribulations will come, with wars and rumors of wars and what not, yet, the Shepherd holds us all in His hand"

May I quote you on this? I like it!
Actually, this is sort of a paraphrase/expansion on a thought presented in C.S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters" Chapter 6. Feel free to quote it as is or read chapter six and go from there. As we all know, no thought is an original thought, unless you are YHWH.
 
Again, thanks to everyone who has helped me sort through this. Our pastor is taking us through the book of Genesis. This morning he focused on Genesis 6:9-end of the chapter and on Ephesians 1:22-23.

Here is what I gleaned from his sermon:

1. God is sovereign in all things, even in the giving of the gifts of common grace to the lost. He uses even those gifts to bring about the good of His Church.

2. All that God does in this world, even the setting up and taking down of world powers is for the sake of His Church.

I find great comfort in that. While I look at world events which seem to be culminating in a one world government, Christ is the King and more than that, His interest is in His glory and the good of His Church. It gives perspective to the entire mess.

I tend to lean in the direction of those who believe that there will be one world antichrist who will try to usurp the authority of the True King, and that we are moving in quickly in that direction. Peter teaches us that Noah was a preacher of righteousness all of his days, and that tells me what we should be doing all of our days--being "preachers of righteousness" with our lives. It must have been quite lonely for Noah while he watched the world fall apart around him, yet his heart was where it should be.
 
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