Under- or over-supply of MDivs?

[Chris Scott]

What is the current consensus: Do we (in U.S. Reformed churches) currently see an under-supply or over-supply of MDivs seeking pulpits? Is the supply trending up or down? Is there a good source of data on these questions?

 

[LanceJ]

Under Supply. Both the URCNA and OPC have an almost historic number of pulpits vacant. And it seems to be trending downward. There are a number of factors being considered including the ease (or lack thereof) of obtaining an M. Div i.e. residency requirements and financial burdens.

This was a helpful of article that discussed some of these concerns: https://heidelblog.net/2025/03/pastoral-openings-in-the-urcna/

The Reformed Forum also recently had a podcast episode discussing this but I can't find it at the moment.

 

[Chris Scott]

Under Supply. Both the URCNA and OPC have an almost historic number of pulpits vacant. And it seems to be trending downward. There are a number of factors being considered including the ease (or lack thereof) of obtaining an M. Div i.e. residency requirements and financial burdens.

This was a helpful of article that discussed some of these concerns: https://heidelblog.net/2025/03/pastoral-openings-in-the-urcna/

The Reformed Forum also recently had a podcast episode discussing this but I can't find it at the moment.

Thank you! I just found the Reformed Forum podcast episode in case anyone else is interested: https://reformedforum.org/podcasts/rflive20250228/

 

[Edward]

In the PCA there are approximately 3.2 TEs per church. That doesn't strike me as an undersupply.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

In the PCA there are approximately 3.2 TEs per church. That doesn't strike me as an undersupply.

Yet there are churches without pastors (small ones that need tent makers; which we've discussed before elsewhere). It is a strange sorry situation to have an oversupply of pastors yet have churches without any pastors.

 

[LanceJ]

In the PCA there are approximately 3.2 TEs per church. That doesn't strike me as an undersupply.

As with many things, the PCA is often a different dynamic altogether. And there are reasons for that as well.

 

[Jake]

In the PCA there are approximately 3.2 TEs per church. That doesn't strike me as an undersupply.

Depends on how many are retired. I know there have been times in my own denomination we have had similar ratios (not sure of current statistics) because of aging ministers.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I know the CRCNA is significantly undersupplied and churches are being told to expect up to 3 years to fill an empty pulpit.

 

[dsanch1120]

I know the CRCNA is significantly undersupplied and churches are being told to expect up to 3 years to fill an empty pulpit.

That’s surprising to hear. Do they have ordination requirements that differ substantially from NAPARC congregations? I’m sure there’s other factors at play too

 

[Polanus1561]

Yet there are churches without pastors (small ones that need tent makers; which we've discussed before elsewhere). It is a strange sorry situation to have an oversupply of pastors yet have churches without any pastors.

Curious, does that assume you view that churches having 3 TE is an 'oversupply'? Can it not be seen as 3 TE is needful for that church's ministries and for a healthy congregation to TE ratio for that church?

 

[Cornelius Van Halen]

When I was in search of a call, I found that many small churches want a pastor with 5-10 years of experience. I remember being in a position where I was about to send my CV out to around 50 churches and had no expectation that any of them would call back. A friend of mine had similar struggles. He had 5 years of experience in a different denomination pre-seminary, graduated from WTS, faithfully served at the church he attended in Philly, did an internship at a flagship PCA church, was ordained as an assistant pastor, worked for that church for a year in a stop-gap role, and was turned down by quite a few small churches because of his lack of PCA experience.

Larger churches that have multiple pastors provide an opportunity for seminary graduates; it's easier for them to move into assistant or associate positions. Coming as the lone TE is difficult. Small churches should have high expectations for a pastor, but if you have a smaller congregation, I sometimes wonder how wise it is to demand a pastor with 5-10 years of experience. However, and again, this is only in my experience, those who care about small congregations are usually not men with 5-10 years in the PCA under their belt. So they become associates or assistants at bigger churches, and then gain connections that put them into medium-sized churches (or into church planting opportunities). The demand for this type of experience, in my estimation, can cause smaller churches to get "passed over".

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Curious, does that assume you view that churches having 3 TE is an 'oversupply'? Can it not be seen as 3 TE is needful for that church's ministries and for a healthy congregation to TE ratio for that church?

I'm going off Edward's average, which said nothing about churches having three TEs, and the state of things told by two elder PCA statesmen, one recently passed away, who came out to advise my church on our pastor search (Bebo Elkins and the late Wayne Herring (1946-March 2025). They had a lot of stories about smaller churches, which we are (while in the middle of Dallas, we are in many ways like a small rural church).

 

[Notthemama1984]

That’s surprising to hear. Do they have ordination requirements that differ substantially from NAPARC congregations? I’m sure there’s other factors at play too

You must have an MDiv from Calvin or you must enroll in what they call an EPMC program where you will be required to take a minimum of 9 hours at Calvin as well as a 2 year mentorship before you can be fully ordained as a minister of the Word.

There are a few other hoops that make it more difficult. So that coupled with the health of the CRCNA leads to their shortfall.

 

[SolaScriptura]

In the PCA there are approximately 3.2 TEs per church. That doesn't strike me as an undersupply.

Large numbers of those TEs are (1) retired or without call, (2) called to some aspect of ministry other than working in a church... thus it isn't exactly accurate to look at raw numbers of TEs.

 

[ZackF]

Large numbers of those TEs are (1) retired or without call, (2) called to some aspect of ministry other than working in a church... thus it isn't exactly accurate to look at raw numbers of TEs.

I was wondering how that data is compiled. Are there churches with 10 or 12 TEs that are skewing the average up to three when there are large numbers of churches without a pastor?

 

[SolaScriptura]

I was wondering how that data is compiled. Are there churches with 10 or 12 TEs that are skewing the average up to three when there are large numbers of churches without a pastor?

Well, including the 2 emeritus pastors, I count 9 or 10 TEs on staff at Park Cities Presbyterian (and if any of their many “directors” are TEs then that increases the number).

In the case of Briarwood, I count 16 men with the word “pastor” in their title.

Now, most churches are NOT Briarwood or Park Cities… but there are plenty of multi-pastoral staff churches.

 

[ZackF]

So the number is obtained by taking the total number of TEs divided by the number of churches there are.

 

[Edward]

Well, including the 2 emeritus pastors, I count 9 or 10 TEs on staff at Park Cities Presbyterian

Senior pastor, one associate, five assistants, two emeritus and one vacancy. I don't think any of the directors are ordained in the PCA but I haven't verified that. High point was 13 ordained pastors some years ago. In any event your count is about right.

Over 100 deacons.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Senior pastor, one associate, five assistants, two emeritus and one vacancy. I don't think any of the directors are ordained in the PCA but I haven't verified that. High point was 13 ordained pastors some years ago. In any event your count is about right.

Over 100 deacons.

Over 100! Wow! How do meetings work?

 

[Edward]

Over 100! Wow! How do meetings work?

The Presbyterian way, of course. Committees do the work, the larger body hears reports and asks questions. There's only been one hotly contested item in the last year or two. I offered a compromise motion because I wanted to go home with most of the issue deferred to the next month; by the next month the issue was no longer an issue.

I hope I'm not shocking too many people here by having smoothed something out rather than stirring it up.