Unsaving Faith

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NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Now posted on my PB blog:
James Durham on Unsaving Faith. [blogs are now defunct after upgrades, see my Facebook page.]
...​
[FONT=&quot][1] The first is historical faith; which may be called true, being it whereby we assent to the truth of a thing, because of his supposed fidelity that tells it; as when an author writes a history, we give it credit upon report that he was an honest man that wrote it. So historical faith is when people hearing the Word preached or read, they assent to the truth of it all. [/FONT]​
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Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Now posted on my PB blog:
James Durham on Unsaving Faith.
...
[FONT=&quot][1] The first is historical faith; which may be called true, being it whereby we assent to the truth of a thing, because of his supposed fidelity that tells it; as when an author writes a history, we give it credit upon report that he was an honest man that wrote it. So historical faith is when people hearing the Word preached or read, they assent to the truth of it all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]

Would this unsaving faith be akin to a dead orthodoxy?
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe; that term is subject to definition, and I know some don't like the phrase at all. It wasn't used in Durham's time far as I know.
 

AV1611

Puritan Board Senior
Gill:

There is what is called an historical faith, not because it is only giving credit to the historical part of the scripture, which is to be believed as well as other parts; nor because the scripture is read, and attention paid to it only as a common history or human testimony; for men, with this faith, believe it to be a divine testimony, and regard it as such; it may rather be called a theoretic faith, a speculative one, receiving all things in the theory but reducing nothing to practice; or a bare naked assent to the truth of what is contained in the word concerning God and Christ, and divine things; it is a faith common to good men and bad men; it must be and is where true faith is, and there can be no true faith without it; but if a man stops here and goes no further, it falls short of spiritual, special faith, or the faith of God’s elect, and is no other than the faith of devils, and of bad men.

6. Of Faith in god.

For me it has been the cause of a lot of self-examination looking for the marks of grace.
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
Now posted on my PB blog:
James Durham on Unsaving Faith.
...
[FONT=&quot][1] The first is historical faith; which may be called true, being it whereby we assent to the truth of a thing, because of his supposed fidelity that tells it; as when an author writes a history, we give it credit upon report that he was an honest man that wrote it. So historical faith is when people hearing the Word preached or read, they assent to the truth of it all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]

His "historical faith" is saving faith - assent to the truth of it all. It is impossible to believe it all and not be saved, for only the regenerate elect can believe the Gospel, much more "the truth of it all".
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
No its not; its the devils' faith, just as he says.

:)

1) Could a demon even have saving faith? Doesn't being a demon disqualify it from salvation?
2) Did the demon believe the gospel? Wasn't the demon's belief limited to believing there is only one God - even as the Muslims believe.
3) Can anyone (human) believe the gospel if they are not regenerate?
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Now posted on my PB blog:
James Durham on Unsaving Faith.
...
[FONT=&quot][1] The first is historical faith; which may be called true, being it whereby we assent to the truth of a thing, because of his supposed fidelity that tells it; as when an author writes a history, we give it credit upon report that he was an honest man that wrote it. So historical faith is when people hearing the Word preached or read, they assent to the truth of it all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]

His "historical faith" is saving faith - assent to the truth of it all. It is impossible to believe it all and not be saved, for only the regenerate elect can believe the Gospel, much more "the truth of it all".

Clarkian? Yes.
Confessional? No.
Reformed? No.
Biblical? No.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
More specifically:

Heidelberg Catechism

Question 21. What is true faith?

Answer: True faith is not only a certain knowledge, whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in his word, (a) but also an assured confidence, (b) which the Holy Ghost (c) works by the gospel in my heart; (d) that not only to others, but to me also, remission of sin, everlasting righteousness and salvation, (e) are freely given by God, merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits. (f)

(a) James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (b) 2 Cor.4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Eph.2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph.2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph.3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Gal.2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Heb.11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb.11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Heb.11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Heb.11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: Heb.11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Heb.4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. Matt.16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Philip.1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, Rom.4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Rom.4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. Rom.5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom.10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom.4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Rom.4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. Rom.4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: Rom.4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Rom.3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom.3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (c) Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Matt.16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 2 Cor.4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Philip.1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (d) Rom.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 1 Cor.1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (e) Rom.1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Gal.3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Heb.10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb.10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Gal.2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (f) Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Rom.3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom.5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Luke 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XIV
Of Saving Faith

I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,1 is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,2 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word,3 by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.4

II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein;5 and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,6trembling at the threatenings,7 and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.8 But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.9

III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong;10 may be often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory:11 growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ,12 who is both the author and finisher of our faith.13

1 1CO 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. ACT 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. PHI 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2 JOH 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. EPH 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. 2TH 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

1 HEB 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

2 2CO 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak. EPH 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

3 ROM 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

4 1PE 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby. ACT 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. LUK 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. ROM 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

5 JOH 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. 1TH 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 1JO 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. ACT 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets.

6 ROM 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.

7 ISA 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

8 HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 1TI 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

9 JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. ACT 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. GAL 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ACT 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

10 HEB 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. ROM 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God. MAT 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? MAT 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 LUK 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. EPH 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 1JO 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

12 HEB 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. HEB 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. COL 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ.

13 HEB 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 72. What is justifying faith?
A. Justifying faith is a saving grace,297 wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit298 and Word of God,299 whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition,300 not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel,301 but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin,302 and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.303


297 Hebrews 10:39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

298 2 Corinthians 4:13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak. Ephesians 1:17-19. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.

299 Romans 10:14-17. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

300 Acts 2:37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 16:30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? John 16:8-9. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me. Romans 6:6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Ephesians 2:1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. Acts 4:12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

301 Ephesians 1:13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

302 John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Acts 16:31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 10:43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

303 Philippians 3:9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Acts 15:11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
 

Herald

Administrator
Staff member
Gill:

There is what is called an historical faith, not because it is only giving credit to the historical part of the scripture, which is to be believed as well as other parts; nor because the scripture is read, and attention paid to it only as a common history or human testimony; for men, with this faith, believe it to be a divine testimony, and regard it as such; it may rather be called a theoretic faith, a speculative one, receiving all things in the theory but reducing nothing to practice; or a bare naked assent to the truth of what is contained in the word concerning God and Christ, and divine things; it is a faith common to good men and bad men; it must be and is where true faith is, and there can be no true faith without it; but if a man stops here and goes no further, it falls short of spiritual, special faith, or the faith of God’s elect, and is no other than the faith of devils, and of bad men.

6. Of Faith in god.

For me it has been the cause of a lot of self-examination looking for the marks of grace.

Richard - quite correct. Saving faith will display the evidences of grace in the life of the one who exercises said faith. The faith that does not save (temporal faith) is devoid of these evidences.
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
Now posted on my PB blog:
James Durham on Unsaving Faith.
...
[FONT=&quot][1] The first is historical faith; which may be called true, being it whereby we assent to the truth of a thing, because of his supposed fidelity that tells it; as when an author writes a history, we give it credit upon report that he was an honest man that wrote it. So historical faith is when people hearing the Word preached or read, they assent to the truth of it all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]

His "historical faith" is saving faith - assent to the truth of it all. It is impossible to believe it all and not be saved, for only the regenerate elect can believe the Gospel, much more "the truth of it all".

Clarkian? Yes.
Confessional? No.
Reformed? No.
Biblical? No.

Ironically:

Clarkian? Yes.
Confessional? Yes.
Reformed? You bet.
Biblical? Absolutely!

And even:
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XIV
Of Saving Faith

I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,1 is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,2 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word,3 by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.4

II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein;5 and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,6trembling at the threatenings,7 and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.8 But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.9

III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong;10 may be often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory:11 growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ,12 who is both the author and finisher of our faith.13

1 1CO 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. ACT 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. PHI 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2 JOH 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. EPH 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. 2TH 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

1 HEB 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

2 2CO 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak. EPH 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

3 ROM 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

4 1PE 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby. ACT 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. LUK 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. ROM 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

5 JOH 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. 1TH 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 1JO 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. ACT 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets.

6 ROM 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.

7 ISA 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

8 HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 1TI 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

9 JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. ACT 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. GAL 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ACT 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

10 HEB 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. ROM 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God. MAT 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? MAT 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 LUK 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. EPH 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 1JO 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

12 HEB 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. HEB 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. COL 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ.

13 HEB 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 72. What is justifying faith?
A. Justifying faith is a saving grace,297 wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit298 and Word of God,299 whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition,300 not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel,301 but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin,302 and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.303


297 Hebrews 10:39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

298 2 Corinthians 4:13. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak. Ephesians 1:17-19. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.

299 Romans 10:14-17. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

300 Acts 2:37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 16:30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? John 16:8-9. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me. Romans 6:6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Ephesians 2:1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. Acts 4:12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

301 Ephesians 1:13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

302 John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Acts 16:31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 10:43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

303 Philippians 3:9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Acts 15:11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
His "historical faith" is saving faith - assent to the truth of it all. It is impossible to believe it all and not be saved, for only the regenerate elect can believe the Gospel, much more "the truth of it all".

Clarkian? Yes.
Confessional? No.
Reformed? No.
Biblical? No.

Ironically:

Clarkian? Yes.
Confessional? Yes.
Reformed? You bet.
Biblical? Absolutely!
Only when words cease to have meaning will that be the case. It is well known that the Reformed formulation, clearly articulated in the Confessions includes three and not two aspects of saving faith. That the Clarkians conflate fiducia with assensus is un-Confessional and not Reformed. Full stop.
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
Perhaps you could point out the contradiction(s). I see none.

I withdraw that point. Reading them over a few times, I resolved it (using my mere human capacity for reasoning ;) ). More relevant is that there is no contradiction between what I said and the what the WCF says.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Perhaps you could point out the contradiction(s). I see none.

I withdraw that point. Reading them over a few times, I resolved it (using my mere human capacity for reasoning ;) ). More relevant is that there is no contradiction between what I said and the what the WCF says.

There is Anthony. You are claiming that saving faith consists merely in notitia assensus. It is fanciful to claim that the WCF agrees with you. You know very well that Clark disagrees with the Reformed understanding that Justifying (or True) Faith includes a personal component of trust.

Fascinating, is it not, that you are disagreeing with Durham on the nature of faith when his view is reflective of the formulation? You disagree with Durham -> you disagree with the WCF.

Now, you may actually believe, because Dr. Clark asserted the case, that yours is what the WCF really says and that, by disagreeing with Durham you are agreeing with the WCF but that would only demonstrate that you are ignorant of the facts on this case.

You will have to do more that assert that your view is Confessional in this case, you will have to demonstrate that the WCF Divines or any Magesterial Reformer defined faith in the manner of the Clarkian. Have at that, but not on this thread. If you would like, we can open up another thread in the Confessions so you can have those that understand the Puritans post some quotatations from the Divines and the Reformers. The last time this exercise was played out concerning what "light of nature" meant, it was demonstrated that the Clarkian view was not the Confessional view.

Hereafter, however, unless you are willing to back up your assertion that Durham is un-Confessional in his view of faith then you will need to cease the bare assertion in this thread and take that subject up in another. :judge:
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
Clarkian? Yes.
Confessional? No.
Reformed? No.
Biblical? No.

Ironically:

Clarkian? Yes.
Confessional? Yes.
Reformed? You bet.
Biblical? Absolutely!
Only when words cease to have meaning will that be the case. It is well known that the Reformed formulation, clearly articulated in the Confessions includes three and not two aspects of saving faith. That the Clarkians conflate fiducia with assensus is un-Confessional and not Reformed. Full stop.

Ha! Nice try.

Yes, some reformers held the artificial division of faith into three elements. But this was also used to help people understand faith, not to give a necessary definition. Unless you want to label several other reformers as un-biblical too. :)

Clark did not conflate fiducia and assensus. He showed that assensus implies fiducia. Basically, the tri-part division of faith is unnecessarily redundant.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Ha! Nice try.

Yes, some reformers held the artificial division of faith into three elements. But this was also used to help people understand faith, not to give a necessary definition. Unless you want to label several other reformers as un-biblical too. :)

Clark did not conflate fiducia and assensus. He showed that assensus implies fiducia. Basically, the tri-part division of faith is unnecessarily redundant.

No attempts here Anthony. Clark did no such thing. Clark is not the Church. He is not a council. He does not settle matters of controversy.

As I stated, this conflation is un-Confessional. You may take this up on the Confessions forum and try to build the case that the Confessions taught Clark's view but the discussion that Durham is un-Confessional and Clark is Confessional on this point ends here in this thread.
 

Poimen

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
What Durham expresses is standard Reformed theology. Calvin notes:

“For though only those predestined to salvation receive the light of faith and truly feel the power of the gospel, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected by almost the same feeling as the elect, so that even in their own judgment they do not in any way differ from the elect [cf. Acts 13:48]. Therefore it is not at all absurd that the apostle should attribute to them a taste of the heavenly gifts [Hebrews 6:4-6] — and Christ, faith for a time [Luke 8:13]; not because they firmly grasp the force of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith, but because the Lord, to render them more convicted and inexcusable, steals into their minds to the extent that his goodness may be tasted without the Spirit of adoption… But this does not at all hinder that lower working of the Spirit from taking its course even in the reprobate. In the meantime, believers are taught to examine themselves carefully and humbly, lest the confidence of the flesh creep in and replace assurance of faith. Besides this, the reprobate never receive anything but a confused awareness of grace, so that they grasp a shadow rather than the firm body of it. For the Spirit, strictly speaking, seals forgiveness of sins in the elect alone, so that they apply it by special faith to their own use. Yet the reprobate are justly said to believe that God is merciful toward them, for they receive the gift of reconciliation, although confusedly and not distinctly enough. Not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God, but because they seem, under a cloak of hypocrisy, to have a beginning of faith in common with the latter. And I do not deny that God illumines their minds enough for them to recognize his grace; but he so distinguishes that awareness from the exclusive testimony he gives to his elect that they do not attain the full effect and fruition thereof. He does not show himself merciful to them, to the extent of truly snatching them from death and receiving them into his keeping, but only manifests to them his mercy for the time being. Only his elect does he account worthy of receiving the living root of faith so that they may endure to the end [Matthew 24:13]. Thus is that objection answered: if God truly shows his grace, this fact is forever established. For nothing prevents God from illumining some with a momentary awareness of his grace, which afterward vanishes.”

-Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 2.11 (“Faith” even among the reprobate)

Anthony you never answered the biblical evidence compiled here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/249547-post8.html
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
You will have to do more that assert that your view is Confessional in this case, you will have to demonstrate that the WCF Divines or any Magesterial Reformer defined faith in the manner of the Clarkian. Have at that, but not on this thread. If you would like, we can open up another thread in the Confessions so you can have those that understand the Puritans post some quotatations from the Divines and the Reformers. The last time this exercise was played out concerning what "light of nature" meant, it was demonstrated that the Clarkian view was not the Confessional view.

Hereafter, however, unless you are willing to back up your assertion that Durham is un-Confessional in his view of faith then you will need to cease the bare assertion in this thread and take that subject up in another. :judge:


I suggest then you go back to your bare assertions that my post was un-biblical and un-cofessional that started this exchange and delete it and the exchange that followed. You can then address specifically what I wrote, and the questions I asked, instead of taking shots.

Fair enough?
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
You will have to do more that assert that your view is Confessional in this case, you will have to demonstrate that the WCF Divines or any Magesterial Reformer defined faith in the manner of the Clarkian. Have at that, but not on this thread. If you would like, we can open up another thread in the Confessions so you can have those that understand the Puritans post some quotatations from the Divines and the Reformers. The last time this exercise was played out concerning what "light of nature" meant, it was demonstrated that the Clarkian view was not the Confessional view.

Hereafter, however, unless you are willing to back up your assertion that Durham is un-Confessional in his view of faith then you will need to cease the bare assertion in this thread and take that subject up in another. :judge:


I suggest then you go back to your bare assertions that my post was un-biblical and un-cofessional that started this exchange and delete it and the exchange that followed. You can then address specifically what I wrote, and the questions I asked, instead of taking shots.

Fair enough?

1. This was a thread about Durham.
2. Durham was a Puritan.
3. Expressing the Puritan view of faith.
4. Which the WCF reflects.
5. Which the Reformed Confessions reflect.
6. You say: "No, Durham is wrong about faith."

I made no "bare assertions". I followed my charge directly with the Confessional data and the prooftexts to demonstrate precisely what I was stating. I also did not assert "in a vacuum" and knew, the moment that Chris posted the thread, that a Clarkian would likely come in a "correct" a Puritan luminary on his understanding of faith.

As I stated, if you want to continue in your assertion that Durham is wrong concerning the nature of faith then it's on the basis of the Confession and you will need to establish that in another thread. You claim that there are Reformers and that this tri-partite definition of faith was merely a helpful way that "some" Reformed used. Let's see it - in another thread.
 

Iconoclast

Puritan Board Junior
No its not; its the devils' faith, just as he says.

:)

1) Could a demon even have saving faith? Doesn't being a demon disqualify it from salvation?
2) Did the demon believe the gospel? Wasn't the demon's belief limited to believing there is only one God - even as the Muslims believe.
3) Can anyone (human) believe the gospel if they are not regenerate?

In reference to the faith of demons,devils,fallen angels;

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The atonement was only for the seed of Abraham, there is no redemption for angels who sinned.
 

cih1355

Puritan Board Junior
A person can affirm that all of the propositions in the Bible are true without depending or relying upon Jesus for salvation.
 

Civbert

Puritan Board Junior
Maybe; that term is subject to definition, and I know some don't like the phrase at all. It wasn't used in Durham's time far as I know.

You are referring to "unsaving faith"? It doesn't seem to have caught on does it. But I can see why. It appears to me that he is saying that one can truly believe all that is necessary for salvation - and yet be lost. Yet we are told that all that is necessary for salvation is faith. Unsaving faith seems to imply that faith is insufficient for salvation.
 
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