Wearing a Collar

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I am less than a year away from my first Pastorate (knock on wood) and have a question for the Puritan Board Reverand's (and others).

Wondering what the general consensus and arguments pro/con concerning donning a collar as a Teaching Elder are and also how many of you wear a Geneva Gown on a regular basis?

Thanks.

 

[Davidius]

http://www.puritanboard.com/f67/gown-wear-not-wear-21881/

 

[JBaldwin]

From the perspective of one sitting in the pews, I don't mind if a pastor wears a robe to preach, but I am definitely against the collar. It too quickly makes me think Roman Catholic. No minister around here wears the collar unless he are catholic. In other places I've been, I've seen Lutherans wear them, but never presbyterians.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

 

[TimV]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

The second is a better argument than the first, but I thank you for that insight.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

The second is a better argument than the first, but I thank you for that insight.

Thanks, the second argument explains the rationale behind the first a bit.

 

[Stephen]

I wear a collar when making hospital calls and on other occassions. There are several reasons why I do: 1. It identifes my office and people generally recognize it. Many people will often strike up conversation when they see me, which can turn to spiritual matters. 2. It sets me apart from the "business man" in his suit. 3. It is a reminder to me of what I have been called to do. The collar is the sign of a slave. In slavery times the slave would wear a collar with a chain as a reminder that he belonged to someone. As a minister I am a slave of Jesus Christ and a servant to people.
I also wear a robe or teaching gown to set me apart in worship as a representative of Christ. People are not looking at a man in a business suit or casual attire, but a representative of Christ, who comes to lead them before the presence of God. In worship we move from the common and mundane world to a world that is extraordinary. Calvin wore a teaching gown and some of the puritans would have worn some simple kind of dress. I certainly would not advocate much of the romish garb, but a simple dress for the minister is appropriate. I am a former Roman Catholic and would not reject dress based on the fact that Roman priests wear them. We do many things that Roman Catholics do, but we cannot throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[KenPierce]

If you wear a collar, wear a PRotestant (Anglican) one, not a Catholic one, which is what most high-church Presbyterians normally do.

Frankly, I'm agin' em.

But, I am in favor of the Geneva (teacher's) gown --Read Lloyd-Jones to see why!

HOw interesting that the Puritans obviously didn't think them against the RPW. The authors of the RPW saw no contradiction.

Like the model T --any color as long as it's black.

 

[ChristopherPaul]

(knock on wood)

Really? I prefer the phrase "Lord Willing."

Personally I like the idea of the collar and Geneva gown. I understand the Roman Catholics have monopolized the statement the collar gives to day, but I like that it identifies a minister of God in all settings. It was not always a Papist thing, but today the mass impression is certainly Roman.

There are many Presbyterian ministers who wear the Geneva gown. From what I have seen they have all been very plain (the popular Machen Robe is as elaborate as I have seen and that in itself is quite plain).

 

[Stephen]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

Having lived in Scotland it is rare to see even a Protestant minister not wearing a collar. Ian Paisley, who is much more fundamentalist has worn a collar, as well as his son, Kyle. I understand your objection based on the regulative principal, but if you carry that argument out, you would not be able to worship in a building that has the astectics of a church building or other things that you may do as a church.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

Having lived in Scotland it is rare to see even a Protestant minister not wearing a collar. Ian Paisley, who is much more fundamentalist has worn a collar, as well as his son, Kyle. I understand your objection based on the regulative principal, but if you carry that argument out, you would not be able to worship in a building that has the astectics of a church building or other things that you may do as a church.

One Scottish denomination actually force their ministers to wear collars, not only in public worship, but every time they are seen out in public.

The issue of church buildings, in my opinion, comes under circumstances of worship, and we worship in a meeting house as it is most convenient. However, in relation to distinct garments for ministers, I think you have to find Biblical warrant for a minister to dress in a distinctive manner. I have yet to see any Scriptural justification for the practice. Moreover, I think one of the church fathers said that gospel ministers were to be distinguished by their doctrines rather than their clothes. Though I do understand the argument that if a minister dresses distinctly then he is more likely to be noticed.

 

[Stephen]

If you wear a collar, wear a PRotestant (Anglican) one, not a Catholic one, which is what most high-church Presbyterians normally do.

Frankly, I'm agin' em.

But, I am in favor of the Geneva (teacher's) gown --Read Lloyd-Jones to see why!

HOw interesting that the Puritans obviously didn't think them against the RPW. The authors of the RPW saw no contradiction.

Like the model T --any color as long as it's black.

Yes, I do wear the more traditional collar, which separates me from a papist priest, but I see no issue with wearing them. I think it is related to this entire cultural norm of not wanting distinctives. The church in its approach to worship is becoming more like culture, where the minister dresses however he chooses and the people come to worship the living God, dressed like they are going to a sporting event. If you were invitied to visit Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth, there would be a certain way you would dress, and it would not be casual. We should approach the living God in the same way, never casual or alloff.

 

[ChristopherPaul]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

The second is a better argument than the first, but I thank you for that insight.

Especially considering that the office of Deacon Represents Christ as Priest while the Ruling Elder represents Christ in the office of King and the Teaching Elder in the Office of Prophet.

 

[KenPierce]

Make it clear: I don't have any Biblical objection, it is more a ministry philosophy one --it must be wholly adiaphoral. The apostles certainly didn't' wear them, nowhere commanded, therefore indifferent.

 

[Gage Browning]

From the perspective of one sitting in the pews, I don't mind if a pastor wears a robe to preach, but I am definitely against the collar. It too quickly makes me think Roman Catholic. No minister around here wears the collar unless he are catholic. In other places I've been, I've seen Lutherans wear them, but never presbyterians.

Having visited Auburn Avenue Presbyterian- I have seen Steve Wilkins and his Assoc Pastor, they both wear collars.

 

[KenPierce]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

Having lived in Scotland it is rare to see even a Protestant minister not wearing a collar. Ian Paisley, who is much more fundamentalist has worn a collar, as well as his son, Kyle. I understand your objection based on the regulative principal, but if you carry that argument out, you would not be able to worship in a building that has the astectics of a church building or other things that you may do as a church.

One Scottish denomination actually force their ministers to wear collars, not only in public worship, but every time they are seen out in public.

The issue of church buildings, in my opinion, comes under circumstances of worship, and we worship in a meeting house as it is most convenient. However, in relation to distinct garments for ministers, I think you have to find Biblical warrant for a minister to dress in a distinctive manner. I have yet to see any Scriptural justification for the practice. Moreover, I think one of the church fathers said that gospel ministers were to be distinguished by their doctrines rather than their clothes. Though I do understand the argument that if a minister dresses distinctly then he is more likely to be noticed.

What about the Reformed paraphernalia: are there prominent pulpits in the New Testament, ornate communion service ware, pews, steeples? The truth is, nothing can be wholly circumstantial, and everything has a function. The function of the robe, according to DMLJ, is to set the minister apart for his function of prophetic work, which is distinct from him as a man.

 

[Zenas]

Distinct ecclesiastical garments are a breach of the regulative principle.

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

I want a cool robe.

 

[Zenas]

My teaching elder wears a Geneva gown.

 

[Davidius]

There are many Presbyterian ministers who wear the Geneva gown. From what I have seen they have all been very plain (the popular Machen Robe is as elaborate as I have seen and that in itself is quite plain).

Is that an ecclesiastical robe? Graduate students normal wear a robe with some kind of sash like that at graduation, so I always assumed that that's what Machen had on, since he was a professor at Princeton and WTS.

 

[ChristopherPaul]

There are many Presbyterian ministers who wear the Geneva gown. From what I have seen they have all been very plain (the popular Machen Robe is as elaborate as I have seen and that in itself is quite plain).

Is that an ecclesiastical robe? Graduate students normal wear a robe with some kind of sash like that at graduation, so I always assumed that that's what Machen had on, since he was a professor at Princeton and WTS.

It may be; however, while I was a member at Princeton Presbyterian my senior pastor's geneva gown looked exactly like Machens. RC Sproul also has a Machen-esque painted portrait of himself wearing the same robe, but I have never seen him wear it to preach.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I, contra to my Brother Ritchie, would consider distinctive dress of the minister to be a circumstance of worship, and not an element. The Scriptures do not command what a minister should wear, thus should any clothing be forbidden? But, as always, I am open to being told and persuaded differently, the peon that I am when it comes to doctrine and practice.

Would you be happy if your minister turned up in a Haiwian shirt?

Seriously though, my argument would just be that ministers should not have distinctive dress, but it is only a very small point.

I agree that what a minister wears is only a circumstance, but would be of the opinion that when you have distinct forms of clerical dress then it is no longer a circumstance (hope this makes some sense).

 

[N. Eshelman]

What does the TRADITIONAL collar versus the ROMAN CATHOLIC difference look like? I am unsure.

If the collar represents the slave, then why not use a biblical illustration like a ring through the ear?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Traditional/Anglican

Roman

 

[BJClark]

D. James Kennedy wore robes when he preached and for pictures on his book covers

http://www.coralridge.org/about_djk.htm

 

[brymaes]

I am ordained, but not serving in the pastoral office at this time. If the Lord should place me in such office again, I will wear a collar when ministering in the community.

BTW, even the Romanists in my area have stopped wearing distinctive dress.

 

[BobVigneault]

I have a very high esteem for the office of pastor so I prefer the pulpit and even a raised pulpit BUT, the collar and the robe I find very pretentious. I don't like them. That is just my opinion. Then again, I can't stand American Idol and I seem to be out of step in that regard as well.

Now if someone goes on American Idol wearing a collar... I'll probably have to go get some rest in the nervous hospital again.

 

[toddpedlar]

I have a very high esteem for the office of pastor so I prefer the pulpit and even a raised pulpit BUT, the collar and the robe I find very pretentious. I don't like them. That is just my opinion. Then again, I can't stand American Idol and I seem to be out of step in that regard as well.

Now if someone goes on American Idol wearing a collar... I'll probably have to go get some rest in the nervous hospital again.

Maybe if that person wearing a collar (make it a woman) sang "Shine, Jesus, Shine" she could win it all?

 

[toddpedlar]

There are many Presbyterian ministers who wear the Geneva gown. From what I have seen they have all been very plain (the popular Machen Robe is as elaborate as I have seen and that in itself is quite plain).

Is that an ecclesiastical robe? Graduate students normal wear a robe with some kind of sash like that at graduation, so I always assumed that that's what Machen had on, since he was a professor at Princeton and WTS.

My guess is that's his doctoral robe - 3 stripes on the sleeve and the hood. I've got one too, and we all wear them at commencement. Some are black, but some schools have particular colors that represent the school from which ones PhD was obtained more distinctly.

Now I think at Princeton University it USED to be that professors taught in those robes for all classes. Don't know how far back that goes, but I think it probably was in vogue in the 20's

 

[Archlute]

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

Because some of us still think that setting apart the preaching and teaching office in the classical Protestant manner of the "three-office" distinction continues to have an important place in the life of the Church

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

If we are going to have special clothes for ministers, then why not for the elders and deacons as well?

Because some of us still think that setting apart the preaching and teaching office in the classical Protestant manner of the "three-office" distinction continues to have an important place in the life of the Church

That does not answer the question; why not give other church officers holy clothes?