Wes White Has More Info on Ron Choong and Theistic Evolution in Metro NY and Redeemer

Discussion in 'Natural Revelation and God's Creation' started by bouletheou, Sep 1, 2010.

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  1. bouletheou

    bouletheou Puritan Board Freshman

    New info which is building on the information given in the previous post here:

    Johannes Weslianus: MNY Presbytery Missionary Ron Choong on Why the WCF's View of Adam Must be Revised

    TE White has followed up on his post on Ron Choong, an MNY Presbytery missonary sponsored by Reddeemer NYC.

    Daniel Mann, a Bible teacher in NY, has written a response to Choong's view:

    "In February 2010, my wife and attended a Ron Choong (Academy for Christian Thought) seminar at Redeemer Presbyterian Church, NYC, on the doctrine of humanity. Choong concluded, 'Adam and Eve were probably collective names describing a community of hominids [pre-humans] selected by God for
    moral cognition.' As innocuous to the Christian faith as this statement might sound, it contradicts NT teaching and consequently, the credibility of the entire Bible."

    You can read the rest here:

    Johannes Weslianus: Helpful Response to Ron Choong by Bible Teacher Daniel Mann

    Choong has also responded to Mann. He writes:

    "If by copying Tim Keller and Terry Gyger, you hope to draw their attention to my views, I can save you a lot of trouble. All my views about Adam and Eve have been published for more than 10 years and Redeemer as a church as well as Dr Keller as a minister have never had any objections to my non-
    doctrinal interpretations.
    This means that while I hold to a certain view of who Adam might mean, no church doctrine in the history of the church has ever made this a litmus test of faith."

    Johannes Weslianus: Ron Choong's Reply to Daniel Mann's Criticism of Choong's Theistic Evolution
  2. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Well, there ya go. I guess one pre human killed another after they were born from pre humans. This is a debacle. Or the first pre human brought forth the first man child. This is so messed up on so many different levels that one doesn't know where to begin. And this guy is a Confessional Presbyterian and His Elders allow him to teach? Like I said. This is a debacle.
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Puritan Board Doctor

    Adam nursing on the paps of an ape may work for Mr. Choong, but it is contrary to the Word of God, so he may with my permission take the proverbial leap.
  4. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    But just think: it solves the most difficult and vitally pressing doctrinal question the church has ever faced: where did Cain get his wife?
  5. EverReforming

    EverReforming Puritan Board Freshman

    Internet dating sites, obviously! ;)
  6. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    I can see the ad now: "Wanted: one unsmiling hominid willing to live in a developing urban environment."
  7. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    The whole thing's a sick joke.
  8. toddpedlar

    toddpedlar Iron Dramatist

    Sick, yes... unfortunately Dr. Choong is very serious about his views, rather dismissive and arrogant, if you ask me, concerning objections to his views, and worthy of charges. (not that I have much hope of charges being filed and seriously dealt with in Metro NYC Presbytery)

    What is most disturbing is the question of how widespread among REs and TEs in the PCA his views are. I really haven't a handle on it (and tend to be fairly optimistic that he's anomalous) but it is something that troubles me deeply.
  9. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Graduate

    If the biblical account of what we call the fall can be understood as ‘rising beasts’, ‘falling upwards’ to moral awareness, it would make better sense of biological evolution, theodicy and the human condition.

    I am simply stunned.

    Even guys like BB Warfield believed that at some point God breathed a human soul into a primate who truly became the first Adam, who truly fell. Downwards, not upwards.
  10. jayce475

    jayce475 Puritan Board Freshman

    "To cite 'biblical evidence' is naive. The Bible does not offer evidence. It offers trustworthy 'accounts' by those who believe and should not be degenerated to become 'evidence. This cheapens the high view of scriptures that we ought to hold. Ironically, to make the bible proof of God is to reduce its status to that of mere historical or scientific values. "

    What?! This makes no sense.
  11. Wes White

    Wes White Puritan Board Freshman

    I'm not sure if it's clear, but there is one more post available. Mann also responded to just the point that you were bringing up, Jason.

    You can read it here:

    Johannes Weslianus: Daniel Mann's Response to Ron Choong

    So, there are three posts. The first is Mann's response to having attended the lecture at Redeemer. The second is Choong's response to Mann. The third (linked in this reply) is Mann's response to Choong.
  12. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    This guy is poison.
  13. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Graduate

    Before that letter I was unclear if he believed in the historicity of Adam and assumed he did. Now it's clear that he doesn't.

    According to the Aquila Report, Choong was unaware that his views were out of bounds in the PCA. In that article the author claims, "The SJC said, and the GA confirmed, that not only can you not be a Teaching Elder, or a Ruling Elder if you hold to any form of Theistic Evolution. You can’t even be a deacon. And wait, I’m not done yet. The SJC found that one was not even allowed to teach Sunday School or small group Bible studies if the teacher held to and form of Theistic Evolution."
  14. sastark

    sastark Puritan Board Graduate

    Wes or any other knowledgeable PCA person: TE Choong is described as a "a missionary of the MNY Presbytery" in this post. How does one become a missionary in the PCA? Is it a presbytery level decision or do you have to go through an agency of the General Assembly (MTW or MNA)? If there is a G.A. level review, why wasn't this man's views noticed at that point? If it is a Presbytery level review, why weren't his views noticed then, or if they were, what was done/recorded at that point?

    It seems there are a lot of steps one must go through to get to the position and titles that Choong has ("Teaching Elder," "Missionary," etc). At some point, someone, somewhere should have been throwing up a red flag.
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Puritan Board Doctor

    Is this true? If it is I know a good number of TE's and RE's that need to step down.
  16. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    The process is very similar to that as when a man is called to a local church. Just as when a Teaching Elder is called local church, the Congregational body must issue a call, and the Presbytery must approve his views and credentials, so is the case of a missionary. The only difference is that a missionary receives his "call" from the missionary agency, but he still must be examined by, and approved by, the Presbytery.
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