Westminster Seminary California

[Peter Bell]

Hello!

I’m seriously considering studying at WSC, doing their dual MDiv/MAHT program beginning Fall 2019.

For current or past students, and those familiar with the school, what are your observations from the theology, faculty, curriculum, rigor of the program?

Thanks!

 

[Edward]

@R. Scott Clark might know something about the institution.

 

[ZackF]

@R. Scott Clark might know something about the institution.

And @psycheives

 

[Andrew P.C.]

Hello!

I’m seriously considering studying at WSC, doing their dual MDiv/MAHT program beginning Fall 2019.

For current or past students, and those familiar with the school, what are your observations from the theology, faculty, curriculum, rigor of the program?

Thanks!

From my time down in Escondido and being a member of a prominent church that a few of the faculty attended, I’ve learned a few things.

Many of the professors I met were very pastoral and loving toward the people. It was a blessing to interact with them at church. However, I do disagree with quite a few fundamental issues. For one, I’m not klinean, and many of the professors would lean that direction.

Many there are R2K.

I’m not sure how many are “framework” guys, but i would assume quite a few because of Kline.

 

[psycheives]

And @psycheives

Hi Peter,

I studied ST and HT at WSC for 3 years. What to expect: WSC has got to be one of the HARDEST seminaries. I assume you already know some Greek/Hebrew from Biola? If you want to start this summer, you will cover 30+ chapters of Greek in less than 1 month and most people will cry (yes, the men too). You will take languages for 2 years, then use them through the end even on tests, which is great and should give you skills you won't get at many other seminaries, so rejoice! WSC requires an impossible (I took the "almost" out for a reason) amount of reading. Everyone describes it as "like drinking through a fire hose." You don't have time to think much about what you read/learn and digest it all.

You will be taught to love and appreciate the Confessions and taught a very strong Sabbath view (which is Confessional). Dr R. Scott Clark and Dr. Godfrey will teach you to love and appreciate the Psalms and might even convince you to become an exclusive psalmist (EP). Dr Clark will teach you to be honest with history the best you can and read the ORIGINAL authors rather than people who claim so-and-so-said-this (often their claims are wrong). Dr VanDrunen will give you a great Biblical basis for many of our confessional views and compare these to Rome and Lutherans. You will learn about the value of the Covenant of Grace and the Holy Spirit's great work in our lives, including "union with Christ" and "the order of salvation" (all very important). You will be taught the controversial Covenant Theology of Meredith Kline and hear criticisms of John Murray's CT repeated. You'll learn the controversial "Neo 2 Kingdoms theology" of Dr. David VanDrunen that Andrew Cunningham mentions above. You will also be taught Old Earth theology of the controversial Framework variety. You will be taught a very specific Law-Gospel antithesis that might differ from other Reformed seminaries/theologians who hold "distinctions" rather than antithesis. Some accuse this of being a "Lutheran" (from Rod Rosenbladt's repeating of antinomian Gerhardt Forde) influence but I'll leave that up to you to decide. You will be taught lots of typology, seeing Noah as a type of Christ etc. Hypotheses from Ancient Near East studies will be promoted, such as the notion God used the Hittie covenant treaties to model God's covenants after their form (even though Adam's and Noah's covenants came first in human history). Unless things have changed, you'll be expected to memorize Meredith Kline's controversial book Kingdom Prologue and taught some of his controversial views (a favorite being "death before the fall"). You'll definitely be challenged!

How many years do you plan to go? I would recommend 5 years for MDIV and HT (which requires a 100 page book). If you only go for one degree (MDIV), you can audit the classes for the HT degree for free and skip tests/papers and 100 page book. HT is like a regular Biblical Studies/Systematic degree with papers and tests -- except you have to read more than those degrees (since it's all about history and reading) AND you have to read more to write your 100 page book. So HT is much more work than a BS or ST degree, in my opinion.

What are your future plans/dreams? Called to be a pastor or self-study? Are you single/married/kids? Finances an issue? Want a seminary with single women?

I consider Puritan Theological Seminary (PRTS) with Joel Beeke; the unaccredited Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS) with Joey Pipa; Westminster Seminary CA (WSC) and maybe Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia (WTS) or an Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) to be among the top seminaries. Each has strengths and weaknesses. If I had to do over, I would go to PRTS.

What questions do you have?

 

[Stephen L Smith]

I consider Puritan Theological Seminary (PRTS) with Joel Beeke; the unaccredited Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS) with Joey Pipa; Westminster Seminary CA (WSC) and maybe Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia (WTS) or an Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) to be among the top seminaries. Each has strengths and weaknesses. If I had to do over, I would go to PRTS.

I would add Mid America Reformed Seminary

 

[psycheives]

I would add Mid America Reformed Seminary

Stephen, are you aware of any of these seminaries no longer teaching the original languages? I had heard seminaries were cutting out some of these classes.

 

[ZackF]

Hi Peter,

I studied ST and HT at WSC for 3 years. What to expect: WSC has got to be one of the HARDEST seminaries. I assume you already know some Greek/Hebrew from Biola? If you want to start this summer, you will cover 30+ chapters of Greek in less than 1 month and most people will cry (yes, the men too). WSC requires an impossible (I took the "almost" out for a reason) amount of reading. Everyone describes it as "like drinking through a fire hose." You don't have time to think much about what you read/learn and digest it all.

You will be taught to be faithful and love and appreciate the Confessions and a very strong Sabbath view. Dr R. Scott Clark and Dr. Godfrey will teach you to love and appreciate the Psalms and might even convince you to become an exclusive psalmist (EP). Dr Clark will teach you to be honest with history the best you can. Dr VanDrunen will give you a great Biblical basis for many of our confessional views and compare these to Rome and Lutherans. You will be taught the controversial Covenant Theology of Meredith Kline and hear criticisms of John Murray's CT repeated. You'll learn the controversial "Neo 2 Kingdoms theology" of Dr. David VanDrunen that Andrew Cunningham mentions above. You will also be taught Old Earth theology of the controversial Framework variety. You will be taught a very specific Law-Gospel antithesis that might differ from other Reformed seminaries/theologians who hold "distinctions" rather than antithesis. Some accuse this of being a "Lutheran" (from Rod Rosenbladt's repeating of antinomian Gerhardt Forde) influence but I'll leave that up to you to decide. You will be taught lots of typology, seeing Noah as a type of Christ etc. Hypotheses from Ancient Near East studies will be promoted, such as the notion God used the Hittie covenant treaties to model God's covenants after their form (even though Adam's and Noah's covenants came first in human history). Unless things have changed, you'll be expected to memorize Meredith Kline's controversial book Kingdom Prologue and taught some of his controversial views (a favorite being "death before the fall"). You'll definitely be challenged!

How many years do you plan to go? I would recommend 5 years for MDIV and HT (which requires a 100 page book). If you only go for one degree (MDIV), you can audit the classes for the HT degree for free and skip tests/papers and 100 page book. HT is like a regular Biblical Studies/Systematic degree with papers and tests -- except you have to read more than those degrees (since it's all about history and reading) AND you have to read more to write your 100 page book. So HT is much more work than a BS or ST degree, in my opinion.

What are your future plans/dreams? Called to be a pastor or self-study? Are you single/married/kids? Finances an issue? Want a seminary with single women?

I consider Puritan Theological Seminary (PRTS) with Joel Beeke; the unaccredited Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS) with Joey Pipa; Westminster Seminary CA (WSC) and maybe Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia (WTS) or an Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) to be among the top seminaries. Each has strengths and weaknesses. If I had to do over, I would go to PRTS.

What questions do you have?

Since your asking him for more questions you obviously don’t mind being thorough and so I’ve no guilt from having dropped your name.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Stephen, are you aware of any of these seminaries no longer teaching the original languages? I had heard seminaries were cutting out some of these classes.

Not sure. But I would assume those committed to solid exegesis of scripture would retain them.

In my country, the Reformed Churches of New Zealand chose Mid America as being faithful to the Reformed Confessions and giving the potential pastor a solid grounding in exegesis, theology, pastoral ministry etc. And the president, Dr Venema, has written excellent material in a number of areas of Reformed Theology including covenant theology.

 

[J.L. Allen]

Languages are required at Mid-America. They typically do a summer intensive for Greek and maybe Hebrew. @Alan D. Strange can speak to the specific requirements.

Stephen, are you aware of any of these seminaries no longer teaching the original languages? I had heard seminaries were cutting out some of these classes.

 

[psycheives]

I would add Mid America Reformed Seminary. And the president, Dr Venema, has written excellent material in a number of areas of Reformed Theology including covenant theology.

Yes, I do like Venema's work on CT. I think his is one of the most accurate/fair readings of John Murray's CT and he sees so much that others who have read Murray just somehow shockingly miss.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

At Mid-America Reformed Seminary, the summer intensive (six weeks), customarily taken before the Junior year, is for the first year of Greek: Greek 101 and Greek 102. The second year (Greek 201 and Greek 202) is taken in the course of the first year, along with Hebrew.

Some students prefer to split the languages up and not take both Greek and Hebrew in the first year, i.e., some prefer to do the M.Div. program over the course of four years rather than three.

All biblical courses are based on the original languages.

I only give this information because asked. I am hesitant to do so because the thread requests evaluations of WSC and I do not wish to detract from that. I am happy for the moderators to remove this if it's deemed irrelevant to the thread.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Peter Bell]

Hi Peter,

I studied ST and HT at WSC for 3 years. What to expect: WSC has got to be one of the HARDEST seminaries. I assume you already know some Greek/Hebrew from Biola? If you want to start this summer, you will cover 30+ chapters of Greek in less than 1 month and most people will cry (yes, the men too). You will take languages for 2 years, then use them through the end even on tests, which is great and should give you skills you won't get at many other seminaries, so rejoice! WSC requires an impossible (I took the "almost" out for a reason) amount of reading. Everyone describes it as "like drinking through a fire hose." You don't have time to think much about what you read/learn and digest it all.

You will be taught to love and appreciate the Confessions and taught a very strong Sabbath view (which is Confessional). Dr R. Scott Clark and Dr. Godfrey will teach you to love and appreciate the Psalms and might even convince you to become an exclusive psalmist (EP). Dr Clark will teach you to be honest with history the best you can and read the ORIGINAL authors rather than people who claim so-and-so-said-this (often their claims are wrong). Dr VanDrunen will give you a great Biblical basis for many of our confessional views and compare these to Rome and Lutherans. You will learn about the value of the Covenant of Grace and the Holy Spirit's great work in our lives, including "union with Christ" and "the order of salvation" (all very important). You will be taught the controversial Covenant Theology of Meredith Kline and hear criticisms of John Murray's CT repeated. You'll learn the controversial "Neo 2 Kingdoms theology" of Dr. David VanDrunen that Andrew Cunningham mentions above. You will also be taught Old Earth theology of the controversial Framework variety. You will be taught a very specific Law-Gospel antithesis that might differ from other Reformed seminaries/theologians who hold "distinctions" rather than antithesis. Some accuse this of being a "Lutheran" (from Rod Rosenbladt's repeating of antinomian Gerhardt Forde) influence but I'll leave that up to you to decide. You will be taught lots of typology, seeing Noah as a type of Christ etc. Hypotheses from Ancient Near East studies will be promoted, such as the notion God used the Hittie covenant treaties to model God's covenants after their form (even though Adam's and Noah's covenants came first in human history). Unless things have changed, you'll be expected to memorize Meredith Kline's controversial book Kingdom Prologue and taught some of his controversial views (a favorite being "death before the fall"). You'll definitely be challenged!

How many years do you plan to go? I would recommend 5 years for MDIV and HT (which requires a 100 page book). If you only go for one degree (MDIV), you can audit the classes for the HT degree for free and skip tests/papers and 100 page book. HT is like a regular Biblical Studies/Systematic degree with papers and tests -- except you have to read more than those degrees (since it's all about history and reading) AND you have to read more to write your 100 page book. So HT is much more work than a BS or ST degree, in my opinion.

What are your future plans/dreams? Called to be a pastor or self-study? Are you single/married/kids? Finances an issue? Want a seminary with single women?

I consider Puritan Theological Seminary (PRTS) with Joel Beeke; the unaccredited Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (GPTS) with Joey Pipa; Westminster Seminary CA (WSC) and maybe Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia (WTS) or an Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) to be among the top seminaries. Each has strengths and weaknesses. If I had to do over, I would go to PRTS.

What questions do you have?

Phenomenal reply!

I'm actually looking at either GPTS, PRTS, or WSC to start this Fall.

1) Future plans are Pastoring, shepherding a PCA or OPC church in Orange County post graduation (specifically somewhere in Central OC)
2) Married w/o kids (for now), financially stable with help from my sending church wherever I go.

WSC would be the most difficult, being as I would be traveling 135 miles round-trip 3-4 days per week. But from what I've heard of the education, it's worth it. I know most of the theological controversies, but Machen's motto of "being an expert in the bible" is almost too tantalizing. Plus there's also a fair amount of grads and visibility within the area, so it's easier for people to understanding the context I would be coming out of.

PRTS and GPTS are kind of a tie for me, the unaccredited nature of GPTS isn't a huge worry of mine (supposedly CHEA is recognizing ARTS within this year or the next).

And it's funny you should say the 5 year MDiv/HT program, that's precisely what I applied for! I'd do the dual degree, and then shop a thesis around to a potential PhD program.

You said, knowing what you know now, and if you could do it all over again, you'd chose PRTS? Why would that be?

 

[TheInquirer]

I think it might be worth asking, “Who do I want to pattern my ministry after?” I think what Beeke is trying to do is extremely relevant for aspiring pastors and, from what I can tell, is what the church really needs. If you wanted a career in academia, that might lead you in a different direction.

It is encouraging that many seminaries try to hire guys that have pastoral experience. I think that is helpful but it doesnt always come across in their teaching. Some guys are just really “head” oriented and don’t know how to help aspiring pastors translate that into how it is supposed to help you become more like Christ and help others do likewise.

 

[Andrew P.C.]

Future plans are Pastoring, shepherding a PCA or OPC church in Orange County post graduation (specifically somewhere in Central OC)

Are you currently in contact with the presbyteries here? If not, it would be important to get involved with a local church here first and the presbytery.

 

[Peter Bell]

Are you currently in contact with the presbyteries here? If not, it would be important to get involved with a local church here first and the presbytery.

I am, yes! I've talked to Westminster and the Presbyteries and some churches in the area about planting a dual A29 & PCA church. There's one already in San Diego and Colorado, supposedly.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

If you desire to hear a critical assessment of one of Westminter West's positions by Dr Venema you can listen to a recent one.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=4619135834140

In my estimation there are much better Seminaries. Love Greenville, Puritan, and Mid America. Concerning Westminster West the baggage is heavily slanted toward Meredith Kline. There are problems with some of what is taught concerning Creation, Christ's Kingship, the Law of God and Natural Law speculations, and the Christian life. As Dr. Kinneer noted, when there is an aberreation theologically it almost always has to do with Christology, I agree.

 

[Peter Bell]

If you desire to hear a critical assessment of one of Westminter West's positions by Dr Venema you can listen to a recent one.

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=4619135834140

In my estimation there are much better Seminaries. Love Greenville, Puritan, and Mid America. Concerning Westminster West the baggage is heavily slanted toward Meredith Kline. There are problems with some of what is taught concerning Creation, Christ's Kingship, the Law of God and Natural Law speculations, and the Christian life. As Dr. Kinneer noted, when there is an aberreation theologically it almost always has to do with Christology, I agree.

Thank you! Listening to it now.

The rigor of the curriculum at WSC and the language integration into the curriculum really intrigued me, though I know of some of the theological idiosyncracies of the seminary.

My worry with PRTS or GPTS is i've heard the rigor of the curriculum isn't quite up to the standards of a Westminster. Do you or anyone else know anything of this?

 

[Hamalas]

Thank you! Listening to it now.

The rigor of the curriculum at WSC and the language integration into the curriculum really intrigued me, though I know of some of the theological idiosyncracies of the seminary.

My worry with PRTS or GPTS is i've heard the rigor of the curriculum isn't quite up to the standards of a Westminster. Do you or anyone else know anything of this?

My mentor (a highly gifted OPC Pastor) did his M.Div at Westminster Philly and just recently did a ThM at PRTS. He says that the academic standards at Puritan reminded him of his time at Westminster and were solid.

If I may ask brother: are you looking at Pastoral ministry, or seminary teaching/academic work?

 

[Peter Bell]

My mentor (a highly gifted OPC Pastor) did his M.Div at Westminster Philly and just recently did a ThM at PRTS. He says that the academic standards at Puritan reminded him of his time at Westminster and were solid.

If I may ask brother: are you looking at Pastoral ministry, or seminary teaching/academic work?

Hello! I’m looking at Pastoral Ministry, wanting the most rigorous program to prepare me for a rigorous calling.

I know the ThM program is much more rigorous than the MDiv, I’d love to hear from someone who’s completed it post ATS accreditation, I know some standards may have lowered since then.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Thank you! Listening to it now.

The rigor of the curriculum at WSC and the language integration into the curriculum really intrigued me, though I know of some of the theological idiosyncracies of the seminary.

My worry with PRTS or GPTS is i've heard the rigor of the curriculum isn't quite up to the standards of a Westminster. Do you or anyone else know anything of this?

A good friend of mine (who was actually the assistant minister in my parents' church in Northern Ireland) transferred from WTS-PA to Westminster Seminary, California after one year in the former institution. I think that he had concerns both doctrinally and academically with WTS-PA, but was very impressed with WSC. From what I can gather, WSC is ahead of PRTS and GPTS academically, though they may be catching up with it.

I would, however, still have serious concerns that any dissent from the doctrinal distinctives of WSC could hinder your progress. Perhaps that concern is misplaced. Do any graduates of WSC who disagreed with R2K or Klineanism ever find that their dissent from such views caused them any real problems in the seminary?

 

[Hamalas]

Hello! I’m looking at Pastoral Ministry, wanting the most rigorous program to prepare me for a rigorous calling.

I know the ThM program is much more rigorous than the MDiv, I’d love to hear from someone who’s completed it post ATS accreditation, I know some standards may have lowered since then.

Do you mean someone who's completed the MDiv or the ThM post-ATS?

 

[Edward]

Hello! I’m looking at Pastoral Ministry, wanting the most rigorous program to prepare me for a rigorous calling.

Don't let a quest for intellectual development get in the way of developing a pastoral heart.

As for massive reading lists - at some point it becomes little more than hazing. You might get the material read, but if it more than can be absorbed, you haven't really learned much. Going to the seminary with the most rigorous reading list might not make you the best pastor.

 

[KMK]

Count the cost...literally.

 

[Peter Bell]

Don't let a quest for intellectual development get in the way of developing a pastoral heart.

As for massive reading lists - at some point it becomes little more than hazing. You might get the material read, but if it more than can be absorbed, you haven't really learned much. Going to the seminary with the most rigorous reading list might not make you the best pastor.

Completely understood. I don’t mean to disparage the office whatsoever, or to search for a “high office,” I just wish to be as prepared as possible spiritually, physically, academically for the pastorate. I know seminary represents only 3-4 years of a hopefully long and fruitful ministry, but I would love the best preparation possible, all things considered!

Thank you for your kind, but pointed words towards Christ!

 

[Peter Bell]

Do you mean someone who's completed the MDiv or the ThM post-ATS?

MDiv post ATS. I know the program lowered from 127 credits to 106, so I’d love to know what changed academically!

 

[Peter Bell]

Count the cost...literally.

Tuition wise? The financial aid is incredible, won’t graduate with any debt, if the Lord calls me to study there.

 

[KMK]

Tuition wise? The financial aid is incredible, won’t graduate with any debt, if the Lord calls me to study there.

That is great news! Are the other institutions offering the same?

 

[Peter Bell]

That is great news! Are the other institutions offering the same?

Scholarship, church help, friends/family, and jobs for wife and I to get through. And PRTS and GPTS I’ll have a church matching scholarship. My sending church is incredibly gracious, we all want to make sure seminary is a possibility with little debt.

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Hello!

I’m seriously considering studying at WSC, doing their dual MDiv/MAHT program beginning Fall 2019.

For current or past students, and those familiar with the school, what are your observations from the theology, faculty, curriculum, rigor of the program?

Thanks!

Peter,

Happy to try to help. Contact me directly at:

https://heidelblog.net/contact