What about them vaccines?

[Christoffer]

I am sceptical myself. At times I voice this skepticism, and of course those who believe in the benevolent state get mad, and throw all sorts of insults.

However I don't trust government. I trust stories from persons I know more than official government research.

How do we approach this issue so as not to cause unnecessary offense?

regards
Christoffer

 

[Leslie]

What exactly are you asking? It is not at all clear. What vaccines, what government, what is your concern? It sounds like an interesting discussion to get started, but you are being too cryptic to get any replies, or so I think.

 

[Christoffer]

ok I assumed too much it seems. My apologies

The discussion where I live concerns the flu (and the variations of it: swine-, bird- etc.), small pox, measles etc.

These diseases that "everyone" had when I was a kid. Seems nowadays if you don't vaccinate your kids you are a menace to society.

There seems to be something religious about the pro-vaccine movement. A mental block that does not allow for questioning of either the governments wisdom or benevolence.

regards
Chris

 

[Tirian]

To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate, is that the question?

 

[Christoffer]

Yes. And if we don't, how do we deal with the offense it causes? At base it is a religious issue.

it gives people reason to attack the church. "They are antisocial, do not care about other people etc."

Personally we have vaccinated against polio and other diseases we find dangerous. We don't take flu shots or shots against chicken pox. Reason is I believe in global conspiracy and I don't think science can "confirm" anything one way or another, it works with hypothesis that can be contradicted by future observation

 

[earl40]

Yes. And if we don't, how do we deal with the offense it causes? At base it is a religious issue.

it gives people reason to attack the church. "They are antisocial, do not care about other people etc."

Personally we have vaccinated against polio and other diseases we find dangerous. We don't take flu shots or shots against chicken pox. Reason is I believe in global conspiracy and I don't think science can "confirm" anything one way or another, it works with hypothesis that can be contradicted by future observation

Why did you choose to take it for polio but not for the flu? My personal opinion is that if you have the ability to get a vaccine one ought to do such not only for yourself but for the love of ones neighbor and family.

PS. I get them all because I work at a hospital and from what I can see the flu vaccine did not help me at all this year. Of course after getting the flu this year it only reinforces my conviction one ought to get vaccines with the hope they get it right next time.

 

[Christoffer]

Because I don't trust the government. I trust more the stories of people I know, of people who tell of their own experiences. Of reactions and conditions that have followed upon getting vaccinated.

There is some accountability there after all.

Government can do whatever it pleases, with no accountability.

 

[earl40]

I can understand your mistrust though I would advise asking your Dr. if you ought to trust the goverment on this issue.

 

[Christoffer]

He is employed by the government and has superiors. he cannot know what is in the vaccine but must trust the people higher up. And I believe in corruption in high places

 

[Tyrese]

People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.

 

[Christoffer]

I understand that, and of course people are free to set their conditions for associating with people.

Why cannot avoiding vaccines be seen as loving towards ones own children? There are many testimonies of things going wrong after vaccinations. Must we assume that vaccinating is THE loving thing to do?

The thing that makes me sceptical towards vaccines is the hysterical reaction of some people when one questions vaccines. It is as if they knew, somehow magically, current vaccines are good. They cannot know that. Science might still one day believe otherwise.

 

[Tyrese]

I understand that, and of course people are free to set their conditions for associating with people.

Why cannot avoiding vaccines be seen as loving towards ones own children? There are many testimonies of things going wrong after vaccinations. Must we assume that vaccinating is THE loving thing to do?

The thing that makes me sceptical towards vaccines is the hysterical reaction of some people when one questions vaccines. It is as if they knew, somehow magically, current vaccines are good. They cannot know that. Science might still one day believe otherwise.

Most people ignore what we call side affects. In fact, doctors usually warn us when certain vaccines or medications come with them. My point in the previous post still stands brother. It stands because there's a possibility (and a high one at that) that you could be wrong about the whole episode.

 

[Christoffer]

because there's a possibility (and a high one at that) that you could be wrong about the whole episode.

how come there is a high possibility of that?

 

[Tyrese]

because there's a possibility (and a high one at that) that you could be wrong about the whole episode.

how come there is a high possibility of that?

You should ask your doctor how come, unless you think he's apart of the scheme as well.

 

[Christoffer]

so you don't know the probability. ok

 

[DeniseM]

Why cannot avoiding vaccines be seen as loving towards ones own children?

I think you make a good point here. At the very least, I don't think that anyone could make a solid argument that one view or the other is the Christian view. Each family should make those decisions for themselves, based on their particular circumstances. In our family, no one takes the flu shot. One of our children is allergic to eggs and has never been able to take the vaccine because eggs shells are used in the process of producing the vaccine itself. And I personally don't see it as necessary, when our children aren't in school(we homeschool) around large groups of other children everyday.

Vaccines shouldn't get all of the credit for reducing illness in our day either. Better hygiene practices have done a lot to prevent some of the more avoidable illnesses as well.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

Whether or not your children are vaccinated is your own business. I can count on 1 finger the number of times that anyone other than their physician ever asked if my children were vaccinated against anything, so I cannot really imagine that it is an everyday topic of conversation. Maybe I just run in different circles, but unless your kids are wearing tags that say "I've not been vaccinated against the flu" how does this even come up?

 

[Christoffer]

Well I am preparing a little for what is to come. Already on fb the belittling of "anti-vaxxers" is on, and my country has less of a tradition of freedom than yours. So as with everything you see it coming round the bend. I have aquainances who are very pro-vaccine, with them it tends to come up. Hard to avoid in the long run.

But for the moment, there is no requirement at school/in the workplace etc.

But there are a lot of things that can cause offense, this being one of them. Views on foreign policy (against Russia) is another that divides people here.

So the original question can be put on a more general level; how do we deal with controversial issues that are not really related to the gospel (ie. do definite "christian" position)? We have to make choices, and since we are not of this world, oftentimes they go against contemporary wisdom. Should we take abuse for things not related to the gospel or should we go along with the world.

 

[matt01]

However I don't trust government. I trust stories from persons I know more than official government research.

Why don't you trust the government? Is there a conspiracy regarding the vaccines? While the govt might be filled with fellow sinners, this text (Rom. 13:4) also comes to mind: "for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." While doctors ( in your situation more specifically) support the vaccine system, I don't think we should simply discount the science behind it.

 

[Christoffer]

Why I don't trust it? One reason is human history. That is a testimony to the wickedness of man. Reducing unnecessary population was done in the soviet union, no new thing. There is no reason it won't be attempted again, the incentives are all there.

When it comes to political power, there can ultimately only be one. And you will either rule or be ruled, there is no third alternative. Some have realized this and have made arrangements, if my studies are correct.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

The 6th commandment requires you to do all within your power to protect your family, and you must do so to best of your understanding and perception of all threats. So, when push comes to shove, I don't see that you have any choice but to stand firm in your decision to not vaccinate in given situations. However this does not mean that you go out looking for a fight either. Being "shrewd as serpents and harmless as doves" is also recommended.

The gospel itself is offensive enough to the world, and given the opportunity, we must always defend that hill at all costs. But causing offense in other matters (not directly related to the gospel) just so you have a hill to defend does not seem the better part of wisdom to me. My advise would be to gather all the information you can to back your position, and be prepared to do battle when the fight comes to you. Do not go out looking for the fight.

Blessing,

 

[Bill The Baptist]

People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.

If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?

 

[mgkortus]

If you want a scientific perspective:

With regards to the flu vaccines - they are based on predictions. Every year, a new strain of flu virus causes the vast majority of flu cases. This is due to viral evolution as it adapts to overcome the immune system. Researchers make educated predictions when they design flu vaccines. Therefore, certain years, the flu vaccine is very effective, while other years it seems to do little to guard against the flu.

With regards to other diseases such as polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, etc. - these are proven vaccines that effectively prevent disease. A decision not to utilize them leaves your children susceptible to such diseases. That said, chances are, at least in America, that if you chose not vaccinate your children, they likely will not get one of these diseases, such as polio. That is because of "herd-immunity" - the vast majority of the US population is not susceptible to these diseases. This means the majority of people we interact with/encounter do not carry the disease; therefore, though one may not be protected (immunized) against it, he/she likely will never encounter the disease.
This only works though because of established "herd immunity." There are instances, where small groups of people who have not taken a given vaccine will open the door for the disease to re-manifest itself. This happened several years ago (2005) in a small Amish community in Minnesota - they came down with poliovirus because they chose not to vaccinate. If not for the broader herd immunity that exists, this could have caused another large-scale outbreak of this dreadful disease.

As a scientist (I specifically studied poliovirus for three years of my career), I urge you to utilize such established vaccines for the sake of your family, as well as your surrounding community. With regards to the flu vaccine - I do not have similarly strong feelings. I personally do not get the flu vaccine each year because of the limitations associated with it.

 

[Tyrese]

If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?

Without getting into whether or not I think your question is a good question, please keep the intent of my post in view. The point is many people are concerned about the flu; that's just a fact that none of us can avoid. Having a "no big deal" mentality demonstrates a lack of love for the concerns of others. Reliable sources tell us that the flu shot is not 100% reliable (but then again what is 100% reliable), so we should be mindful of other peoples children even if they've received their flu shots. This goes beyond the flu, this is as simple as helping other parents keep their children away from the common cold. Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it, but there's other times when parents bring there children to a public gathering when they're are obviously sick, miserable, and contagious. Why do such a thing unless you're downplaying the severity of different viruses? Not to mention different viruses effect people differently. In no way do I plan to go back and forth with you over the matter as I don't see it as a matter for debate. I don't see why anyone would even want to argue over this. We have to treat others the way we would like to be treated, and remember Philippians 2:3.

 

[SRoper]

Vaccination is probably the single greatest medical advancement ever. There is no "controversy"--to decline or delay vaccination is simply nuts. Vaccinations are not 100% effective, so those who refuse to vaccinate put everyone at increased risk. Those who refuse to vaccinate the same as pacifists who refuse to defend their families and their nation. Frankly, it is a moral issue.

 

[mgkortus]

If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?

The possibility exists that especially viral diseases adapt/evolve so that the immunity provided by the vaccine is no longer sufficient for protection. This can also be seen in antibiotic-resistant bacteria - they develop resistance to specific antibiotics, that would normally work for treatment.

Non-vaccinated children can provide the reservoir for such adaptation/evolution.

 

[Christoffer]

If you want a scientific perspective:

With regards to the flu vaccines - they are based on predictions. Every year, a new strain of flu virus causes the vast majority of flu cases. This is due to viral evolution as it adapts to overcome the immune system. Researchers make educated predictions when they design flu vaccines. Therefore, certain years, the flu vaccine is very effective, while other years it seems to do little to guard against the flu.

With regards to other diseases such as polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, etc. - these are proven vaccines that effectively prevent disease. A decision not to utilize them leaves your children susceptible to such diseases. That said, chances are, at least in America, that if you chose not vaccinate your children, they likely will not get one of these diseases, such as polio. That is because of "herd-immunity" - the vast majority of the US population is not susceptible to these diseases. This means the majority of people we interact with/encounter do not carry the disease; therefore, though one may not be protected (immunized) against it, he/she likely will never encounter the disease.
This only works though because of established "herd immunity." There are instances, where small groups of people who have not taken a given vaccine will open the door for the disease to re-manifest itself. This happened several years ago (2005) in a small Amish community in Minnesota - they came down with poliovirus because they chose not to vaccinate. If not for the broader herd immunity that exists, this could have caused another large-scale outbreak of this dreadful disease.

As a scientist (I specifically studied poliovirus for three years of my career), I urge you to utilize such established vaccines for the sake of your family, as well as your surrounding community. With regards to the flu vaccine - I do not have similarly strong feelings. I personally do not get the flu vaccine each year because of the limitations associated with it.

Thanks. We are vaccinated against polio, measles etc.

I am mainly thinking about flu vaccines now

 

[DeniseM]

Vaccination is probably the single greatest medical advancement ever. There is no "controversy"--to decline or delay vaccination is simply nuts. Vaccinations are not 100% effective, so those who refuse to vaccinate put everyone at increased risk. Those who refuse to vaccinate the same as pacifists who refuse to defend their families and their nation. Frankly, it is a moral issue.

A quick search brought up this example of medical reason not to give your child a specific vaccine:
Your child should not have MMR if they have:
significant immunosupression
severe allergies to neomycin or kanamycin (types of antibiotic)
had a severe reaction to MMR before.
You can read the page in full here.
The instances of children that cannot be vaccinated are likely more common than you are aware of. I gave an example, in my post above, of our son that can't take the flu shot because of an egg allergy. Another of our children had a severe reaction at each of his routine vaccinations, until we as parents made the choice to delay the remainder of his shots until we and our doctor thought it would be safe. Our doctor supports the delay of vaccines, if so desired by the parents and certainly doesn't make us feel like we're 'nuts' for doing so. I stand by my statement above, that each family will have to examine all of the factors in their particular circumstances and make the best decision that they can for their own families.

 

[Jack K]

If you enjoy getting the flu, you should be free to say "no" to the shots. Just be sure to stay away from the rest of us if you get sick so that you don't share your enjoyment with us.

The idea you have that there's an international conspiracy really is the core issue. I urge you to question your conspiracy theory. Large-scale conspiracies of the sort you're talking about are incredibly difficult to maintain in democratic societies, and therefore unlikely. This one would take the evil cooperation of thousands of highly educated medical professionals and scientists, all of whom have free access to the Internet. In this communications age, it is unlikely that they are all subjecting us to misinformation.

I don't know what causes you to believe in a conspiracy. But if you have not yet done so I urge you, as gently and kindly as I can, to consider whether some lack of trust in God on your part has a role in your quickness to see a conspiracy. It may be that this is not the case. I don't mean to accuse you. But it seems prudent to consider the possibility, at least. It's so easy for all of us to fall into patterns of worry, myself included. And conspiracy-theory thinking is one way worry reveals itself at times, in some of us. So I suspect it is worth considering whether or not Matthew 6:25 and following, which addresses worry and anxiety, is something you might take to heart.

 

[jambo]

It is of course your decision but I feel it's a no brainer. As a diabetic I get a flu injection every year and thankful for it. An odd year there is an additional one such as the year swine flu was doing the rounds. In terms of children, the risks that come from not getting them vaccinated are much greater than the risks associated with the vaccine itself.