What about them vaccines?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Whether or not your children are vaccinated is your own business. I can count on 1 finger the number of times that anyone other than their physician ever asked if my children were vaccinated against anything, so I cannot really imagine that it is an everyday topic of conversation. Maybe I just run in different circles, but unless your kids are wearing tags that say "I've not been vaccinated against the flu" how does this even come up?

Interestingly, just today at lunch at work, one of my coworkers brought up vaccinations out-of-the-blue in relation to the measles outbreak in California. He said he thinks any parent who does not vaccinate their children should be sued if they catch a disease they could be vaccinated for. Also, just today, USA Today had this opinion piece.

Jail 'anti-vax' parents: Column

On many online discussion forums, if the topic comes up, anyone who does not vaccinate their children is usually cruelly ridiculed. I think the US is much farther down the path of persecution of people who do not vaccinate their children than you may realize. We vaccinated our children for the recommended childhood vaccines but do not get the flu shot. What happens when some more controversial vaccine becomes a requirement such as the HPV vaccine for teenage girls (it's highly recommended now)? This is more a lifestyle behavior vaccine than anything else and has been associated with some nasty side effects. I worry about the future in this area and hope my children become adults before it becomes a more serious issue.
 
People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.

If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?

I would be concerned for the child who is not vaccinated. I know that some times people are forced to go under treatment against their wishes and in some cases I am OK with this. Each case presents different circumstances. Take for instance my "case". I have 2 children with CF and I know it would be a sinful choice if I did not vaccinate. What we are seeing here is a "case" of people who do not trust the government to force something they think is harmful. I can understand the lack of trust, though I do not agree that in this area of conversation I believe one ought to vaccinate for MMR. Would I make him do such? I am afraid many would not like my answer to that question. For the flu I am less dogmatic about this UNLESS a child ought to get it because of this I mentioned above.
 
Last edited:
If you enjoy getting the flu, you should be free to say "no" to the shots. Just be sure to stay away from the rest of us if you get sick so that you don't share your enjoyment with us. :)

The idea you have that there's an international conspiracy really is the core issue. I urge you to question your conspiracy theory. Large-scale conspiracies of the sort you're talking about are incredibly difficult to maintain in democratic societies, and therefore unlikely. This one would take the evil cooperation of thousands of highly educated medical professionals and scientists, all of whom have free access to the Internet. In this communications age, it is unlikely that they are all subjecting us to misinformation.

I don't know what causes you to believe in a conspiracy. But if you have not yet done so I urge you, as gently and kindly as I can, to consider whether some lack of trust in God on your part has a role in your quickness to see a conspiracy. It may be that this is not the case. I don't mean to accuse you. But it seems prudent to consider the possibility, at least. It's so easy for all of us to fall into patterns of worry, myself included. And conspiracy-theory thinking is one way worry reveals itself at times, in some of us. So I suspect it is worth considering whether or not Matthew 6:25 and following, which addresses worry and anxiety, is something you might take to heart.

Amen. One of the biggest problems with conspiracy theories is that they are often designed to be impossible to disprove.
 
I hear much of the concern is that certain vaccines are linked to autism. But so far, frankly I think it is bad science.
 
Vaccines are variable in efficacy. Measles is reputed to be 99% effective; the one for the flu (this year) is more of a miss than a hit.

I am in my 60s and get a flu shot annually (originally due to my former work in a medical related field of a large senior care community). Most years it protects me. This year it did not. My M.O. following the flu is to develop a cough for 2-3 weeks that triggers a vasovagal syncope several times a day. My cough is still with me from the flu on January 5. The last time I got the flu (a few years ago) it resulted in a cough that led to my first experience with this syncope. Passing out on the busy 5 freeway in L.A. at 8 in the morning, my car drifted across two lanes, struck the wall, jumped a guard rail, careened down a hillside and into a residential neighborhood. I woke up after having struck an island around a tree with the tires at 45 degree angles to the car, the front end crushed, and steam rising out of the hood. Praise the Lord that nobody was hurt or killed by my 65 mph UNguided missile.

In other words, the flu is a life and death issue for me. I greatly appreciate my neighbors caring enough to tamp down the odds of an epidemic by immunizing. So, whether one can trust Big Brother or not, the side-effects of immunizations are statistically less significant than the likely numbers of deaths and serious disease due to the illness. So, for me, that means it is a no-brainer issue . . . practically and ethically.

As for the measles, it is EXTREMELY contagious, more so than the flu. And, the vaccine for the measles is MUCH more effective than that for the flu. So, prudence might lead some to get effective vaccinations and pass on the less effective ones. I will get them all.
 
The 6th commandment requires you to do all within your power to protect your family, and you must do so to best of your understanding and perception of all threats. So, when push comes to shove, I don't see that you have any choice but to stand firm in your decision to not vaccinate in given situations.

A perhaps too narrow reading of the commandment.

" The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;"

The duty appears to be to a larger group than just your family.
 
I would note in general that one of the practices of those most diligent in their Islamic faith in Pakistan is to murder those who vaccinate children against Polio. I suppose they could be smarter and more educated than me, since I had both Salk and Sabin.
 
actually, i've had the same impression of the anti-vax movement.

Flu can have some serious complications, particularly for the young, elderly and those with compromised immune systems. The risks of taking a vaccine are minimal compared to the benefit for yourself and others.
 
actually, i've had the same impression of the anti-vax movement.

"Flu can have some serious complications, particularly for the young, elderly and those with compromised immune systems. The risks of taking a vaccine are minimal compared to the benefit for yourself and others.

he most common flu complications include viral or bacterial pneumonia, ear infections and sinus infections, especially in children, dehydration, and worsening of chronic medical conditions, such as congestive heart failure, asthma, or diabetes.

Other complications include muscle inflammation (myositis), central nervous system disease, and heart problems including heart attacks, inflammation of the heart muscle (myocarditis), and inflammation of the sac around the heart (pericarditis).

Those at highest risk for flu complications include adults over 65, children ages 6 months to 4 years, nursing home residents, adults and children with heart or lung disease, people with compromised immune systems (including people with HIV/AIDS), and pregnant women." Flu Complications: Heart Problems, Ear or Sinus Infections, and More
 
People who don't vaccinate their Children are very much free not too. However I would think it fair to allow little exposer to other people's Children as many people are genuinely concerned about the flu. "Biblical love" would demand that you care about what others think, and not walk around saying "it's not a big deal", or "this was my experience". The flu (and other virus) is very real, and it's certainly not something we should take lightly, especially when it's our duty to care for the mental, physical, and spiritual well being of others. We also have to keep the golden rule in view when we're discussing contagious viruses. Like I said, you're free to do as you wish, but think of the brethren, which is thinking much more broadly.

If your children are vaccinated, and if vaccines really work, why would you be concerned if your children come in contact with non-vaccinated children?

The vaccines work, but only on a percentage of those vaccinated. This is why you hear the phrase 'herd immunity' in these sorts of discussions. Someone not choosing to vaccinate DOES expose other vaccinated children to potential danger (say, for example, that 85% developed an immunity, but 15% did not).
 
Whether or not your children are vaccinated is your own business. I can count on 1 finger the number of times that anyone other than their physician ever asked if my children were vaccinated against anything, so I cannot really imagine that it is an everyday topic of conversation. Maybe I just run in different circles, but unless your kids are wearing tags that say "I've not been vaccinated against the flu" how does this even come up?

Interestingly, just today at lunch at work, one of my coworkers brought up vaccinations out-of-the-blue in relation to the measles outbreak in California. He said he thinks any parent who does not vaccinate their children should be sued if they catch a disease they could be vaccinated for. Also, just today, USA Today had this opinion piece.

Jail 'anti-vax' parents: Column

On many online discussion forums, if the topic comes up, anyone who does not vaccinate their children is usually cruelly ridiculed. I think the US is much farther down the path of persecution of people who do not vaccinate their children than you may realize. We vaccinated our children for the recommended childhood vaccines but do not get the flu shot. What happens when some more controversial vaccine becomes a requirement such as the HPV vaccine for teenage girls (it's highly recommended now)? This is more a lifestyle behavior vaccine than anything else and has been associated with some nasty side effects. I worry about the future in this area and hope my children become adults before it becomes a more serious issue.

I agree with your feelings here. Persecution and belittling of those who don't vaccinate is getting stronger. This already suggests something satanic at work. Truth does not need these kind of methods.

It is most important to realize that it is impossible to say what the net benefit of vaccines have been. Sure polio and measles are gone, but is that due to vaccines or would they have disappeared anyway? And if we assume that vaccines are to thank, at what price has this victory come? What would we NOT have suffered from today without the vaccines? Science does not prove these kinds of things, it cannot deal with counterfactuals. There are no grounds for a dogmatic pro-vaccine stance, yet many assume it. Why? At least the church should allow freedom of conscience.

How does one know that the risk associated with the flu shot is less than the risk associated with getting sick? Is it even possible to know this? Yet this is what many people claim.

I don't know what causes you to believe in a conspiracy. But if you have not yet done so I urge you, as gently and kindly as I can, to consider whether some lack of trust in God on your part has a role in your quickness to see a conspiracy.

My reasons for believing in a conspiracy are just based on normal assumptions. Political power can ultimately only be one, and one will either rule or be ruled. Those with means (captains of business, rich folk) will have the means for insuring themselves against being ruled (by buying off the political process). They will pervert and stupify the people to insure against revolution etc. Also cleanse the population, weed it out just like the economy weeds out unproductive business. There is nothing strange about this, it follows from "normal" human behaviour.

This is the realistic view to take of history. I really can't see how one could believe anything else without assuming some inherent goodness in man.

But lets start another thread for that if needed. Otherwise this risks branching out too much.
 
The 6th commandment requires you to do all within your power to protect your family, and you must do so to best of your understanding and perception of all threats. So, when push comes to shove, I don't see that you have any choice but to stand firm in your decision to not vaccinate in given situations.

A perhaps too narrow reading of the commandment.

" The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;"

The duty appears to be to a larger group than just your family.

Yes, your family would be just one of the places to apply the commandments. I apologize for only selecting one facet of the diamond.
 
The 6th commandment requires you to do all within your power to protect your family, and you must do so to best of your understanding and perception of all threats. So, when push comes to shove, I don't see that you have any choice but to stand firm in your decision to not vaccinate in given situations.

A perhaps too narrow reading of the commandment.

" The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any;"

The duty appears to be to a larger group than just your family.

Yes, your family would be just one of the places to apply the commandments. I apologize for only selecting one facet of the diamond.

Interpreting the 6th commandment this way seems question-begging to me.

Isn't it possible to interpret this in such a way that those who believe themselves/their family to be more at risk need to take the necessary precautions in order to protect themselves and let others follow their consciences. Is this not loving ones neighbour?

Cannot the demand of the 6th commandment be applied in this way?
 
Last edited:
To the Parent of the Unvaccinated Child Who Exposed my Family to Measles | Kid Nurse Sir the reason you are getting pushback is contained in this article. Same logic applies that makes folks accommodate dietary requests: 1 Corinthians 8:13. In this case weaker is literal. It is the person or people with various forms of cancer and various conditions and diseases that make "just getting the flu" something more serious. And measles and mumps? There was a reason in my parent's day sufferers from these diseases were quarantined.

Allow me to be blunt: Most of you can have a bad day or two with a flu and go on with things. My immune system is a bit busy trying to find the pancreas that no longer works. I get the flu, it is a guaranteed trip to the ER and a strong possibility of DKA (look it up. Ketoacidosis is not funny and is painfully real. It put me in the hospital once and I prefer not to lose another week of my life thank you). The herd immunity and vaccines serve as a way to protet the allergic and immunocompromised folks. Also known as the weaker bretheren and sisters.
 
Yes. And if we don't, how do we deal with the offense it causes? At base it is a religious issue.

it gives people reason to attack the church. "They are antisocial, do not care about other people etc."

Not sure how this ties in with the church, but maybe it is associated in Finland?
Off topic but I reformed my diet and exersise a little over a year ago and haven't had flu or a cold since. I m o if there is anything to be sceptical against it is the food industry.
 
Last edited:
Interpreting the 6th commandment this way seems question-begging to me.

Well, the language in quotes isn't my interpretation - it is that of the Westminster divines, to which I have subscribed.

How it works is this - if a child has a known allergy to an ingredient or a compromised immune system, the parent needs to accommodate that. If the child is able to tolerate it, the parent owes a duty to the community to protect those who can't vaccinate, or for whom the vaccination is not effective.

As for conspiracy theories - I collect them; seeing what is really going on just means that you are probably more perceptive than most. But unlike many conspiracy theorists, I know that there is nothing I can do about them and don't fret about them.
 
Interpreting the 6th commandment this way seems question-begging to me.

Well, the language in quotes isn't my interpretation - it is that of the Westminster divines, to which I have subscribed.

How it works is this - if a child has a known allergy to an ingredient or a compromised immune system, the parent needs to accommodate that. If the child is able to tolerate it, the parent owes a duty to the community to protect those who can't vaccinate, or for whom the vaccination is not effective.

As for conspiracy theories - I collect them; seeing what is really going on just means that you are probably more perceptive than most. But unlike many conspiracy theorists, I know that there is nothing I can do about them and don't fret about them.

The question begging part is interpreting it as it is the duty of those who can vaccinate to protect those who can't. This assumes that vaccines are a positive thing. What if the parents of a child are convinced that they are useless at best, harmful at worst?

And, what if they are right?

These are the central questions.

If the government makes vaccinations mandatory I will comply without protest. No big deal after all in the grand scheme of things. having a clean conscience however is more important.

That is why I am trying to figure out the moral oughts here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top