What church heritage best fits Augustine's theology

[Stephen L Smith]

BB Warfield made the classic statement that the Reformation was a triumph of Augustine's view of grace over his view of the church. In this regard I am interested in what you think re what church heritage best fits Augustine's theology.

 

[yeutter]

I put down high Church Anglicanism [non tractarian] but a case could be made for for his ecclesiology being that of Orthodoxy and his soteriology and view of the sacraments being Lutheran.

 

[Hamalas]

I think I need to see more discussion before I vote.

 

[Scott1]

I think I need to see more discussion before I vote.

I definitely need more popcorn before voting.

 

[Jash Comstock]

I put low church Anglicanism. Within low church Anglicanism, there is still a presence of Augustinian views of sin and grace, along with the liturgical and Episcopalian aspects of Augustine's church period. This strain of Anglicanism is especially present among African circles, which is where Augustine was from ironically. Ultimately, Augustine is difficult to place though, because throughout his life his theology was ever evolving. The young Augustine is not the Augustine of The Confessions, and the Augustine of The Confessions is not the final Augustine. Remember, his period wasn't nearly as organized and neat as our own, ultimately I think he is multifaceted and even contradictory at times, and therefore cannot be denominatially boxed in very easily...

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Ultimately, Augustine is difficult to place though, because throughout his life his theology was ever evolving. The young Augustine is not the Augustine of The Confessions, and the Augustine of The Confessions is not the final Augustine. Remember, his period wasn't nearly as organized and neat as our own, ultimately I think he is multifaceted and even contradictory at times, and therefore cannot be denominatially boxed in very easily...

Yes I think this is a fair assessment so it is more of a fun exercise. The fact is one can see some clear Reformed/Lutheran strains of thought in Augustine but contradictorily also Roman Catholicism.

 

[arapahoepark]

I put low church Anglicanism. Within low church Anglicanism, there is still a presence of Augustinian views of sin and grace, along with the liturgical and Episcopalian aspects of Augustine's church period. This strain of Anglicanism is especially present among African circles, which is where Augustine was from ironically. Ultimately, Augustine is difficult to place though, because throughout his life his theology was ever evolving. The young Augustine is not the Augustine of The Confessions, and the Augustine of The Confessions is not the final Augustine. Remember, his period wasn't nearly as organized and neat as our own, ultimately I think he is multifaceted and even contradictory at times, and therefore cannot be denominatially boxed in very easily...

I said the same for the same reasons. I think he would be more low church.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

I think he would be more low church.

Would not the strange combination of Reformed theology and Romanism make him more High Church Anglican?

 

[arapahoepark]

I think he would be more low church.

Would not the strange combination of Reformed theology and Romanism make him more High Church Anglican?

Quite a lot happened between him and high church anglicanism and romanism, maybe I should have said Lutheran.

 

[CharlieJ]

Most closely? Roman Catholic. He believed that merit is required for final salvation, although all merits are enabled by prevenient grace. He also believed in baptismal regeneration, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and Eucharist as sacrifice. He also taught that there was no salvation outside the visible Catholic church (maybe some extraordinary exceptions?). He also, especially late in his life, believed in ongoing miracles and venerating relics.

Now, are there strains of thought in Augustine that Luther and Calvin could legitimately appeal to? Absolutely. But that's not the same as being able to claim him for Protestantism.

Are there ways in which Roman Catholicism has moved past Augustine? Yes, that's also true. It's not clear to me that he would have articulated his belief in real presence in terms of transubstantiation. Likewise, it's unclear what he would have thought of the way the papacy continued to arrogate authority to itself more explicitly through the centuries.

 

[MW]

I think Warfield's statement was intended to provoke thought about Protestantism's catholic heritage, not to fix a system of interpretation on Augustine.

 

[yeutter]

... He also taught that there was no salvation outside the visible Catholic church (maybe some extraordinary exceptions?). He also, especially late in his life, believed in ongoing miracles and venerating relics.

Now, are there strains of thought in Augustine that Luther and Calvin could legitimately appeal to? Absolutely. But that's not the same as being able to claim him for Protestantism.

Are there ways in which Roman Catholicism has moved past Augustine? Yes, that's also true. It's not clear to me that he would have articulated his belief in real presence in terms of transubstantiation. Likewise, it's unclear what he would have thought of the way the papacy continued to arrogate authority to itself more explicitly through the centuries.

He taught that their was no salvation outside of the visible Catholic Church; yet at the same time held that Donatist and Novation sacraments were valid. He also held that Donatist and Novation ordinations were valid, though schismatic, and therefore irregular.
I agree he taught the doctrine of a real presence; but it is not clear to me that he taught transubstantiation, as opposed to consubstantiation.
Maybe he would be closer to being a Jansenist then either Roman Catholic or Anglican or Lutheran.

 

[Romans922]

All the Church heritages listed are post-Augustine so I can't answer. If I had to answer I would say none of them fit him. Because any of the Lutheranism, Anglicanism, or Papists weren't that in his day.

 

[Justified]

After reading discussion, I'd probably change my answer from low church Anglican to high church or Roman Catholic.

 

[CharlieJ]

... He also taught that there was no salvation outside the visible Catholic church (maybe some extraordinary exceptions?). He also, especially late in his life, believed in ongoing miracles and venerating relics.

Now, are there strains of thought in Augustine that Luther and Calvin could legitimately appeal to? Absolutely. But that's not the same as being able to claim him for Protestantism.

Are there ways in which Roman Catholicism has moved past Augustine? Yes, that's also true. It's not clear to me that he would have articulated his belief in real presence in terms of transubstantiation. Likewise, it's unclear what he would have thought of the way the papacy continued to arrogate authority to itself more explicitly through the centuries.

He taught that their was no salvation outside of the visible Catholic Church; yet at the same time held that Donatist and Novation sacraments were valid. He also held that Donatist and Novation ordinations were valid, though schismatic, and therefore irregular.
I agree he taught the doctrine of a real presence; but it is not clear to me that he taught transubstantiation, as opposed to consubstantiation.
Maybe he would be closer to being a Jansenist then either Roman Catholic or Anglican or Lutheran.

That's not quite what Augustine taught. His views on heretical/schismatic baptism are the same as those embraced today by the Catholic Church. Donatist baptism was valid, but not efficacious. The sin of schism was a barrier preventing the grace of baptism from actually coming to the baptized person. Thus, it did not regenerate or remit sin. However, when the sin of schism was removed, so was the barrier, and the grace would instantly become efficacious. His early homilies on John address these issues.