What Day is the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'The Law of God' started by Scott Bushey, Apr 6, 2004.

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  1. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Previously posted in the "Favorite Lyrics thread by mjbee:



    "posted on 4-6-2004 at 04:31 PM

    "It just makes no sense to me. I just really wish the churches wouldn't refer to Sunday as the Sabbath. That really bothers me. I don't even care if they gather to worship on the 1st of the week. Calling it the Sabbath is what grates on my nerves, owing to my distinctively Jewish perspective, I suppose. "

    Scott asked in response:
    "Melissa, What day is the sabbath?"

    [quote:7bd93a032f]Scott, from a Scriptural perspective, what day is the Sabbath? This belongs in another thread, perhaps. And from a Jewish perspective there are more Sabbaths than the weekly one.[/quote:7bd93a032f]

    The sabbath that is mentioned in the decalogue (the 4th), what day is that?

    [quote:7bd93a032f]Remember, we don't start in the NT and read backwards. We start in the OT and read forward.[/quote:7bd93a032f]

    Melissa,
    Remember, I am a covenanter, we read the bible from front to back!

    [quote:7bd93a032f]By the way, don't you have a Jew in your congregation to explain these things to you?[/quote:7bd93a032f]

    My grandmother (Yetta Schwabbendorf) who lives across the street from me (and is 93 yrs young) would be offended by that remark!!!!:bisou:



    [quote:7bd93a032f]I didn't say it. Paul started it in Romans 1:16 and repeated it several times, in his writings and his actions. "For the Jew first." He preached in synagogues before he took the gospel to the Gentiles. There were Messianic Jews in the churches. Let me challenge all you pastors who post here....WHERE IS YOUR JEW? [/quote:7bd93a032f]

    I understand that the Gospel was preached in the synagogues (to the Jew first).....I don't quite follow your point.




    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Melissa Brown
    Evansville, Indiana
    Looking for a body of believers to hook up with
    "It is better to be divided by truth than to be united in error. It is better to speak the truth that hurts and heals, than falsehood that comforts and then kills. Let me tell you something, friend, it is not love and it is not friendship if we fail to declare the whole counsel of God. It is better to be hated for telling the truth, than to be loved for telling a lie. It is impossible to find anyone in the Bible who was a power for God who did not have enemies and was not hated. It's better to stand alone with the truth, than to be wrong with a multitude. It is better to ultimately succeed with the truth than to temporarily succeed with a lie. There is only one Gospel and Paul said, "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
    Pastor Adrian Rodgers, excerpts from talk, Nat'l Religious Broadcasters Convention, 1996



    [Edited on 4-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]
     
  2. Saiph

    Saiph Puritan Board Junior

    Every day is the Sabbath metaphorically.
    Sunday is the Sabbath covenentally.
    Saturday is the Sabbath historically.
    Christ is the Sabbath spiritually/typologically.

    [Edited on 4-6-2004 by Wintermute]
     
  3. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Mark,
    When you say "historically" it is Saturday, is this also "scripturally"?
     
  4. mjbee

    mjbee Puritan Board Freshman

    Scott, the Sabbath is, was and will always be the seventh day. There are other days mentioned in Lev 23 which are to be observed as Sabbaths, in addition to the weekly Sabbath, such as the first and seventh days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost (which falls on the 1st of the week), Trumpets/Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and the first and eighth days of Tabernacles. Surprisingly, Bikkurim (Lev 23:9-14), which is the day of Christ's resurrection and falls on the first of the week, is not a Sabbath!

    Any questions? I'm up for it.
    Bee (there is a reason somebody assigned me this nickname)
     
  5. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    [quote:faddccf025][i:faddccf025]Originally posted by mjbee[/i:faddccf025]
    Scott, the Sabbath is, was and will always be the seventh day. There are other days mentioned in Lev 23 which are to be observed as Sabbaths, in addition to the weekly Sabbath, such as the first and seventh days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost (which falls on the 1st of the week), Trumpets/Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and the first and eighth days of Tabernacles. Surprisingly, Bikkurim (Lev 23:9-14), which is the day of Christ's resurrection and falls on the first of the week, is not a Sabbath!

    Any questions? I'm up for it.
    Bee (there is a reason somebody assigned me this nickname) [/quote:faddccf025]


    What day is the seventh day?

    As for your title "bee", I guess your name is Deborah then as that is what Judge Deborah's name means, "bee".
     
  6. mjbee

    mjbee Puritan Board Freshman

    Scott, ask your grandmother which day is the 7th. And my name is Melissa. Look it up. It comes from a Greek root which means honey or honeybee. (It can also mean mucus. Yuk.) My initials are mjb. Hence mjbee. Hence Bee. I might like to claim Deborah as my namesake (her name means Bee also) but alas I can't do so honestly. The nickname fits me. I prefer to busy myself making life sweet for others. But I can deliver a painful sting.

    The seventh day (reckoning by the Jewish lunar calendar) is from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday. Sunset is when you can see the moon. Sun-worshipping was abominable. The Levitical feasts have to do with the moon, not the sun. Passover falls on the first full moon of spring. That was last evening. Shalom!
     
  7. mjbee

    mjbee Puritan Board Freshman

    By the way, Scott, if you're endeavoring to plant a Reformed church, maybe you could consider making it sabbatarian. Just a thought. And if you still want to argue about that Nazirite vow, let me know. :flamethrow:
    (I wanted smilies with boxing gloves.)
    Bee
     
  8. terry72

    terry72 Puritan Board Freshman

    I voted one day in seven...:)

    I agree with Calvin's exposition of the 4th commandment.


    Blessings,
    Terry :)
     
  9. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    [quote:eecb123d97][i:eecb123d97]Originally posted by mjbee[/i:eecb123d97]
    By the way, Scott, if you're endeavoring to plant a Reformed church, maybe you could consider making it sabbatarian. Just a thought. And if you still want to argue about that Nazirite vow, let me know. :flamethrow:
    (I wanted smilies with boxing gloves.)
    Bee [/quote:eecb123d97]

    Melissa,
    I do not need to argue about Christ being a Nazarite. Historical, biblical orthodoxy speaks for itself. You are alone on that one.................

    Spurgeon said:
    "I'd rather defend a roaring lion, the scriptures can defend themself".

    You say that the Sabbath is the 7th day. I agree! You say that the 7th day is Saturday. Please show me how you have come to this conclussion, using scripture.
     
  10. alwaysreforming

    alwaysreforming Puritan Board Sophomore

    The Bee

    Scott,
    I'd watch yourself if I were you. Melissa seems especially fiesty today!!! :biggrin:
     
  11. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    [quote:8c3b5e395a][i:8c3b5e395a]Originally posted by mjbee[/i:8c3b5e395a]
    The seventh day (reckoning by the Jewish lunar calendar) is from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday. Sunset is when you can see the moon. Sun-worshipping was abominable. The Levitical feasts have to do with the moon, not the sun. Passover falls on the first full moon of spring. That was last evening. Shalom! [/quote:8c3b5e395a]
    This is pure speculation and flawed at that. The pagans also worshipped the moon and stars.
     
  12. mjbee

    mjbee Puritan Board Freshman

    Christopher, I believe the correct spelling is feisty. "Full of spirit, lively, energetic, exuberant, or quarrelsome, aggressive, belligerent, etc." The dictionary forgot to mention contentious. You would rather live on the roof than cohabit with me. Especially when you don't agree with me. :bouncy:
    I have more fun trying to chase that bouncy and click on him!
    Bee

    Scott, I will deal with you later. But are you really saying that we can make our own Sabbath because the calendar might be wrong? According to whom? What is your point?
     
  13. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Lets see what the scriptures say:

    8 Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work--you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

    I don't see Saturday or Sunday mentioned here. I don't even see Monday????:idea2:
     
  14. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    What say the Confessions?

    It is pretty clear really:


    [u:931cad0d73]1689 Confession[/u:931cad0d73]
    22.7._____ As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.
    ( Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10 )



    [u:931cad0d73]WCF 21.7[/u:931cad0d73]
    VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him:(k) which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,(l) which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,(m) and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.(n)

    (k) Exod. 20:8, 10, 11; Isa. 56:2, 4, 6, 7.
    (l) Gen. 2:2, 3; I Cor. 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7.
    (m) Rev. 1:10.
    (n) Exod. 20:8, 10, with Matt. 5:17, 18.
     
  15. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Fred,
    Agreed! However, one would have a hard time in trying to justify the [i:dd7c88750b]changing of the guard[/i:dd7c88750b] without the precept that the sabbath is still the sabbath in that it is one day in seven; not Saturday or Sunday. The Jew says the sabbath is still saturday. The Messianic does too. The Arminian says "we are not under the law, but grace; my sabbath is tuesday!"

    The scripture does not show the change per se. The key idea is that 1 in seven is the sabbath. History shows that the sabbath was the 7th day and kept on saturday. Upon Christs resurrection, the day legally shifted to the 1st day of the week, which is the Lords day; again, 1 in seven. I believe this justifies the sabbatarian and the immutability of the moral law and removes the idea that there is seemingly a contradiction.

    My 2 cents.........
     
  16. Saiph

    Saiph Puritan Board Junior

    I'll accept that Fred.
     
  17. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Terry,

    I am not sure you would agree with Calvin.

    Calvin says the 4th commandment is to be spiritualized (why not the other 9 we will never know).

    Thus, for him, it meant people were to be in church every day, and were bound to hear preaching every night. This was his common practice in have Corrault and Farel and himself preach all through the week. if people did not show, then they were placed under church discipline. Funny thing is, many of them did. Calvin thought that the Sabbath was a spiritual ceasing from sin - THUS - everyday is the Sabbath, and it should be honored as such every day with church meetings. However, he did, quite inconsistently, say that it was most prudent to meet together as a whole body on the Lord's Day "just because" its convenient (sounds like circular arguing to me.)

    In terms of the Sabbath, you have two views held by the church (neither of which is held by Evangelicals today, and I am sure Terry, that you do not follow Calvin's Sabbath and are in church every night).

    View 1: The view of the confessions. The Sabbath commandment houses no DAY but a PATTERN that can be moved as god deems fit. No day was reckoned. Nowhere do we find that "Saturday" is the Sabbath. Rather, the pattern was founded at creation, and then started again when the Israelites were baptized in the Red Sea and came upon the wilder, the next day to have a Sabbath (see Exodus). We do not, then, have a problem with Sunday being the one in seven. The pattern is upheld, and the exegesis that is done on passages like Psalm 118, Acts 2 and Hebrews 4 (among other places) demonstrates the nature of the Sabbath is akin to the pattern (i.e. God worked and rested, so Christ works and rests - we follow that pattern fulfilled.)

    View 2: the View of Calvin. No one follows this. most of the time they "want to" but fail to see Calvin's application of his theology at this point. the reason people choose this one is that they do not want to be bound by a pattern, but rather feel liberty in choosing their own Day. Christ, then, is no longer Lord of the Day (i.e. the Sabbath) but man is. I do not know of anyone, anywhere who actually upholds this view to the letter that Calvin taught it. I always see people appealing to it in order to satisfy their own desire to chose when or where they would like to have a Sabbath day, and then when they do, I have again, never seen anyone take THE WHOLE DAY AS CALVIN DID to honor the day. What happens is that the Sabbath becomes "part of my day" and "part of my" schedule.

    Really, in the end, we either have the Confessional Sabbath (i.e. the Lord's Day pattern after Christ), or we have Calvin's view that is never, to my knowledge, actually upheld except by the Genevan council.

    In my opnion, a right understanding of the Lord's Day alone would silence every New Covenant "Theologian" out there forever. I have yet to see any of them interct with "Theses Sabbaticae" by Thomas Shepherd, or The Sabbath Defended, by Gillifan, or refute Edward's "The Perpetuity and Chagne of the Sabbath." Those works bury them in a heap of Sciptural exegesis that they cannot run from, but do anyway.

    melissa, you may also want to break out the whole "Jewish mindset" there. There is a place in exegetical work for taking into consideration the Jewish hertiage (which we shoudl all do) but quite another thing to stnad on heritage. I have seen a few places in yor posts that you seem to rest more on the heritage than on the Bible. It may be more helpful to read thorugh some exegetical work on the subject, and then refute that work by bnetter exegetical work if yout hink the Jews are right and the apsotles were wrong (I say that tongue in cheek - I think both Peter and Paul, and Jesus, are quite clear about the Sabbath and how teh OT and NT fit and are fulfilled. Exegetical work, I think, proves that out.)
     
  18. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura Puritan Board Doctor

    Gasp!
    :scared:

    Matt.... did you just dare to imply that Calvin may have actually been... WRONG... about something? :hobbyhorse:
     
  19. sundoulos

    sundoulos Puritan Board Freshman

    Does a Jew in Japan celebrate the Sabbath on Friday?
     
  20. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    [quote:7fbe9bcd26]
    Matt.... did you just dare to imply that Calvin may have actually been... WRONG... about something?
    [/quote:7fbe9bcd26]

    Oh yes. He was quite wrong on that issue. He was so zealous to uphold Christ's sacrifice, and to press the Christian's struggle with sin onto a spiritual plane, that he spiritualized the 4th commandment compeltely where there is no warrant to do that at all.

    Our word for the day, boys and girls, is "inconsistent." Can you say "inconsistent?"

    Boys and girls: [children's voices stressing syllables] In-con-sis-tent.

    I knew you could....!
     
  21. JohnV

    JohnV Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Who knows about the Jewish calendar? I seem to recall that they sometimes had an extra month. Is that so? And since they counted their months strictly by the moon, and the phases of the moon is not exactly 28 days, wouldn't they eventually lose track of which day is actually the day evenly divisible by seven which would define the exact seventh day according to the creation? Does anyone have the scoop on that?
     
  22. JWJ

    JWJ Puritan Board Freshman

     
  23. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    [img:1afc2196ba]http://www.semperreformanda.com/images/dancer.gif[/img:1afc2196ba]
     
  24. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    As a former RC I still get nervous when the church uses it's authority to go beyond the clear teaching of scripture. The church was wrong to exalt and venerate Mary. It was arrogant and blashemous to start instituting the use of idols in worship - both of these infractions against the second commandment.

    The church was wrong in restricting pastors from marriage. It makes a mockery of the sanctity of marriage through the annulment process. It overturned justification by faith through its sacerdotal system. In history the church has stood 180 degrees out of phase with most of the commandments and foundational doctrines.

    It doesn't surprise me that in it's arrogance it overturned the Sabbath by changing the day. It's not even a 4th commandment issue. The 4th commandment tells us to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. The Sabbath is a creation ordinance. It was declared holy at creation and I don't recognize anyone in the church with enough authority to overturn a creation ordinance. Only Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, could have done it and he didn't.

    It's dangerous to let an intrinsic interpretation of scripture overturn the extrinsic teaching of scripture.

    Here's what the sabbath means to me:
    It is a great gift from God, for man was not made for the sabbath but the sabbath for man. The sabbath removes any excuse for not having time to read and study the scriptures, it removes the excuse that there is not enough time for prayer and fellowship with God and his people. God has given us this day to do those very things - an entire day to be restored spiritually and physically.

    On Friday evening we often get together with friends and eat and visit and speak of the scriptures. Saturday I relax, I read my Bible and whatever book I find edifying. We go for walks or hikes and we visit with friends.

    I would not give this gift/day up for anyone. As soon as someone declares what OUGHT or OUGHT NOT be done on the sabbath they prove they have missed the whole point of it. The sabbath is a very different matter to the pharasee.

    On Sunday, I go to public worship. For young parents, this day is usually anything but restful and so I appreciate that public worship is not on the sabbath. Most sabbaterians will disagree with me on that point and I certainly understand.

    The sabbath is the seventh day. The scriptures don't allow for a fracturing of the sabbath - there is no Jewish sabbath and Christian sabbath.

    I am surprised that my reformed friends who have taught me so much about sola scriptura and regulative principle so quickly drop the ball regarding sabbath observance.

    It's a secondary issue however and not a reason for breaking fellowship. I'll go to church where I can hear sound preaching and the worship is God centered.:wr50:
     
  25. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    Take heart mjbee!
    God has hidden 7000 just like us in a cave. :p



    Nice to hear from you jwj!
     
  26. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Bob,
    You do agree that the scriptures do not support a specific day [ in name].

    What do you say in regards to my proposition?
     
  27. kceaster

    kceaster Puritan Board Junior

    I'm confused folks...

    I voted the 1st day, but I also believe in the 1 day in 7 principle. Are these views opposing?

    The basis for my understanding is that the Sabbath from creation to Christ was the 7th day (still with a 1 in 7 principle) and after Christ's resurrection (Creation reborn) it changed to the 1st day.

    Am I wacky?

    Also, for Melissa. I had read that the priests would determine the first Sabbath of the month by going 7 days from the new moon. If it were cloudy and they could not see it, they would wait until they could see it, try to calculate when it had become new, then hold the Sabbath as close to 7 days after the new moon. Then, they would count 7's after that.

    If this is true, then it's a good bet that the Sabbath was not always on Saturday.

    Also, was the first Sabbath held on a Saturday?

    In Christ,

    KC
     
  28. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    Scott,
    of course your proposition is correct. You are too thorough of a scholar to propose something unless you were sure to begin with.

    Scripture does not name the day. So we then turn to history as we do with the canon. Scripture doesn't mention the day because until 321 AD it wasn't necessary to mention it. Then Constantine, still a Sun-worshipping pagan made the shift.

    "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."

    The rest seems to be a product of prejudice. The Council of Laodicea (who sealed the canon) also declared,

    "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." So by declaring against a Saturday sabbath, the church also admits that the historic day of the sabbath is Saturday.

    Most languages refer to the seventh day of the week by a word which is some derivation of 'sabbath', for example, in spanish - 'sabado'.

    But your proposition is correct.
     
  29. raderag

    raderag Puritan Board Sophomore

    [quote:b3fb6eacf3][i:b3fb6eacf3]Originally posted by maxdetail[/i:b3fb6eacf3]
    Then Constantine, still a Sun-worshipping pagan made the shift.
    [/quote:b3fb6eacf3]

    Hmmmm.... Have you read any of the ante-Nicean Fathers on this issue? My survey of them has taught me that they held the Christian Sabbath was on Sunday. Constitine institued what had already been practiced.
     
  30. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    [quote:325e0fb6c6][i:325e0fb6c6]Originally posted by raderag[/i:325e0fb6c6]
    [quote:325e0fb6c6][i:325e0fb6c6]Originally posted by maxdetail[/i:325e0fb6c6]
    Then Constantine, still a Sun-worshipping pagan made the shift.
    [/quote:325e0fb6c6]

    Hmmmm.... Have you read any of the ante-Nicean Fathers on this issue? My survey of them has taught me that they held the Christian Sabbath was on Sunday. Constitine institued what had already been practiced. [/quote:325e0fb6c6]

    It would also be curious to the apostles, who gathered together consistently for worship on the first day of the week (Sunday):

    [quote:325e0fb6c6]
    John 20:1 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

    John 20:19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you."

    Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

    1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. [/quote:325e0fb6c6]
     
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