What do y'all make of these "Eucharistic miracles" associated with the Catholic Church

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BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
You'll have to define supernatural. Are demons supernatural beings?
Take it a step further: what is natural? A lot of conservatives agree with Hume on what constitutes natural (and no violations of it, mind you).

When we talk about "nature," do we have in mind the Newtonian mechanistic worldview or the take of Einstein, Heisenberg, etc.?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
For those who doubt that such "miracles" could be done in the context of a false religion, how do you explain the coming of the Man of Sin and Son of Perdition being "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders?"
O would agree that the Devil can do "false miracles", and can do deceiving acts in the occult, but that there would not be any Miracles being done in the Church of Rome that would be the same class as done by Jesus and his Apostles, as the Holy Spirit cannot condone false theology and a false Gospel message.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Supernatural beings, such as Angels and Demons do exist and operate on different levels of reality than us in flesh and blood bodies though.
That's not what I am saying (though I agree with the proposition). The supernatural doesn't exist independent of God's will.
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
Doctrine of Providence. God allows stuff to happen. The "supernatural" isn't a force independent of God.
So for instance are you suggesting these supernatural beings can and move natural objects around naturally that we can see, and are sent by God to do such?
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
You'll have to define supernatural. Are demons supernatural beings?
Satan is a beings who is active though the only thing we see is the result of the work he has done in the garden in my opinion. So I can say with no qualification that because of the fall that I am responsible %100 for all of my sin as James says specifically.....
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed".....To think satan sits on a persons shoulder like some kind of imp whispering in their ear is simply superstitious.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
So for instance are you suggesting these supernatural beings can and move natural objects around naturally that we can see, and are sent by God to do such?
God can cause people to experience a delusion, yes. He also sent "supernatural beings" to delude others.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
0 The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
0 The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”
So we have a deceiving spirit somehow causing a prophet directly to speak? How exactly does this happen? Mind manipulation, whispering a suggestion into the ear, or some other way? I ask because I am curious how exactly this happens in your opinion. :)
 

PuritanCovenanter

Moderator
Staff member
(Deu 13:1) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
(Deu 13:2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
(Deu 13:3) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deu 13:4) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
(Deu 13:5) And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
(Deu 13:6) If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
(Deu 13:7) Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
(Deu 13:8) Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
So we have a deceiving spirit somehow causing a prophet directly to speak? How exactly does this happen? Mind manipulation, whispering a suggestion into the ear, or some other way? I ask because I am curious how exactly this happens in your opinion. :)
Yahweh didn't go into detail.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Oh I agree. :) Though if one attempts to answering my questions I asked one would see the folly in thinking in superstitious a manner.
I was simply referencing the Bible. I hope that isn't superstitious. For the record I think the OP is a hoax. Folk Catholicism is superstitious..
 

TylerRay

Puritan Board Graduate
Earl, how do you explain the acts done by Pharaoh's magicians, such as turning staves into snakes, or turning waters into blood (Ex. 7)?
 

TylerRay

Puritan Board Graduate
Have you ever seen Penn and Teller? :)
No, sir, but I've read the Bible:
Exdodus 7 & 8:
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
19 And the Lord spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.

20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

21 And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.

22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the Lord had said.
5 And the Lord spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.

6 And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.

7 And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
I was simply referencing the Bible. I hope that isn't superstitious. For the record I think the OP is a hoax. Folk Catholicism is superstitious..
I understand, though I doubt we agree on the mode in how God put words into the false prophets mouths. Not to say I know but what I do hold to rather dogmatically is that it was not by a small devil sitting on the shoulder or any type of whispering suggestion into the ear or mind.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
dogmatically is that it was not by a small devil sitting on the shoulder or any type of whispering suggestion into the ear or mind
I'm fairly certain no one here holds that view, though Jesus does use that language from time to time (Satan entered your heart, etc)
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
I'm fairly certain no one here holds that view, though Jesus does use that language from time to time (Satan entered your heart, etc)
I wish you were correct but I strongly suspect many think satan literally whispers or plants suggestion into peoples minds.
 

TylerRay

Puritan Board Graduate
Just to let you to know I have read this many times. :) We simply disagree in what kind of power Satan has along with his angels, which includes humans.
Calvin on 2 Thessalonians 2:
He gives the name of miracles of falsehood, not merely to such as are falsely and deceptively contrived by cunning men with a view to impose upon the simple -- a kind of deception with which all Papacy abounds, for they are a part of his power which he has previously touched upon; but takes falsehood as consisting in this, that Satan draws to a contrary end works which otherwise are truly works of God, and abuses miracles so as to obscure God's glory. In the mean time, however, there can be no doubt, that he deceives by means of enchantments--an example of which we have in Pharaoh's magicians.
On Exodus 7 & 8:
[Paul] says, indeed, that the coming of Antichrist shall be with signs and lying wonders, but by adding the word "power," he shews that the deception or illusion shall not consist so much in the external form of things, as in the perverse abuse of signs. Therefore Christ absolutely pronounces that "false prophets shall shew great signs and wonders." (Matthew 24:24.) It might be, then, that God in just vengeance might choose the rods of the magicians to be changed into serpents; as we shall hereafter see that the waters were changed by their enchantments into blood, that the earth was covered with frogs and lice, that the fields were smitten with hail, and the atmosphere darkened. [82] Still we must be assured, that not even a fly can be created except by God only; but that Satan lays hold, for the purpose of his impostures, of things which are done by the secret judgment of God.
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
Calvin on 2 Thessalonians 2:He gives the name of miracles of falsehood, not merely to such as are falsely and deceptively contrived by cunning men with a view to impose upon the simple -- a kind of deception with which all Papacy abounds, for they are a part of his power which he has previously touched upon; but takes falsehood as consisting in this, that Satan draws to a contrary end works which otherwise are truly works of God, and abuses miracles so as to obscure God's glory. In the mean time, however, there can be no doubt, that he deceives by means of enchantments--an example of which we have in Pharaoh's magicians.
Oh I agree Pharaoh's magicians deceived many into thinking they could duplicate what God did. Be not be "enhanced" into thinking such. :)
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Oh I agree Pharaoh's magicians deceived many into thinking they could duplicate what God did. Be not be "enhanced" into thinking such. :)
So was it just sleight of hand? Did they pull a cobra out of their robe? That's not how the narrative reads.
 

Contra_Mundum

Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Staff member
I think the mechanism of those majicks (be it natural, or supernatural) is deliberately left in the shadows. It is arcane, and forbidden. Part of what we are called to draw back from (religiously, I mean; fooling the eye for entertainment is innocuous) is vain curiosity.

I'm content to know that Satan was on the side of the Egyptians; and whether they trick to deceive (Is.25:11) or rely on a preternatural supply (a promise to the conjuror that eventually proves deceitful to him), the business is lying and from the darkness.
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
So was it just sleight of hand? Did they pull a cobra out of their robe? That's not how the narrative reads.
I hear you and understand what you are saying. That is exactly how many read such and assume that they (the magicians) can do what God does.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Oh I agree Pharaoh's magicians deceived many into thinking they could duplicate what God did. Be not be "enhanced" into thinking such. :)
The text though seems to indicate that the magicians did use power of Satan, magic, to do something in a real physical sense.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Just to let you to know I have read this many times. :) We simply disagree in what kind of power Satan has along with his angels, which includes humans.
Satan still wields that great power bestowed upon Him by God at his creation though.
 
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