What do you think of Packer's quote?

Discussion in 'Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church' started by TrustGzus, Jul 21, 2015.

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  1. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    I simply quoted the confession to remind ourselves of what we all agree the word 'preach' means. Invariably, these discussions go nowhere because of equivocation on the word 'preach'. Since we are a Reformed discussion board we ought to discuss things, as much as possible, using Reformed definitions. When we discuss things with non-confessional people we might, of course, use the word 'preach' in many different ways, but here we should stick to the confessional definition.
  2. timmopussycat

    timmopussycat Puritan Board Junior

    As one of his former students, I think I can correctly speak for his views at the time I studied with him a couple of decades after he wrote E&SoG. He then definitely did NOT believe that all Christians are tasked in spreading the gospel in the same way as ministers. If he had he never would have accepted a position at Vancouver's Regent College which is institutionally committed to the contrary.
  3. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I stand corrected. May I assume then that Pastor Packer would not endorse Evangelism Explosion?
  4. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Of course you cited the London Baptist Confession which is not the same as the WCF on the point being discussed. Of course you may realize this and one can argue which is more biblical concerning what is preaching and evangelism.
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    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

  6. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable


    Note that Ken was responding to Chris, who is covenanted with CBF, a group that affirms the LBCF, so how is his use of the LBCF implying the coyness you imply?
  7. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    Westminster Larger Catechism:

    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
  8. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    So reformed baptist hold to the 3 forms also? I ask because I did not know this. If so can I expect only a teaching elder to preach the sermon in a reformed baptist church, unless circumstances arose for a ruling elder to fill in when a TE is unavailable? That is why I asked what "others" are. :)
  9. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I meant no coyness but maybe came across as such from ignorance. If so I apologize and the above post with my questions should clear up my ignorance.
  10. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I think this is the minority viewpoint in the OPC, right? I know it is in the PCA churches I have attended though they are few. :)
  11. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    First question: No. The Westminster Larger Catechism is part of the Westminster Standards. The Three Forms of Unity are different but some Reformed Presbyterians to them. The only reason I referenced the Larger Catechism was to show that all of the Reformed used the word 'preach' in a certain way.

    Second question: Not exactly. Reformed Baptists, as LBC 26:11 states, believe that it is incumbent on ministers to preach, but others who are approved and called by the church may also preach.

    But, this is getting off topic. I was simply trying to aid the discussion by defining our terms here on PB.
  12. timmopussycat

    timmopussycat Puritan Board Junior

    I don't know his stand and I don't know EE well enough to risk an informed guess.
  13. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    So can we agree that there would be a difference between a Reformed Baptist and a Reformed Presbyterian thinking concerning who should be approved to preach and evangelize. Of course I use the word preach as what pastors do on Sunday and also by preaching they are officially evangelizing those in attendance. I think as you point out it comes down to what preaching and evangelicalism are and also In my most humble opinion there is a difference in the confessions and the thinking within the LBCF and the WCF.
  14. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Well if what I read about Pastor Packer here as being true and his holding of the proper roles and offices in the church I know enough about EE to say he would not approve of EE. :)
  15. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    Not only would there be a difference between Baptists and Presbyterians but between individual churches within the two as well.
  16. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Indeed, I see that also. :)
  17. Reformed Roman

    Reformed Roman Puritan Board Freshman

    I'm late to the party but I think we all know that we are all called to be a witness to the gospel. It's sad that we pay people to go out of the nation to give the gospel and we refuse to go ourselves to give the gospel. You can talk about preaching and exposition, but there is no biblical question that we are all called to give the gospel to people.

    Truth be told I'm introverted. Very introverted. I have used that as an excuse many times. Our world is full of dying people, and I ignore that many days. I firmly believe that many of us who are introverted won't and shouldn't be expected to walk up to random people giving the gospel all the time. I don't even naturally know how to start random conversation well... But it's easy to hide behind that.....

    I've tried to find out of the box ways to give the gospel to people and get out of my comfort zone... It's hard but I know I am called to share the gospel.

    All things should be taken in scriptural balance. But I think we who are introverted people should examine what things we can do to share the gospel in our daily lives.

    And I think it's really obvious that Packer is just sharing our responsibility to share the gospel. I love the intellectual conversation but I think it can distract us from the fact that we should all be on mission for God. That doesn't mean we are going to be on the streets every day. But on our jobs, day to day lives, we should seek opportunities to share the gospel with life and lips
  18. johnny

    johnny Puritan Board Sophomore

    I asked this question before, and I may be off point here.

    But I still do not see many trained evangelists,
    (Those chosen by God who have been through seminary)
    out on street corners preaching the gospel.
  19. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    They served with the apostles and expired when there were no apostles to appoint them. With the power to ordain elders a continuing office of evangelist would require the church to recognise bishops as a superior order over the ordinary ministry. As it is, they were out of the ordinary, which means the regular form of church government is presbyterian.
  20. timmopussycat

    timmopussycat Puritan Board Junior

    If an an Ephesians 4 gift to the church requires apostolic appointment, and there are no apostles today to appoint such, the necessary consequence is that all pastors and teachers in Christ's church are illegitimate.

    And one should also note that Presbyterians have recognized on occasion that God has apparently called someone to that office Cf the Free Church of Scotland's 1859 ordination of layman Brownlow North.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  21. Reformed Roman

    Reformed Roman Puritan Board Freshman

    Why is evangelizing an office if everyone is called to do it? Furthermore everyone is called to proclaim the gospel. I'm not saying you will directly go to a street corner and proclaim the gospel, but everyone is called to proclaim. Those of us who are a little less introverted don't need to be confirmed to go proclaim the gospel. I don't need to be confirmed to share it quietly, why would I need elders to appoint me to proclaim it loudly? Those type of reactions sounds like ways to avoid witnessing, all introverts have to fight to love people and share the gospel, even if some do it in different ways
  22. Ken

    Ken Puritan Board Freshman


    God bless you and keep you,
  23. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member


    This discussion has veered somewhat from the issue of introversion. The Reformers viewed Eph 4:11 as a list of official church offices, all of which, except for 'pastor' and perhaps 'teacher' expired with the dawning of the NT age. Many today also use the word 'evangelist' to refer to someone who is good at sharing the gospel in general as you describe. You kind of have to 'know your audience' around here whenever that word comes up.
  24. Alan D. Strange

    Alan D. Strange Puritan Board Junior

    There are differing views of "evangelist" as to office/function, with some historic Presbyterian churches seeing this as a continuing aspect of the office of minister, along with pastor and teacher. It is most common, on this view, to see that function as expressed in those called to be missionaries, home or foreign. Some Reformed see this in a similar vein. There has not been a monolithic view on this in the Reformed and Presbyterian world.

    For the view of this, for example, in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, see here: http://www.opc.org/BCO/FG.html#Chapter_VII.

  25. Ken

    Ken Puritan Board Freshman

    Does the expiration of what Jesus gave us mean the saints are no longer perfected for ministry? The body of Christ is no longer edified, that we all have come into the unity of faith?

    If these offices no longer exist are we no longer children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sight of men, and cunning craftiness?

    Today, is all we need pastors and teachers to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love?

    God bless you and keep you,
  26. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Just a note:

    John Owen's teaching on this (that evangelists have ceased) in volume 4 of his works concerning the Holy Spirit (i.e. the Puritan View).

    "Secondly, They were such as consisted in extraordinary endowments and improvements of the faculties of the souls or minds of men; such as wisdom, knowledge, utterance, and the like. Now, where these were bestowed on any in an extraordinary manner, as they were on the apostles and evangelists, they differed only in degree from them that are ordinary and still continued, but are of the same kind with them; whereof we shall treat afterward...With respect unto these ends, extraordinary officers, with extraordinary authority, power, and abilities, were requisite. Unto this end, therefore, he “gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists;” of the nature of whose offices and their gifts we have spoken before. I shall here only add, that it was necessary that these officers should have their immediate call and authority from Christ, antecedent unto all order and power in the church, for the very being of the church depended on their power of office. But this, without such an immediate power from Christ, no man can pretend unto." See Owen's Works, Volume 4 - chapters 4-6.

    It was also Calvin's view (the Reformation) to a great extent. "...those whom, while inferior in rank to the apostles, were next them in office, and even acted as their substitutes" (Institutes, 4.3.4). "Those three functions were not instituted in the church to be perpetual, but only endure so long as churches were to be formed where none previously existed..."

    (It seems a bit monolithic?)
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  27. Ken

    Ken Puritan Board Freshman

    What does this look like today, in real life, considering what Paul said these people were given for in Ephesians 4:12-16?

    God bless you and keep you,
  28. Aaron637

    Aaron637 Puritan Board Freshman

    Luke 9
    49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”

    50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us[c] is on our side.”

    Pastors should equip and teach the laity to p preach the gospel to the world. The gospel isnt difficult. This isnt catholicism where priests have a monopoly on grace.
  29. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    A non sequitur. Pastors and teachers are ordained in an ordinary way with the call of the people.

    It was noted as an innovation and a peculiarity, and it created dissension. The Form of Church Government clearly states evangelists were extraordinary and have ceased. Besides, the term "Lay" distinguishes it from the biblical office.
  30. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    Along with the HS and the Word of God, yes.

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