What gives you the right to kill someone, kidnap them, or steal from them?

[RamistThomist]

I am, of course, referring to "capital punishment, imprisonment, and taxation." When is punishment criminal?

 

[Peter]

popular approval? 51% of the vote? Social contract? Delegation from God?

Here's a relevant passage from Abraham Kuyper

Authority over men cannot arise from men. Just as little from a majority over against a minority, for history shows, almost every page, that very often the minority was right. And thus to the 1st Calvinistic thesis that sin alone has necessitated the institution of governments, this 2nd and no less momentus thesis is added that: all authority of gov'ts on earth originates from the Sovereignty of God alone. When God says to me, obey, then I humbly bow my head, without compromising in the least my personal dignity, as a man. For in like proportion you degrade yourself, by bowing low to a child of man, whose breath is in his nostrils; so, on the other hand do you raise yourself if you submit to the Lord of Heaven and Earth

 

[SRoper]

I don't want to get off topic, but you see taxation as punitive? Wouldn't it be make more sense to say "capital punishment, imprisonment, and fines"?

 

[Peter]

I don't think taxation is punitive but like the death penalty and imprisonment it's a special privledge of a distinct class. There appears to be two laws in society. The first law for private citizens forbids them from violating the rights of others to life, happiness and the goods necessary to achieve it. The 2nd law for public officials in their public capacity allows them to steal, kidnap and kill others. And you need permission from those under the 2nd law to call their conduct into question, and of course they are also the arbitrators of their own trials.

 

[turmeric]

Romans 13 gives the right to whomever God has appointed "for this very thing". Our extremely flawed election process is a secondary cause, but it is still God who raises up rulers and puts them down. I was reminded of that, and prayed accordingly during the "chad" debacle of 2000.

 

[VictorBravo]

Originally posted by SRoper
I don't want to get off topic, but you see taxation as punitive? Wouldn't it be make more sense to say "capital punishment, imprisonment, and fines"?

Scott, I don't think punitive is the common element in the list. Rather, Jacob is talking about things that would be crimes if you or I did them (kill, take, kidnap, etc.). The point is, what makes them not crimes if done in the name of the State?

Capital punishment is easy. It is mandated to a civil authority. The others are more difficult.

Taxation as theft, for instance, raises interesting thoughts. Theft is defined traditionally as "the unauthorized taking of property belonging to another." The key elements are "authorized" and "belonging".

In some tax systems, the assumption is that everything belongs to the state. In that scenario, the state has the authority to confiscate any portion of it it wants (This is often the approach under monarchy). Another theory focuses on "authorization". That view asserts power over the individual himself, not just the property. In either case, the charge of theft is avoided by defining the power of the government as to make it legal. The question Jacob asks is whether this is truly legal, and if so, on what theory.

I wrestle with this a lot. I don't think the income tax is morally justified, but I pay it, primarily because of Matt. 22:21. That doesn't stop me from working to get rid of it.

 

[RamistThomist]

Vic sees where I am going with this. I am still gathering my thoughts for this thread.

 

[SRoper]

I guess I was thrown off by the sentence "When is punishment criminal?" Carry on.

 

[SRoper]

Whose face is printed on our dollar bill?

 

[RamistThomist]

Clinton's? He can have the worthless piece of paper. Not like it has any value. When Empress Hillary rises to the throne she will take them all anyway.

I was originally asking a meta-ethical question. I was fleshing moral judgments and the justificatiokn of crucial moral terms.