What, if anything, should the state do about heresy?

[Dachaser]

Exactly! Most people in the federal government or in state governments wouldn't know a Bible if they tripped over one. I'm already laughing at the idea of Donald Trump or Nancy Pelosi or some useless Congresscritter fulminating against heretics. What a joke!

Government - stay away!

You make a very valid point here, as the rules and laws would not be made from a distinctly Christian worldview probably.

 

[Dachaser]

It is not a question of simply giving the state more power. Rather, the discussion centres on how far godly government is to be pursued.

The basic principle is very straightforward: if the magistrate is a Christian, then he should act in the interests of Christians. (It gets more difficult after that, as has been pointed out. To what actual extent is the magistrate to be involved in matters concerning Christ's church?) Naturally, this is at odds with modern ideas of toleration.

What if we are under a Republic, Democracy, despot et all though?

 

[Dachaser]

Good thoughts. I think we need to distinguish between the most prudent courses a voting citizen or lesser magistrate may take in an effectively heathen nation to preserve the liberty of true worship from the unbending responsibility of a government before the Law of God.

In the US, the ability for the magistrate (even the President) to punish heresy is minimal and would require a Constitutional amendment to enable which could not happen absent a massive national revival--something we can certainly pray for but which does not appear to be happening at present. Therefore, citizens and magistrates must seek to protect the church, as the US revisions say, and if some believe that it's through a modified libertarianism, that's a matter of prudence and not dogma. The Scriptures do not indicate that Joseph or Daniel attempted or were to attempt prosecution of heathens in (civic) rebellion against their superiors from their positions in foreign kingdoms.

When a nation is governed by Christians who have the ability to determine the laws of the land, however, I do not see how one could escape the conclusions of the original Westminster confession. Heresy is not merely an ecclesial issue, it is rot and moth to the fabric of society. Does rampant theft harm a nation? Heresy does more. Does dishonesty harm a nation? Heresy does more. If, according to Paul, a magistrate in his proper role is a revenger to execute wrath on him that doeth evil, is that to except the false prophets of heresy and peddlers of idols? Even in the US we at least had laws to prosecute violations of part of the first table in the Sabbath laws at one point.

Would the Christian policy then allow for a freedom religion, so that there would be Reformed, Charismatic, Baptist, Dispensational, old earth, new earth etc?

 

[RamistThomist]

Would the Christian policy then allow for a freedom religion, so that there would be Reformed, Charismatic, Baptist, Dispensational, old earth, new earth etc?

Depends. Old School Covenanters would probably prosecute anyone who didn't hold to the Solemn League and Covenants. Most, however, don't take that line.

Gary North suggested something along the lines of an Athanasian Pluralism. I have a blog post on it that I will try to find later.

 

[Dachaser]

The Lord and civil government would be established and set up to maintain the order as in law and order, but not necessarily be involved in whose religion would be emphasized and enforced!

 

[RamistThomist]

The Lord and civil government would be established and set up to maintain the order as in law and order, but not necessarily be involved in whose religion would be emphasized and enforced!

Should the civil govt curb the religious views of the Church of Satan?

I happen to believe that Hollywood is a blood cult that has paedophilia as a sacrament. For all practical purposes it is a ritual. I believe a godly govt should bring maximum sanctions against most directors.

 

[Tom Hart]

What if we are under a Republic, Democracy, despot et all though?

Obviously, we cannot expect a godless government to uphold God's law. They are not exempted from it, of course, being, along with everyone else, bound to obey it. So we do not expect a Nero to act in a godly manner.

We are speaking of ideals, what is right before God. And what is right is that men obey him.

Also, the type of government is not really at issue here. It is conceivable to have a Christian republic, aristocracy, monarchy, etc.

 

[Tom Hart]

The Lord and civil government would be established and set up to maintain the order as in law and order, but not necessarily be involved in whose religion would be emphasized and enforced!

I'm not quite sure what is meant by this

 

[Pergamum]

So where does this leave me as a baptist? I would like the State to disallow Muslim immigrants from the US (their views are incompatible with American freedom if they are consistent in the least), but in the past the State has also persecuted "errant" Christians as well, such as Zwingli's drowning of the Anabaptists. There is no guarantee that once the cork is unplugged and the genie is out of that bottle that those in office will not expand the definition of "heresy" to include other Christians.

 

[RamistThomist]

So where does this leave me as a baptist? I would like the State to disallow Muslim immigrants from the US (their views are incompatible with American freedom if they are consistent in the least), but in the past the State has also persecuted "errant" Christians as well, such as Zwingli's drowning of the Anabaptists. There is no guarantee that once the cork is unplugged and the genie is out of that bottle that those in office will not expand the definition of "heresy" to include other Christians.

Also think realistically: Baptists are the largest Protestant denomination. I doubt some small paedobaptist groups will ever take the govt and start persecuting Baptists.

 

[earl40]

So where does this leave me as a baptist?

I doubt you would have been a Baptist during the reformation in that the Anabaptists probably held to many distinctive tenants you do not hold on to today.

 

[Parakaleo]

There is no guarantee that once the cork is unplugged and the genie is out of that bottle that those in office will not expand the definition of "heresy" to include other Christians.

There's no guarantee no matter what. The cork is already unplugged, it just so happens that the god currently worshipped by most secular states is satisfied with the blood of preborn infants (for now). As believers, we must be consistent enough to say to our government that Christ's religion and his laws are best for them, and not just in their private lives but also in their official capacities.

 

[Tom Hart]

As believers, we must be consistent enough to say to our government that Christ's religion and his laws are best for them, and not just in their private lives but also in their official capacities.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Parakaleo]

Roger Williams is sometimes held up as a hero of religious freedom by Baptists. I would submit the following quote of his for consideration:

Let every man speak freely without fear--maintain the principles that he believes--worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse or loss of property for his religious opinions.

It's stunning to me that so many Baptists (and even some Presbyterians) can look at that statement and say "amen", while I see a policy that is contrary to the law and detestable in the sight of the Lord.

 

[RamistThomist]

Here are some musings I did onhow to have a godly society without religiously cleansing all the Baptists in the world.
https://negatingthevoid.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/politics-as-athanasian-pluralism/

 

[Dachaser]

Should the civil govt curb the religious views of the Church of Satan?

I happen to believe that Hollywood is a blood cult that has paedophilia as a sacrament. For all practical purposes it is a ritual. I believe a godly govt should bring maximum sanctions against most directors.

Depends on if we are a republic, a Democracy, or what, as the Lord does allow for sinners to have whatever wrong theology they have, as long as it does not involve breaking the law. For example, I could practice Voodo in my house, but If I was to start killing off animals and people to do my rites, that makes it illegal activity.

 

[Dachaser]

I'm not quite sure what is meant by this

Until the time of the Second Coming, God has established civil government as mainly to keep the peace, protect its citizens, and to enforce that law and order is kept. There is however no national government that is mandated to strictly keep "Christian Laws" at this time.

 

[Dachaser]

So where does this leave me as a baptist? I would like the State to disallow Muslim immigrants from the US (their views are incompatible with American freedom if they are consistent in the least), but in the past the State has also persecuted "errant" Christians as well, such as Zwingli's drowning of the Anabaptists. There is no guarantee that once the cork is unplugged and the genie is out of that bottle that those in office will not expand the definition of "heresy" to include other Christians.

I am also a Baptist, and do value each person, regardless if saved or not, as the right to exercise and practice their own views as long as it is not done in illegal fashion.

 

[Parakaleo]

For example, I could practice Voodo in my house, but If I was to start killing off animals and people to do my rites, that makes it illegal activity.

I see this as similar to adopting a policy in my house that my children can pray to whatever god they want in the privacy of their rooms, but must only pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in my hearing.

Let me ask you this as a follow-up: Should it be legal or not for a person to post a video to YouTube explaining the truth and virtues of the Voodoo religion?

 

[Dachaser]

Roger Williams is sometimes held up as a hero of religious freedom by Baptists. I would submit the following quote of his for consideration:



It's stunning to me that so many Baptists (and even some Presbyterians) can look at that statement and say "amen", while I see a policy that is contrary to the law and detestable in the sight of the Lord.

God allows for that until the Second Advent of Jesus Christ.

 

[Parakaleo]

the right to exercise and practice their own views

The problem here is that you seem to think governments have the ability to create a right out of thin air, despite God forbidding all men everywhere from practicing idolatry or breaking the Sabbath.

 

[RamistThomist]

Depends on if we are a republic, a Democracy, or what, as the Lord does allow for sinners to have whatever wrong theology they have, as long as it does not involve breaking the law.

That has nothing to do with the mode of govt. Monarchs, too, follow laws. We have a tendency to read Louis XIV back into all forms of monarchy. The only people who don't follow the laws are the traitors in the deep state.

For example, I could practice Voodo in my house, but If I was to start killing off animals and people to do my rites, that makes it illegal activity

If someone is practicing Voodoo in his basement (by the way, I have evangelized students who were looking into Voodoo), then no one will know. But that's true of most crimes, so it is irrelevant.

 

[RamistThomist]

God allows for that until the Second Advent of Jesus Christ.

In logic that is called an assertion, not an argument.

 

[Dachaser]

The problem here is that you seem to think governments have the ability to create a right out of thin air, despite God forbidding all men everywhere from practicing idolatry or breaking the Sabbath.

God however does not place prohibition on secular governments, as that will be fully instituted at the time of the return of Christ.

 

[RamistThomist]

I am also a Baptist, and do value each person, regardless if saved or not, as the right to exercise and practice their own views as long as it is not done in illegal fashion.

Fair enough. I pass a law making going to a Baptist church illegal. You have the right to practice your religion privately.

That's more or less what the Soviets did. They allowed religious gatherings but you couldn't evangelize.

 

[Dachaser]

I see this as similar to adopting a policy in my house that my children can pray to whatever god they want in the privacy of their rooms, but must only pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in my hearing.

Let me ask you this as a follow-up: Should it be legal or not for a person to post a video to YouTube explaining the truth and virtues of the Voodoo religion?

In the type of republic that USA is established to be, yes.

 

[Dachaser]

In logic that is called an assertion, not an argument.

There will be no Theonomy form of government established by God until the time of the Second Coming.

 

[RamistThomist]

In the type of republic that USA is established to be, yes.

You are now using your Christian faith to inform legal decisions. What right do you have to stop someone from sticking pins in dolls?

 

[RamistThomist]

There will be no Theonomy form of government established by God until the time of the Second Coming.

That is called an assertion, not an argument. Anyway, I am not a theonomist.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

Roger Williams is sometimes held up as a hero of religious freedom by Baptists. I would submit the following quote of his for consideration:



It's stunning to me that so many Baptists (and even some Presbyterians) can look at that statement and say "amen", while I see a policy that is contrary to the law and detestable in the sight of the Lord.

For those interested in learning more about how Williams’ thinking was influenced by his dealings with Coke and Bacon in England, and later with the Puritans in New England, I would recommend this book. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0143...F8&qid=1521565225&sr=1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65