What is the mark of the beast?

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Peter
Calvin, thanks for your post. While I disagree with the particulars of your interpretation of Rev 13, I believe the principle of interpretation you employ is the correct biblical method. The book of Revelation is traditionally divided into 3 sections based on 1:19 (1) "things which thou hast seen" the visions John received of the Son, the candlestick, etc. (2) things that are - the 7 churches (3) and things which shall be. The third part takes place in the sealed book. The sealed book represents the secret decrees of God to the end of the world. From the 1st verse we understand that the events revealed by the opening of the seals begin shortly after the writing of the apocalypse. The sealed book was future history of the entire last days (the NT era), we do it injustice by limiting the scope of its prophecies to one short time period. Aditionally, Partial preterism is inconsistent by, as a rule, constraining Revelation to the 1st century but then jumping to the end of the world for the application of a few passages. Finally, preterism is refuted from the first verse of Revelation. John saw visions of futurity, not the past which Jewish War was by the time Revelation was written, viz. the late reign of Domitian according to the early 2nd century patristic Irenaeus. Like preterism historicism ties prophecy to actual events in history, connecting christianity to the social concerns of the real world, and also, not forever frozen in fear of always imminent literal fulfilment of obviously symbolic prophecies. But Historicism is preterism without any artificial time restraints.

It has been proven quite convincingly that the Book of Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70.

 

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by JohnV
You're right about me, I am too opinionated. I meant no disrespect. I related an observation, one that I could document if I were trailing people to catch them in their words.

I am not opposed to finding out what the meanings of texts are. But we have to respect the fact that predictive aptitude goes only so far. I could not really relate to you what the fifties and sixties were really like, but that doesn't mean that you can't know the history. How much more cloudy is the future? If the predictions of Scripture are true, which I am sure they are, then they will be true to the time at which they are fulfilled. That means that if it came true today it would be far different than if it came true hundreds of years from now. The whole world situation will be changed, and the particulars which are symbolically represented will have far different connotations then. Look how different it is now from the time of the Reformation. But even the most orthodox of the members of the Westminster Assembly thought the pope was the antichrist at the time. World War II made it look altogether different again. And then we had the cold war, and now we have an uneasy peace, not knowing who or where the enemy is, but who is present all the same: they can blow up our buildings at any time. We just don't know what the future history of the world will be, but it will impact how we understand these texts.

Having said all that, there are invariables too. And you are right that we should be clear on them. There should be no dilly-dallying around about those truths. But they should not in the slightest depend upon our speculative surmizings. I was commenting on someone who stood on his opinion as if it were the gospel, and only showing his ignorance that way. Finding the meaning of Scripture is a far different thing than assuming some kind of authority for our speculations in the Bible.

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by JohnV]

John,

Just be sure when you accuse people of ignorance, make sure you say who you're referring to. Your statement could have been directed towards a number of people. But if you were referring to me, I accept the charges. I am ignorant in many areas, actually all areas apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

Many people may seem as trying to assert their "opinion" as gospel because they are convicted they are right. It is better to make clearcut statements from a pure heart that are scriptural than it is to continually meddle around with opinions. That is what we are here for as brothers, that if we do see one another making false statements, we ought to sharpen each other up. There is no one who has it all together. We ought to major on the majors and minor on the minors, keeping unity in the Spirit through the bond of peace.

A while ago I made a commitment to the Lord to focus on His Word and get to know Him, laying aside all these books that are out there. There are so many opinions being published these days for the sake of the almighty dollar.

Anyway, I wanted to leave a Proverb with everyone that is becoming near and dear to my heart, that seems to be a problem in this forum,

"A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing his own opinions." Proverbs 18:2

This is helping me to understand that the truth lies in scripture and not in me. We want the truth in all areas of scripture, so perhaps instead of everyone airing their own voice, we all in this forum ought to start helping and encouraging each other to come to some real unity. I take full responsibility for my own ignorance, knowing that it comes from the iniquity in my heart. Something that the Lord is teaching me more and more is that His Word becomes more and more understandable and He reveals it to us as the dross is purged from our hearts. The purer my heart becomes by God's grace, being in tune with Heaven's music, the more I understand the Bible. So it is not a lack of education that merely keeps people from understanding scripture, it is the iniquity in our hearts. The Bible is a spiritual book, concerning spiritual things, written with spiritual words.

One last thing I noticed in this forum is that there seems to be a lot of ego. It's stuffy in here! There isn't a whole lot of love. There is too much cold shoulder as well. I learned recently from Mark 3:1-6 that keeping your peace can indicate a hard heart. It doesn't always indicate wisdom. There is a whole lot of knowledge, but there isn't much pertaining to childlike humility and genuine Christian unity and charity. Knowledge puffeth up!!! Let's show love to one another. I am personally sorry if I have been smug towards anyone!

Well, gotta sign off for a while. I must pace myself on these forums.

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by Jeremy]

 

[Calvin Cormier]

the false prophets \"image\"

Thanks all for your comments.

It has been quite some time since I read preterist and historicist interpretation for what the image created by the false prophet that dies and yet comes back to life might be.

I would appreciate hearing that interpretation from each view (preterist and historicist) if available.

thanks calvin

 

[JohnV]

Originally posted by Jeremy

John,

Just be sure when you accuse people of ignorance, make sure you say who you're referring to. Your statement could have been directed towards a number of people. But if you were referring to me, I accept the charges. I am ignorant in many areas, actually all areas apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

Many people may seem as trying to assert their "opinion" as gospel because they are convicted they are right. It is better to make clearcut statements from a pure heart that are scriptural than it is to continually meddle around with opinions. That is what we are here for as brothers, that if we do see one another making false statements, we ought to sharpen each other up. There is no one who has it all together. We ought to major on the majors and minor on the minors, keeping unity in the Spirit through the bond of peace.

A while ago I made a commitment to the Lord to focus on His Word and get to know Him, laying aside all these books that are out there. There are so many opinions being published these days for the sake of the almighty dollar.

Anyway, I wanted to leave a Proverb with everyone that is becoming near and dear to my heart, that seems to be a problem in this forum,

"A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airing his own opinions." Proverbs 18:2

This is helping me to understand that the truth lies in scripture and not in me. We want the truth in all areas of scripture, so perhaps instead of everyone airing their own voice, we all in this forum ought to start helping and encouraging each other to come to some real unity. I take full responsibility for my own ignorance, knowing that it comes from the iniquity in my heart. Something that the Lord is teaching me more and more is that His Word becomes more and more understandable and He reveals it to us as the dross is purged from our hearts. The purer my heart becomes by God's grace, being in tune with Heaven's music, the more I understand the Bible. So it is not a lack of education that merely keeps people from understanding scripture, it is the iniquity in our hearts. The Bible is a spiritual book, concerning spiritual things, written with spiritual words.

One last thing I noticed in this forum is that there seems to be a lot of ego. It's stuffy in here! There isn't a whole lot of love. There is too much cold shoulder as well. I learned recently from Mark 3:1-6 that keeping your peace can indicate a hard heart. It doesn't always indicate wisdom. There is a whole lot of knowledge, but there isn't much pertaining to childlike humility and genuine Christian unity and charity. Knowledge puffeth up!!! Let's show love to one another. I am personally sorry if I have been smug towards anyone!

Well, gotta sign off for a while. I must pace myself on these forums.

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by Jeremy]

Jeremy:

This is a discussion board, so the discussions here are different; its a venue for such things. I didn't take anyone here as propounding their own version of the end times as the only possible teaching that Jesus could have taught. I didn't mean to accuse you personally. If it appear that way, (and I can see the legitimacy of that) I am truly sorry for that. It was more an attempt to keep everyone from doing something that is very popular to do these days.

I am taking every opportunity that I have to push the concept, no the precept, of the perspecuity of God's Word. Ever since I became an adult, which has now been many years, I have repeatedly, ad nauseum, come across the the excuse that people cling so dearly to, that they seem to feel vindicated in making up their own doctrine in the absence of the clarity of Scripture on the issue. You have ordination, creation days, lapsarian issues, epistemological philosophies, end time scenarios, and on and on. Somehow, in the churches, people seem to feel that being ordained, or even being saved, is a licence to fill in the blanks as they see fit. And they don't see that this is just the opposite of what these things mean. If you're saved, you're saved unto His Word; if you're ordained, it is to preach, teach, defend, or minister His Word. So many get saved only to jump into a bigger hole.

Speculating is one thing, and is commendable to those seeking to know what the more obscure parts of Scripture mean in light of the clear passages. But it is altogether as different thing to justify your opinion simply on the grounds that it agrees with the wording of Scripture, when our limitations in that regard are not repected.

An embassador doesn't have the right to make up his own interpretation of the message he is sent to deliver, or to make of it what he sees fit; the one who sent him has written what he wants said, and that should be good enough for the embassador.

My days on this Board are numbered. I need to leave behind me this most important message. We'll long be fighting the Wrights and Shepherds of this world right in our own communities of faith. But the way they got in the door in the first place was because we left that door wide open for them to do just as they are doing.

So if I came off sounding accusing, I'm sorry. This is the place to field speculations and ideas. But it is also the place to call each other to the confines of the faith. After all, that's why we have the confessional standards, not as an interpretation but as a limitation. Otherwise the axiom of "Scripture interprets Scripture" contradicts our basis for having a confessional standard in the first place.

I support your endeavour to abide by the Word. By it we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free. Yours is an excellent testimony of faith, and in it we stand together under a common bond, under the same King.

 

[Jeremy]

Jeremy:

This is a discussion board, so the discussions here are different; its a venue for such things. I didn't take anyone here as propounding their own version of the end times as the only possible teaching that Jesus could have taught. I didn't mean to accuse you personally. If it appear that way, (and I can see the legitimacy of that) I am truly sorry for that. It was more an attempt to keep everyone from doing something that is very popular to do these days.

I am taking every opportunity that I have to push the concept, no the precept, of the perspecuity of God's Word. Ever since I became an adult, which has now been many years, I have repeatedly, ad nauseum, come across the the excuse that people cling so dearly to, that they seem to feel vindicated in making up their own doctrine in the absence of the clarity of Scripture on the issue. You have ordination, creation days, lapsarian issues, epistemological philosophies, end time scenarios, and on and on. Somehow, in the churches, people seem to feel that being ordained, or even being saved, is a licence to fill in the blanks as they see fit. And they don't see that this is just the opposite of what these things mean. If you're saved, you're saved unto His Word; if you're ordained, it is to preach, teach, defend, or minister His Word. So many get saved only to jump into a bigger hole.

Speculating is one thing, and is commendable to those seeking to know what the more obscure parts of Scripture mean in light of the clear passages. But it is altogether as different thing to justify your opinion simply on the grounds that it agrees with the wording of Scripture, when our limitations in that regard are not repected.

An embassador doesn't have the right to make up his own interpretation of the message he is sent to deliver, or to make of it what he sees fit; the one who sent him has written what he wants said, and that should be good enough for the embassador.

My days on this Board are numbered. I need to leave behind me this most important message. We'll long be fighting the Wrights and Shepherds of this world right in our own communities of faith. But the way they got in the door in the first place was because we left that door wide open for them to do just as they are doing.

So if I came off sounding accusing, I'm sorry. This is the place to field speculations and ideas. But it is also the place to call each other to the confines of the faith. After all, that's why we have the confessional standards, not as an interpretation but as a limitation. Otherwise the axiom of "Scripture interprets Scripture" contradicts our basis for having a confessional standard in the first place.

I support your endeavour to abide by the Word. By it we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free. Yours is an excellent testimony of faith, and in it we stand together under a common bond, under the same King. [/quote]


John,

Your response is most gracious. Thank you! I believe you're right concerning interpretation of scripture. That's why discussion among brothers is important. We get such a bad taste in our mouths when we see different ideas being published these days in books, because too many authors are doing just what you said, they're purporting their false ideas or opinions as gospel. Because if they don't, no one will $$$ their book. I would rather trust the good judgment of the smallest man on earth who walks humbly before his God, than I would the smartest, most popular theologian in this day and age. We may get some really good tips and info off those guys, but in today's world, where there is so much to profit from publishing books, we have to be careful. We need to be looking for the spirit that accompanies these things. God is really teaching me the truth in I John about how the Spirit of Christ must accompany the teaching, otherwise it's not legit. It just seems as though among all our knowledge, we've lost the thrust of the gospel, "Truly I say to you, unless you turn and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." -Matt. 18:3-4

I'm no longer impressed by mental giants. I'm impressed by sincere brothers in Christ who show genuine humility and love to others. And in reality, if we're not living accoring to passages like Rom 12-14, we're just fooling ourselves.

-Thanks again!

-J