What is the purpose of the millennium according to historic premillennialism

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sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
tl;dr

You mentioned that you read 300 books on eschatology. Could you provide us book reviews of the most notable counters to your position and show where their arguments aren't truth-preserving?

It's also interesting that you came on PB to attack premillennialism. There are maybe 3 premils on it. I am one of them but I waiver sometimes. I agree with Michael Heiser: every eschatological system cheats to make it work.

I see that you are both determined to derail this thread and sidetrack this discussion away from Scripture. I am not going to bite the bait. It is suffice to say: your refusal or inability to address some basic biblical queries testify to the non-corroborative nature of Premil. That might be a reason why so few posters here hold to the theory.

If you want notified when I do publish on this subject, I would be happy to email you. I have 19 years of research and still digging. My argument has never been who or who does not hold to one given position, albeit the vast bulk of Reformed writers since the Reformation have held to a climactic coming of Christ. My intent was to request corroboration, something that has not been forthcoming from any of the 3 of you.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
To be fair, it's been held by a few. Very few, though some of the names are prominent. We shouldn't press the case beyond the evidence.
I agree, but it was once the prominent held position within early Church, and its Dispensational view that was a recent development, but Historical view predates even A Mil view of his!
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
I agree, but it was once the prominent held position within early Church, and its Dispensational view that was a recent development, but Historical view predates even A Mil view of his!

That is incorrect. Amil was the prevailing school for the first 400 years after the cross. The Historic Premil term is a recent innovation to differentiate it from the error of Dispensationalism. Ancient Chiliasm was closer to Amil than modern day Premil views. I see that you bring zero evidence to the table to prove your suppositions.

Lactantius was the first classic "orthodox" Premil. His writings are called the "Divine Institutes." He was from Africa and lived around 250 - 317 AD). So where did Lactanius received his theology? Lactantius notably doesn't use Scripture either to support his idea of a future millennium but 'the Sibyl'. The Sibyl was a woman who prophesied while in a state of frenzy under the supposed inspiration of a deity. What she spoke was said to carry the authority of Scripture - thus Lactantius builds his arguments on her prophecies.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
That is incorrect. Amil was the prevailing school for the first 400 years after the cross. The Historic Premil term is a recent innovation to differentiate it from the error of Dispensationalism. Ancient Chiliasm was closer to Amil than modern day Premil views. I see that you bring zero evidence to the table to prove your suppositions.

Lactantius was the first classic "orthodox" Premil. His writings are called the "Divine Institutes." He was from Africa and lived around 250 - 317 AD). So where did Lactanius received his theology? Lactantius notably doesn't use Scripture either to support his idea of a future millennium but 'the Sibyl'. The Sibyl was a woman who prophesied while in a state of frenzy under the supposed inspiration of a deity. What she spoke was said to carry the authority of Scripture - thus Lactantius builds his arguments on her prophecies.
The Messianic Age would be the time when Messiah reigns, whole earth under law of God, no more war/famines/all would know and obey true God. When has that happened in history? That Age isnot the same as the Eternal State ...
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
The Messianic Age would be the time when Messiah reigns, whole earth under law of God, no more war/famines/all would know and obey true God. When has that happened in history? That Age isnot the same as the Eternal State ...

... and where exactly in Rev 20 does it predict that?

Anyway, the Messianic period commenced with the earthly ministry of Messiah 2000 years ago.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
It is suffice to say: your refusal or inability to address some basic biblical queries testify to the non-corroborative nature of Premil.
:lol::lol:

Not really. It's just that your earlier responses showed you were more interested in giving long discourses about amillennialism (which we already know) than about interacting.

The other part of my "inability" is that I don't really hold to premil as a system. I agree with some pre-wrath guys on Greek exegesis of certain passages, but I don't go for one system.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
:lol::lol:

Not really. It's just that your earlier responses showed you were more interested in giving long discourses about amillennialism (which we already know) than about interacting.

The other part of my "inability" is that I don't really hold to premil as a system. I agree with some pre-wrath guys on Greek exegesis of certain passages, but I don't go for one system.
What is pre wrath?
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
When were the passages about God being worshipped by all nations and people?

The Gospel has gone out to the nations, as the OT prophets, Christ and the NT writers predicted. Those Gentiles who have eyes to see and ears to hear have been embracing Christ for 2000 years, and have given Him suitable worship.

The woman of Samaria said unto Jesus, in John 4:19-24, “Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship” (vv 19-20).

The woman makes a very true statement here in relation to the place of Jewish worship. However, things were about to change from the time of Christ on.

Christ replied, “Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” (vv 21-24).
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
The Gospel has gone out to the nations, as the OT prophets, Christ and the NT writers predicted. Those Gentiles who have eyes to see and ears to hear have been embracing Christ for 2000 years, and have given Him suitable worship.

The woman of Samaria said unto Jesus, in John 4:19-24, “Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship” (vv 19-20).

The woman makes a very true statement here in relation to the place of Jewish worship. However, things were about to change from the time of Christ on.

Christ replied, “Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” (vv 21-24).
You would hold to postmil then, as through church God brings in the Messianic Era?
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
You would hold to postmil then, as through church God brings in the Messianic Era?

Amils and many modern-day Postmils believe that Christ's first advent ushered in the Messianic Era, and that it is synonymous with the "last days" (so anticipated by the prophets) and 'the millennial period'.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Amils and many modern-day Postmils believe that Christ's first advent ushered in the Messianic Era, and that it is synonymous with the "last days" (so anticipated by the prophets) and 'the millennial period'.
Scripture seems to see the Messianic Age though as being direct reigning of Jesus Himself right here upon the Earth.
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
The saints that were killed by Antichrist were resurrected and reigned and ruled with Him on earth at his returning.

But how do glorified saints produce mortal offspring? This doesn't make sense. Remember, the wicked overwhelm your supposed future Premil blissful millennium as the sand of the sea and surround the saints at the end? Where do they come from? Are you saying that these are glorified saints change allegiance from Christ to Satan and lose their salvation?
 
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sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
Most premils say earth. They didn't die in the major battles between Rev. 19 and 20.


To be fair to premils, they aren't interpreting the post-Rev 19 Battle events as "wrath of God." At least not in the Great White Throne sense.

The reality is, Rev 19 is climactic, like every other second coming passage. It forbids your scenario. Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

He is Coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
They were in the first resurrection, which is where all receive glorified state!

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?

Which is the foremost resurrection in place?

Which is the foremost resurrection in order?

Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?

Which is the foremost resurrection in place?

Which is the foremost resurrection in order?

Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
The resurrection of the saints happen at Second Coming, do first resurrection if Jesus and also includes His redeemed!
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
The resurrection of the saints happen at Second Coming, do first resurrection if Jesus and also includes His redeemed!

The Christian has a meros or “part” in “the first resurrection.” The phrase “that hath part” proves we are looking at our positional involvement in Christ's first resurrection. That comes through being “in Christ.”

Through Christ’s life, death and resurrection we are delivered from eternal punishment (the second death). This is the only resurrection that spares the entire redeemed community from the horrors of the Lake of Fire.

Our participation in this hope is active and ongoing; it is not merely a future hope at His Coming. 1 Peter 1:3-5 confirms this, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Romans 6:9-11 tells us: “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin (which is repentance – a turning away from sin) and alive unto God through faith. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.
 
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Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
The Christian has a meros or “part” in “the first resurrection.” The phrase “that hath part” proves we are looking at our positional involvement in Christ's first resurrection. That comes through being “in Christ.”

Through Christ’s life, death and resurrection we are delivered from eternal punishment (the second death). This is the only resurrection that spares the entire redeemed community from the horrors of the Lake of Fire.

Our participation in this hope is active and ongoing; it is not merely a future hope at His Coming. 1 Peter 1:3-5 confirms this, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Romans 6:9-11 tells us: “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin (which is repentance – a turning away from sin) and alive unto God through faith. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.
Per John, our blessed hope is the second coming, when we are raised up with Christ, and reign with Him.
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
Per John, our blessed hope is the second coming, when we are raised up with Christ, and reign with Him.

How does that address or rebut what I was saying? We must be spiritually raised up "in Christ" (His first resurrection) in order for us to experience the second physical resurrection of the just.

Are you suggesting that physical resurrection rather than spiritual resurrection is the actual means by which men escape eternal punishment?

Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Man is spiritually dead prior to conversion; he must therefore be spiritually raised. The spiritual life that we enter into in this life by the resurrection power of Christ will be the very power that brings us into the final resurrection state.
 

arapahoepark

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Per John, our blessed hope is the second coming, when we are raised up with Christ, and reign with Him.
David,
In a lot (most?) Of your posts you assert what needs to be proved. You assume/presuppose wooden literal categories and wonder why people disagree.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
David,
In a lot (most?) Of your posts you assert what needs to be proved. You assume/presuppose wooden literal categories and wonder why people disagree.
How is it wooden? John ties the second coming to when we shall be raised up in like fashion as Jesus, and Paul agrees with him, as both tied our resurrection in a glorified state at time of second coming event.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
How does that address or rebut what I was saying? We must be spiritually raised up "in Christ" (His first resurrection) in order for us to experience the second physical resurrection of the just.

Are you suggesting that physical resurrection rather than spiritual resurrection is the actual means by which men escape eternal punishment?

Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Man is spiritually dead prior to conversion; he must therefore be spiritually raised. The spiritual life that we enter into in this life by the resurrection power of Christ will be the very power that brings us into the final resurrection state.
Both John and Paul affirms to us that the physical resurrection will occur at Second Coming, as that is what is meant by the First Resurrection.
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
Both John and Paul affirms to us that the physical resurrection will occur at Second Coming, as that is what is meant by the First Resurrection.

I have showed you what the NT identifies the "first resurrection" as. You choose to ignore that, and just repeat what you believe, notably without scriptural support. That is frustrating to engage with. You also ignore question after question that challenges the Premil position. I will take your avoidance, and failure to furnish supporting Scripture, as an acknowledgment that your doctrine lacks biblical corroboration.

What is more, you fail to acknowledge that there are 2 resurrections pertaining to the believer in Scripture, and the first is not physical resurrection at the second coming, it is a spiritual resurrection. It is that alone that gives us victory over the second death.

Is the resurrection mentioned throughout the Word of God that delivers us from eternal punishment (the second death), physical or spiritual?

Where does the New Testament teach that the physical resurrection is the actual means of delivering us from the second death?
 
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Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
I have showed you what the NT identifies the "first resurrection" as. You choose to ignore that, and just repeat what you believe, notably without scriptural support. That is frustrating to engage with. You also ignore question after question that challenges the Premil position. I will take your avoidance, and failure to furnish supporting Scripture, as an acknowledgment that your doctrine lacks biblical corroboration.

What is more, you fail to acknowledge that there are 2 resurrections pertaining to the believer in Scripture, and the first is not physical resurrection at the second coming, it is a spiritual resurrection. It is that alone that gives us victory over the second death.

Is the resurrection mentioned throughout the Word of God that delivers us from eternal punishment (the second death), physical or spiritual?

Where does the New Testament teach that the physical resurrection is the actual means of delivering us from the second death?
Paul tells us I 1 Corinthians 15 that we shsll be raised up in same physical resurrection as Jesus did, and ties that to being at Second Coming, as did John in both 1 John and Revelation 20!
 

sovereigngrace

Puritan Board Freshman
Paul tells us I 1 Corinthians 15 that we shsll be raised up in same physical resurrection as Jesus did, and ties that to being at Second Coming, as did John in both 1 John and Revelation 20!

You are dodging the issue. For you to answer the questions would negate your argument.

All sides agree that there is a physical resurrection of all believers at the second coming. What you are missing, and so is Premil, is that other clear Scripture shows "the first resurrection" to be Christ's glorious conquering of the grave. We see that "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5) relates to what Christ secured 2000 years ago. What is more, you are careful to avoid the fact that "the first resurrection" that believers experienced is actually spiritual not physical. Finally, you ignore the fact that spiritual resurrection is the only resurrection that is said to give us victory over the second death.

Jesus said in John 5:24: ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

He continues in the next verse (John 5:25): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54&58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread,he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

John 8:51 Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death … If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death (or experience the second death).”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”

Revelation 20:6 says the exact same, speaking of the same salvation, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”
 
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