What to make of Reform Charismatics?

Discussion in 'Pneumatology' started by Dachaser, Nov 10, 2016.

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  1. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    As some such as Dr Grudem, and Don Carson/Piper seem to be endorsing some aspects of Charasmatic theology?
     
  2. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Depends on how far to take it and what they are doing. At the most basic level, best not to lump them in with Benny Hinn types and then go from there.

    I've been called a charismatic because I've quoted Richard Cameron and some of the Covenanters, so the word "charismatic" doesn't mean all that much.
     
  3. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    I wouldn't call any of the men you mention "Reformed". Calvinistic? Sure. Nice guys, all of them,I'm sure. All have contributed to Christianity in a positive way in some areas. Brothers for sure, but Reformed they are not.
     
  4. Stope

    Stope Puritan Board Sophomore

    Keller is Reformed and Charismatic
     
  5. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    If this is true (I don't know much of him, save for the problems that have been brought up here), it is an anomaly and is in conflict with the confession he states he holds....
     
  6. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Ia agree, as there seems to be a vast different among even Charasmatics, as many hold to aberrant therology such as Domenion/Word of fauth/Latter day Rain, but many also just hold to prophecy more akin to Dr Grudem views, and do not hold to other heritical stuff...

    My church and mine own views in this are that God can still heal/do miracles, but only when He decides to do that for His own reasons, and none have gifts to do those things today...

    God can still doa s He pleaes, but always will agree with His written word!
     
  7. Jake

    Jake Puritan Board Junior

    I've met some Reformed elders (PCA) who would take a cautious view on the possibility of charismatic gifts and thus not a hardline cessationist view. I won't debate whether or not this is confessional, but I don't think this is wholly outside of historic Reformed practice.
     
  8. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    I agree, Jake, that it has been a "practice". The confessional/biblical question must be asked, though. What view one takes on this issue will, likely, take one in two divergent, theological directions....:2cents:
     
  9. KeithW

    KeithW Puritan Board Freshman

    It really depends on the church and the believers.

    A friend I went to high school with is a pastor. He is a hardline Reformed/Calvinist and was greatly impressed when he met a Reformed charismatic for the first time. So I tried looking for that kind of church. The "local" one I visited only once was neither Reformed nor charismatic, and I'm not sure was really even Christian.
     
  10. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    The reformed Charismatic element (I was a practicing Charismatic in a past life) has introduced trouble to the church. It gave us John Piper at Passion 2013 (or so), standing among a line-up that included Beth Moore on a stage before thousands of impressionable young Christians, telling them to be still and sit in silence as they listened inwardly for God to speak a word to them. It gave us Wayne Grudem advising on prayer in his systematic theology that praying according to the will of God, i.e. praying with faith, often depends on receiving a special knowledge of his decretive will for specific situations.

    And I agree that the title reformed charismatics is a misnomer. Reformation leads to a rejection of the kinds of practices and beliefs mentioned above and an embrace of the biblical doctrine of God and his ways. I don't think mixing Charismatic beliefs with reformed doctrine is all that new, either.
     
  11. Bill The Baptist

    Bill The Baptist Puritan Board Graduate

    In my experience, the only gift that so-called reformed charismatics seem to believe in is continuing prophecy. This is mainly so they can control their congregations by appealing to "God told me" ala Mark Driscoll.
     
  12. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    That would be true, as they would push up Dr Grudem as their poster boy for holding to theirview onProphecy...

    My understanding on this gift wouldbe that during times of Apostles/Acts, was a transistion era, and the Lord established His doctrine/practices through Apostles/Prophets of the NT, who were indeed inspired by Him just as OT prophets were...

    With the Canon completed and available, those offices in NT church ceased, as not needed any more..
    Cannot have "partial prophecy : as Dr Grudem would us have!
     
  13. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    I know it more as "Bapticostalist" as churches in non Confessional Baptist churxches have had real problems dealing with this issue!
     
  14. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Are charasmatic gifts allowed by the Confession though?
     
  15. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Think that they would all uphold the 5 points of Grace, so would be reformed in views on Sotierology
     
  16. GulfCoast Presbyterian

    GulfCoast Presbyterian Puritan Board Junior

    Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. (WCF 1.1, emphasis added)

    And see:

    Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. (LBCF 1.1)

    The historic Reformed position, as I understand it (I'm a cessationist), is that the Westminster Confession's position is that the gifts have ceased, but it does allow for some nuance. See generally:

    http://www.wtsbooks.com/the-westmin...0?utm_source=kdeyoung&utm_medium=blogpartners
     
  17. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    That would indeed be the Confession viewpoint in regards to the spiritual gifts, so why would there be any any refomed churches allowing that in their group?
     
  18. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Not all Reformed bodies are the same,and it also depends on how a person takes "continuing revelation." I hold with several covenanters that there were times where they received knowledge they otherwise wouldn't have. Does that put them in the same category as Paula White? I don't think so.

    I suppose it is more of a session/presbytery thing.

    My position is that a lot (though not all) of cessationist arguments do not actually obtain. But does that make me a tongue-talkin', aisle-walkin, prophesying charismatic? I don't think it does.
     
  19. GulfCoast Presbyterian

    GulfCoast Presbyterian Puritan Board Junior

    Because the authors of the confession were not at all monolithic in their belief or approach to what is, or is not, a manifestation of the "gifts." I would suggest Milne's book as a good starting point if you wish to study the issue. And two, see Jacob's post above.
     
  20. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Would you then by more in line withthose scholars referenced , as they would hold to the Holy Spirit still at times sending to Christian promptings/convictions/guidance in addition to the written word?

    Guess a lot of this depends on if you see prophecy as in the local churches in Acts as revelatory in nature, as those who do see that gift ceased, or as mor eprompting anf guidance as those scholars seem to be?
     
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    No. My view is that in God's sovereign mercy he sometimes gives information to people they wouldn't otherwise have had (like, don't go down this road because bad guys are there, or something). That happened a lot during the Killing Times. Grudem and Piper see these gifts as part of the liturgy (if I may use that word). I don't.
     
  22. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    So like God can still send that to His own people in certain specifi situations, but not gifted in the sense Charasmatics use the term for gifts?
     
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    So there was not a full consensus on the spiritual gifts operating still or not, if so, in what fashion and degree?

    Think big problem is that 2 streams in modern Charasmatic, one is word of faith/health and wealth, another would be opentoHoly Spirit moving, but not as in new revelation, modern day Apostles/Prophets etc!
     
  24. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    The only "nuance" allowed is what is called "mediate prophecy", that is interpreting current events in the light of a deep knowledge of Scripture to conditionally make known what is happening or is going to happen in the light of God's Word.

    That is very different to immediate inspiration by the Holy Spirit, such as the biblical prophets and apostles enjoyed.

    Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
     
  25. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    Not all Reformed groups are confessional. Some have the name "Reformed" because they are Calvinistic in their soteriology i.e. they hold to the Five Points and God's predestination sovereignty - which is a good start. Otherwise they are open to other influences e.g. "contemporary worship", Pentecostalism, etc.

    Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
     
  26. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    There are five revelatory gifts that we don't look for in this post-Apostolic age, when we have the complete Scriptures, i.e. prophecy, languages, the interpretation of languages, healing and miracles.

    There are three offices that we don't recognise: Apostle, Prophet and Evangelist ( where the word "evangelist" is being used in the sense of a type of church planter with extraordinary gifts).

    The foundation of the apostles and prophets has already been laid in the completed canon.

    One of the best books In my humble opinion on the cessation of revelatory gifts is Lutheran, Douglas Judisch's "An Evaluation of Claims to the Charismatic Gifts" ( Baker Biblical Monograph).

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  27. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Mediate prophecy is what I would hold. Or rather, how I interpret the experiences of several covenanters.
     
  28. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Covenant structures salvation, so these guys wouldn't be Reformed. At best, they hold to a sovereign grace view of the so-called 5 points.
     
  29. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    We would hold to the Lord still able to do miracles/healings even today, but not anyone gifted to do them. correct?
     
  30. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    A Reformed church has to hold to one of the Confessions though. correct?

    And someone like a John Macarthur would be calvinist, but not reformed?
     
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