What to make of Reform Charismatics?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gforce9

Puritan Board Junior
A Reformed church has to hold to one of the Confessions though. correct?

And someone like a John Macarthur would be calvinist, but not reformed?
1- Correct. Many would also argue for an even stricter definition that would not include Baptists. While I am one of those, it is for sake of clarity of terms and not to speak less of my brothers of a different ecclesiology.
2- JM is a strange bird: I would call him Calvinistically-leaning Dispensational Baptist.
 
Last edited:

GulfCoast Presbyterian

Puritan Board Junior
Are charasmatic gifts allowed by the Confession though?
Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. (WCF 1.1, emphasis added)

And see:

Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased. (LBCF 1.1)

The historic Reformed position, as I understand it (I'm a cessationist), is that the Westminster Confession's position is that the gifts have ceased, but it does allow for some nuance. See generally:

http://www.wtsbooks.com/the-westmin...0?utm_source=kdeyoung&utm_medium=blogpartners
The only "nuance" allowed is what is called "mediate prophecy", that is interpreting current events in the light of a deep knowledge of Scripture to conditionally make known what is happening or is going to happen in the light of God's Word.

That is very different to immediate inspiration by the Holy Spirit, such as the biblical prophets and apostles enjoyed.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
I agree. That was my very point.
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
If memory serves, the term "extraordinary providence" has been used with regard to certain things experienced by the Covenanters, Spurgeon and a few others.

At best that is a type of continuationism. (And I know some here would probably argue even with that characterization.) It isn't charismaticism in the way that is commonly regarded today e.g. the Vineyard, Grudem or even Piper. All charismatics are continuationists, but not all continuationists are charismatics in the way most think of that today.

I was reading James Montgomery Boice a few years ago. If memory serves, I came across a footnote in which he clearly appeared to reject the usual cessationist argument about the canon being closed ruling out a continuation of the sign gifts. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone put him in the charismatic camp.
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
We would hold to the Lord still able to do miracles/healings even today, but not anyone gifted to do them. correct?
This is the distinction that is often missed. Charismatics will say "You don't believe God heals today" if you assert that Benny Hinn does not have the Biblical gift of healing, does not have an "anointing" etc. That's a non sequitur. Saying that the gift of healing has ceased is not the same as saying that healing itself has ceased.

I don't know of anyone besides liberals or others who have some kind of aberrant theology who would rule out any kind of miracle today. But the word miracle is also thrown about too often even by people who are cessationists. For example, I know one Baptist pastor who claimed a miracle when they received more donations for their building fund than a consultant said was reasonable to expect under the circumstances.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
So you would see it as being gifted by God to be able to gnve forth what the scriptures can mean in a particular situation, to be givem insight in application?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Would he be like Dr Grudem/Carson, as those who would not automatically see the passage referencing when the perfect comes as being the canon, but instead the Second Coming?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Would say that someone like george Mueller shows the gift of faith, as he was able to trust God to have his orphanage receive all needed monies and supplies but not ever really making a "hard sell" to get support!
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
So you would see it as being gifted by God to be able to gnve forth what the scriptures can mean in a particular situation, to be givem insight in application?
Who? The Reformed cessationist? This is compatible with cessationism.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Would he be like Dr Grudem/Carson, as those who would not automatically see the passage referencing when the perfect comes as being the canon, but instead the Second Coming?
Who is "he"? Many (most?) cessationists see I Corinthians 13 as referring to the cessation of revelatory gifts when the canon of Scripture is complete. See e.g. the above book by Douglas Judisch.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Yes, that one could hold to the sign gifts not operating today as they did in Acts, but that God could still give insight to someone to apply the scriptures to a specific situation in order to give guidance/encouragement/exhortation?
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
I don't know of anyone besides liberals or others who have some kind of aberrant theology who would rule out any kind of miracle today. But the word miracle is also thrown about too often even by people who are cessationists. For example, I know one Baptist pastor who claimed a miracle when they received more donations for their building fund than a consultant said was reasonable to expect under the circumstances.
Count me as one of those "liberals" who believe the sign gifts, which includes any super natural healing occurring today, have passed. We have no infallible moral warrant to accept such.
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
I don't know of anyone besides liberals or others who have some kind of aberrant theology who would rule out any kind of miracle today. But the word miracle is also thrown about too often even by people who are cessationists. For example, I know one Baptist pastor who claimed a miracle when they received more donations for their building fund than a consultant said was reasonable to expect under the circumstances.
Count me as one of those "liberals" who believe the sign gifts, which includes any super natural healing occurring today, have passed. We have no infallible moral warrant to accept such.
Would you then likewise say that anointing the sick (as in the epistle of James) is not to be practiced to day?

Do you pray for any kind of healing? If God doesn't heal, then just what is it that you are asking Him to do, if you pray for healing?
 

KGP

Puritan Board Freshman
In God we all live and move and have our being, and so we must understand that amazing things beyond what we can ask or imagine are to be expected from God in our lives. All believers should be open to whatever providence may bring their way; that includes healings; life changing moments; freedoms from bondage; or even surprising temporal blessings.

HOWEVER; these things all must be understood and comprehended through the lens of providence; which is where the charismatics really don't have a solid foundation in my experience. If they understood providence in the sense that the confessions describe it; they would likely turn more readily to the appointed and certain means of grace for their spiritual sustenance rather than to the good dispensations of God's providence which are subject to change according to God's will for our lives. Charismatics take God's good dealings with his people and even unbelievers and makes them the basis of spiritual life; rather than the appointed means of the Word and Sacrament; and many of them outright reject that God indeed governs all his creation to the degree the confessions state.

Experience is experience; it cannot really be measured or denied or even analyzed with any real accuracy. A high view of God's providence leaves us with the option of thanking God for whatever good comes out way and also being patient and trusting during hardship without thinking too deeply in categories we are not meant to think or seeking blindly for further experience. A right view of providence allows us to be content that God is God and get on with the work of conformity to his Word, both written and living; both of which describe a lifestyle and emotional direction much different than is found in the charismatic world from what I have seen.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
I don't know of anyone besides liberals or others who have some kind of aberrant theology who would rule out any kind of miracle today. But the word miracle is also thrown about too often even by people who are cessationists. For example, I know one Baptist pastor who claimed a miracle when they received more donations for their building fund than a consultant said was reasonable to expect under the circumstances.
Count me as one of those "liberals" who believe the sign gifts, which includes any super natural healing occurring today, have passed. We have no infallible moral warrant to accept such.
Would you then likewise say that anointing the sick (as in the epistle of James) is not to be practiced to day?

Do you pray for any kind of healing? If God doesn't heal, then just what is it that you are asking Him to do, if you pray for healing?
I would say that since extraordinary healing (miracles)do not happen today oil on the forehead is not needed now. Yes I do pray for healing though in my 55 years many of my prayers have been answered through the natural providence of Our Lord and many have not. :)

The practical view or belief that the supernatural gifts have passed is that I do not waste my time asking God to heal my Children that have CF, or that my nephew be miraculously healed of GBM (brain cancer). I know this sounds odd to most Christians today, but I trust in God's natural providential workings which is how He works today.
 

KGP

Puritan Board Freshman
We would hold to the Lord still able to do miracles/healings even today, but not anyone gifted to do them. correct?
This is the distinction that is often missed. Charismatics will say "You don't believe God heals today" if you assert that Benny Hinn does not have the Biblical gift of healing, does not have an "anointing" etc. That's a non sequitur. Saying that the gift of healing has ceased is not the same as saying that healing itself has ceased.
Very helpful when using the apostles as an example of 'gift' healing to note that they were given *authority* to heal and cast out demons, so that they were actually able to heal and cast our demons on command (with some exception if you recall the types of demons who only come out through prayer and fasting; another discussion)

While I hold that God does heal today through simple prayer in the name of Jesus (aka according to God's sovereign will), and while some people maybe see or experience more answers to prayer regarding healing than others do; I don't call it a gift in the biblical sense simply because the apostolic gift was absolutely unparalleled in it's efficacy to heal; and unique in it's authority.

Today believers are under the charge to go and preach the gospel to every nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey whatsoever Jesus has commanded us. We have divine authority to do those things.

Incidentally the more 'authority' people try to claim when praying for healing; the more cultic it can seem. I saw a video of a Bethel student praying for healing for someone and it was like he was summoning some power from another world, that sort of nonsense is dangerous.

But Jesus said to be persistent in prayer; and to ask according to his will; and since we have both such a great High Priest and also a Heavenly Father who calls us to make our requests known to him, I encourage people to pray for healing by simply asking God for it according to his will and then resting on his providence. Doing so is always a good reminder for me that he not only is able to heal now in a temporary sense, but also will in a short time renew all things by his omnipotence. Whatever healing we receive is an encouragement, a cause for praise and a faint foretaste of that great day; and when no healing comes; we are challenged not to be disappointed but rather to continue on in patience as we wait for the Lord from heaven to return.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top