Brian Withnell
Puritan Board Junior
Like I said, you did well.
What was the key text for your Millennium position?
- Thread starter ewenlin
- Start date
- Status
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Many of us postmils are amils in the sense that we believe the millennium started in the first century.
The difference is that we believe there will be earthly progress. That progress has already being going on over the past 2,000 years.
I don't know how any amil can read the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven, and not believe in the progress of the Gospel in this millenial period. The Silver Age spoken of by postmils, is just the stage where the Gospel becomes so pervasive and effective, that nations as nations recognise Christ, wars come to an end, the Jews believe, false religion including the papacy withers away, etc. It' not a specific third age, it's just the Gospel message being received more widely and deeply.
If we look at the work of Satan over the past 2,000 years, we will see that every time he has sought to stop the Gospel's progress he has been thwarted.
1. When Jesus was born he tried to kill Him through Herod and failed.
2. He tempted Jesus in the desert and failed to get Him to sin.
3. He tempted Jesus through Simon Peter's words and failed.
4. He tried to destroy Jesus through the Crucifixion and failed; indeed he was fatally wounded in the encounter and is now like a dying serpent with a fatal head wound (Gen. 3:15)
5. He raised up the Jews against the church, but Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews dispersed in God's judgment.
6. He used the Roman Empire against God's church, but it was eventually Christianised and then came to an end.
7. The church became paganised and Romanised through Satan's lies, but he couldn't stop the Reformation from happening.
8. The Christian Humanism of the Renaissance eventually gave way to Secular Humanism via the flowering of rationalistic, empiricistic and sceptical thinking in the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. This led in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries to Darwinism and a thoroughly naturalistic account of the world, and also to Liberal/Modernistic, Neo-Orthodox and other heretical theologies, and also aberrant political movements.
In spite of this, the Evil One could not prevent massive evangelical revivals in Britain and the U.S. in the eighteenth and ninetennth centuries, and the spread of the Gospel around the globe from the eighteenth century to the present day.
(a) Fascism (Nationalistic Humanism) - This was largely defeated in WW II.
(b) Communism (Marxist Humanism) - This was largely defeated in 1989.
(c) The third ugly sister is Secular Humanistic democratic societies and governments. With the (partial) collapse of modernism into postmodernism and the multitudinous problems that secular humanism brings in its wake to Western society, this is already showing signs of strain. It is also showing signs in places of hardening into a persecutory "politically correct" atheistic/agnostic fundamentalism.
When postmodern secular humanism collapses, Christianity will advance with even greater vigour. The gates of Hell can hinder the advance of the Gospel only for so long. The Devil's time is short, and he knows it. That is why he is getting wilder and nastier!
The difference is that we believe there will be earthly progress. That progress has already being going on over the past 2,000 years.
I don't know how any amil can read the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven, and not believe in the progress of the Gospel in this millenial period. The Silver Age spoken of by postmils, is just the stage where the Gospel becomes so pervasive and effective, that nations as nations recognise Christ, wars come to an end, the Jews believe, false religion including the papacy withers away, etc. It' not a specific third age, it's just the Gospel message being received more widely and deeply.
If we look at the work of Satan over the past 2,000 years, we will see that every time he has sought to stop the Gospel's progress he has been thwarted.
1. When Jesus was born he tried to kill Him through Herod and failed.
2. He tempted Jesus in the desert and failed to get Him to sin.
3. He tempted Jesus through Simon Peter's words and failed.
4. He tried to destroy Jesus through the Crucifixion and failed; indeed he was fatally wounded in the encounter and is now like a dying serpent with a fatal head wound (Gen. 3:15)
5. He raised up the Jews against the church, but Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews dispersed in God's judgment.
6. He used the Roman Empire against God's church, but it was eventually Christianised and then came to an end.
7. The church became paganised and Romanised through Satan's lies, but he couldn't stop the Reformation from happening.
8. The Christian Humanism of the Renaissance eventually gave way to Secular Humanism via the flowering of rationalistic, empiricistic and sceptical thinking in the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. This led in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries to Darwinism and a thoroughly naturalistic account of the world, and also to Liberal/Modernistic, Neo-Orthodox and other heretical theologies, and also aberrant political movements.
In spite of this, the Evil One could not prevent massive evangelical revivals in Britain and the U.S. in the eighteenth and ninetennth centuries, and the spread of the Gospel around the globe from the eighteenth century to the present day.
(a) Fascism (Nationalistic Humanism) - This was largely defeated in WW II.
(b) Communism (Marxist Humanism) - This was largely defeated in 1989.
(c) The third ugly sister is Secular Humanistic democratic societies and governments. With the (partial) collapse of modernism into postmodernism and the multitudinous problems that secular humanism brings in its wake to Western society, this is already showing signs of strain. It is also showing signs in places of hardening into a persecutory "politically correct" atheistic/agnostic fundamentalism.
When postmodern secular humanism collapses, Christianity will advance with even greater vigour. The gates of Hell can hinder the advance of the Gospel only for so long. The Devil's time is short, and he knows it. That is why he is getting wilder and nastier!
Last edited:
Brian Withnell
Puritan Board Junior
I think the big difference between a post-mil and a-mil is that post-mil sees the triumph of the church as this world, a-mil sees the church's victory as inevitable in eternity and marching forth as the bringing in of all the elect. When I read anything about the church victorious, I see it as the continual regeneration of those who are the bride of Christ. I see that as totally separate from this world. When I read that all kingdoms of this earth will fall, it fits perfectly with the same work of saving out of the world the bride.
Sometimes I have heard it said that Christ will not return to a tattered bride, but of course that is true, because he has been making more and more of his bride perfect in the new age as more and more of the elect are taken from this world. There will always be poor among us, but in heaven the bride of Christ is being made perfect. When Jesus returns with his bride, the remnant of imperfection (those few that are still on the earth) will be cleansed in a moment and be made perfect with those who went on before. No matter how "good" the bride here is, it will be tainted with sin and in this age will always be tattered and poor (that portion that is still in this world). When the new heavens and new earth are created, the bride will be washed pure and the imperfect will put on perfection.
Christ will not have a tattered bride, but the bride that he has will not be a bride of this age, but of the next.
John tells us that we are God's children, yet we do not yet know what we will be. The partial realization of the promise is already here in that we are truly saved. But we hope for what we do not have. Our hope is not in this age.
Sometimes I have heard it said that Christ will not return to a tattered bride, but of course that is true, because he has been making more and more of his bride perfect in the new age as more and more of the elect are taken from this world. There will always be poor among us, but in heaven the bride of Christ is being made perfect. When Jesus returns with his bride, the remnant of imperfection (those few that are still on the earth) will be cleansed in a moment and be made perfect with those who went on before. No matter how "good" the bride here is, it will be tainted with sin and in this age will always be tattered and poor (that portion that is still in this world). When the new heavens and new earth are created, the bride will be washed pure and the imperfect will put on perfection.
Christ will not have a tattered bride, but the bride that he has will not be a bride of this age, but of the next.
In this age, there is no doubt that those in Christ not only are tattered, but filthy (apart from Christ). We will not reach sinlessness, and saying that Christ's bride will not be tattered (meaning the church will be radiant and victorious in this age) to me is not seeing sin for the utter sinfulness it creates. Christ's bride can only be pure and sinless when all the members of the body of his bride and pure and sinless. We are in the coming age sinless, but not yet.
John tells us that we are God's children, yet we do not yet know what we will be. The partial realization of the promise is already here in that we are truly saved. But we hope for what we do not have. Our hope is not in this age.
If the church is not persecuted in this age, it is not the church.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't think anything will be perfect in this life or in this age, but I do believe in the progress of the Gospel against the evil in this world. Things like the nations being converted as nations, the Jews being converted, the downfall of Romanism and all false religion, world peace, are just the working out in history of the beneficial effects of the Gospel, when a greater and greater proportion of the world is converted.
That is why the focus is on Christ's Second Coming in the Bible, which corresponds to death in individual eschatology. There is no fundamental change until Christ's return. Before then the Millennial Kingdom is a gradual swallowing-up of the kingdoms of the earth by Christ's peaceful Kingdom through the Gospel. The Earth has been given to Christ de iure and since the first century He has been taking possession of it de facto slowly but surely.
Sometimes amils are postmils that have lost their nerve.
The fact that the focus of the Bible is on the consummate Golden Age at Christ's return, doesn't negate those passages that speak of the victorious progress of Christ's Gospel against all foes. This Silver Age is getting brighter and brighter.
That is why the focus is on Christ's Second Coming in the Bible, which corresponds to death in individual eschatology. There is no fundamental change until Christ's return. Before then the Millennial Kingdom is a gradual swallowing-up of the kingdoms of the earth by Christ's peaceful Kingdom through the Gospel. The Earth has been given to Christ de iure and since the first century He has been taking possession of it de facto slowly but surely.
Sometimes amils are postmils that have lost their nerve.
The fact that the focus of the Bible is on the consummate Golden Age at Christ's return, doesn't negate those passages that speak of the victorious progress of Christ's Gospel against all foes. This Silver Age is getting brighter and brighter.
Roldan
Puritan Board Junior
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
You brother Richard are a closet AMil.........
Well maybe the postmils that you have been in touch with have been overstating what the postmillennium will/does involve.
I don't believe as some amils do that good and evil will always grow equally together, although there is a sense in which as Satan gets wilder and wilder as his strategies are overcome by the Gospel and providence, he does stir people up to be wickeder. But unlike amils I believe there will come a point in the history of the world and church where true Christianity becomes so dominant that the nations will become self-consciously Christian etc. Satan will run out of strategies and be swamped by the Gospel.
That is what I believe Revelation 19 is about. Not the visible Second Advent of Christ at the end of the world (although there may be a faint foreshadowing of that there), but the utter defeat of all of Christ's enemies in history through the Word, the Church, the Holy Spirit and Divine Providence.
Well maybe the postmils that you have been in touch with have been overstating what the postmillennium will/does involve.
I don't believe as some amils do that good and evil will always grow equally together, although there is a sense in which as Satan gets wilder and wilder as his strategies are overcome by the Gospel and providence, he does stir people up to be wickeder. But unlike amils I believe there will come a point in the history of the world and church where true Christianity becomes so dominant that the nations will become self-consciously Christian etc. Satan will run out of strategies and be swamped by the Gospel.
That is what I believe Revelation 19 is about. Not the visible Second Advent of Christ at the end of the world (although there may be a faint foreshadowing of that there), but the utter defeat of all of Christ's enemies in history through the Word, the Church, the Holy Spirit and Divine Providence.
- Status
