What will Christ's Return be like?

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ChananBachiyr

Puritan Board Freshman
What will Christ's return be like?

Earlier posts have biblically concluded that He will literally, physically return, but I'm curious about something.

Will He return, to a certain part of the world, and we'll all need to seek Him out and discern whether or not He is the true Christ?

Or will it be obvious? Will the world see Him descending on the clouds?

Will the world and life as we know it come to a halt when He returns because that'll be judgment time?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, is it possible that He has already returned?

(I don't believe that He has, but a fb friend is believing this false Christ and I'm not sure how to explain why Christ couldn't have come again yet.)
 
I read about the infamous Scot Mcknight's objections to a second coming. It was that Christ would only be doing handshaking. How ridiculous for a mere man to say. It is true that the Lord has made the wisdom of man foolishness.
Anyway, I have been studying further this issue and full Preterism has no consistent foundation. It is an internet phenomenon, largely, with a few loud and forever in the cage stage. They are basically reverse dispensationalists.
The easiest way to refute it is that Christ's second coming to judge the world, not his coming in the clouds on Jerusalem, is always mentioned with the resurrection of the dead.
 
Christ's return that is...
I've just spent the last 2 months gathering New Testament verses about the return of Jesus, and especially what Jesus Himself said about His return, and organized them into different studies.
... and we'll all need to seek Him out and discern whether or not He is the true Christ? Or will it be obvious? Will the world see Him descending on the clouds?
I will do a follow up post with a gathering together of verses which answer these questions. It will be a bit lengthy.
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, is it possible that He has already returned?[/QUOTE}
Nope. See the next post with its gathering of verses.
 
I will do a follow up post with a gathering together of verses which answer these questions. It will be a bit lengthy.
The Coming Of The Son Of Man Will Not Be Hidden

  • Matt. 24:23-25 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

    Matt. 24:26-27 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Mark 13:21-23 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

    Luke 17:23-24 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming In The Clouds

  • Matt. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matt. 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Rev. 1:7-8 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
The Son Of Man Will Come In Glory

  • Matt. 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Matt. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matt. 25:31a When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,...

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
The Son Of Man Will Come With His Angels

  • Matt. 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Matt. 25:31a When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,...

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
The Son Of Man Will Come With His Angels, And They Will Gather His Elect

  • Matt. 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    1 Thess. 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
  • them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    • preceed
    2 Thess. 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The Son Of Man Will Come Quickly, Without Warning

  • Matt. 24:30,36 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ... But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Matt. 24:37-39 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Matt. 24:42-44 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Matt. 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

    James 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    Rev. 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 
First off when Jesus returns it will be with ALL the saints. Those that are alive will be changed, and those who preceded them in physical death will have the resurrected bodies that were in the grave. :)
 
First off when Jesus returns it will be with ALL the saints. Those that are alive will be changed, and those who preceded them in physical death will have the resurrected bodies that were in the grave. :)
Earls first sentence comes from:

1 Thess. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.​

And what our bodies will be is described in 1 Cor. 15.

A small technical point to help others understand this with better clarity. When Jesus comes in the clouds, He will come with His angels, and He will send His angels to gather His elect, both those who are alive and those who are dead. (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 1 Thess. 4:15-17; 2 Thess. 2:1-4)
 
Daniel, thanks for your collection of Scriptures. Here is an article that may be of interest to you, from in CT June 1, 2003, which was adapted from Anthony Hoekema's classic work, The Bible and the Future: Heaven: Not Just an Eternal Day Off (As if anticipating the question, Will life on the new earth be boring? the Bible points to much activity there).

From some papers I wrote for a class, touching on the "rapture",

In Revelation chapter 11, after the period of time the witnessing church fulfills her mission (all the elect of God brought into the fold through the preaching of the gospel, and the world warned of impending judgment except they repent), the beast is given to war against them and kill them (note the “given”, for it is only as God allows that His saints may be touched, as was the case with Job). After the church is wasted, left for dead and unburied (symbolic for great disrespect and hostility), the Spirit of life entered them and they stood on their feet, striking terror into the hearts of their killers, and then the great voice from Heaven shouts to them, “Come up here!”, and they are raised to be with Christ – a pure and simple cameo shot of the genuine rapture, which takes place when the 7th trumpet sounds, and the end arrives with a terrible shaking of the world.

-----

And then they hear a great voice from heaven saying to the newly alive saints, “Come up here!” Then it is written, “And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud!” This is the time of the last trumpet! This is the rapture:

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1 Cor 15:51-52)

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess 4: 16-17)

“they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matt 24:30-31)​

I am speaking from the Amillennial (or present millennium) school's point of view.
 
Do any of those passages apply to 70ad?
I on purpose try to stay away from studying various views about Jesus return, otherwise my head hurts. One thought though is to ask the question a different way. Instead of asking do any of those passages apply to 70AD, I would ask how many of them apply? What are the logical conclusions when certain ones are said to have been fulfilled in 70AD.

For example, there are passages which say that Jesus will come in the clouds, with His angles, and He will send His angels to gather His elect, both those who are alive at His coming and those who are asleep/dead in Christ will be resurrected. If that was fulfilled in 70AD then are there records of this? What happens to all of the rest of the saints who die in Christ after 70AD? Is the resurrection of the saints "past already"?

This is only a thought on how to think through part of the difficulty with these passages.
 
I on purpose try to stay away from studying various views about Jesus return, otherwise my head hurts. One thought though is to ask the question a different way. Instead of asking do any of those passages apply to 70AD, I would ask how many of them apply? What are the logical conclusions when certain ones are said to have been fulfilled in 70AD.

For example, there are passages which say that Jesus will come in the clouds, with His angles, and He will send His angels to gather His elect, both those who are alive at His coming and those who are asleep/dead in Christ will be resurrected. If that was fulfilled in 70AD then are there records of this? What happens to all of the rest of the saints who die in Christ after 70AD? Is the resurrection of the saints "past already"?

This is only a thought on how to think through part of the difficulty with these passages.
Gary Demar or Ken Gentry would give a far better answer than I could. I know some here particularly the amillennial idealists will disagree with some interpretations of certain passages they believe relate to the second coming.
 
A short answer to the OP's opening question: Christ's return will be awesome (in the original sense of that word) and it will be unmistakable.
 
What will Christ's return be like?

Earlier posts have biblically concluded that He will literally, physically return, but I'm curious about something.

Will He return, to a certain part of the world, and we'll all need to seek Him out and discern whether or not He is the true Christ?

Or will it be obvious? Will the world see Him descending on the clouds?

Will the world and life as we know it come to a halt when He returns because that'll be judgment time?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, is it possible that He has already returned?

(I don't believe that He has, but a fb friend is believing this false Christ and I'm not sure how to explain why Christ couldn't have come again yet.)
He will appear, and all the world shall see and lnow that he is the Lord, as it will be like lightning flashing across the entire sky, and he will have the hordes of heaven with Him also.
 
With regard to the Amillennial school’s view, pastor and prof David Engelsma in his book, Christ’s Spiritual Kingdom: A Defense of Reformed Amillennialism, says in the Preface,

I defend as Reformed, biblical truth the view of the end known as amillennialism . . . The seriousness of the controversy is that the nature of the gospel is at stake. (p 1)​

What Engelsma means by that is the nature of the New Testament age differs radically between the differing views, namely the pre- and postmil from the amil. He rightly says,

Vigorous defense of (Reformed) amillennialism as God’s own truth about the end-times, against premillennialism and postmillennialism, is rare today. (Ibid.)​

He wrote this in 2001, a couple of years before Riddlebarger wrote his book in 2003. The beauty of Engelsma’s book is its brevity, simplicity of style, and interaction with actual responses from postmillennialists (Gary Demar and Gary North) to his articles in the PRC’s journal, The Standard Bearer. It makes for very interesting reading. Whereas Riddlebarger’s work is more academic, Englesma’s is hand-to-hand combat, as it were.

Below I’ll post a chapter from Engelsma’s book (from the online version of it – identical with the hardcopy book), although I must say the hardcopy has more chapters and pertinent material in it. Below I give urls to the online material, and the Amazon paperback.

I will also give a link here to the online version of a classic article by Engelsma, “The Messianic Kingdom and Civil Government”, in the Protestant Reformed Theological Journal.

Be it known I am not just “cut and pasting” stuff, but am willing and able to defend from my own mind and heart the amillennial view, also, with DJE, seeing it as a vital matter concerning the gospel of God. I just wanted to fire a first volley in “vigorous defense”. Sound doctrine in these days is no game, or merely academic matter. Forgive, please, the length of this material – I post it for edifying purposes for those who love the truth.

So here is chapter ten of DJE’s hardcopy book:

______


A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism. Matthew 24

https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/articles/defense-reformed-amillennialism-4-matthew-24

Postmillennialism in the Reformed churches teaches the saints to expect an earthly victory in the future before the coming of Christ. The majority of the human race will be converted to Christ and added to the church. The world will be "Christianized." Christians will govern all nations, controlling all aspects of national life. Christians will dominate whatever ungodly remain, punishing them for misbehavior and compelling them to obey the laws of God.

There will be no great departure from the faith by Christian churches and professing Christians in the future.

There will be no Antichrist and antichristian world-kingdom in the future.

There will be no great persecution, or tribulation, of the true church in the future.

To this, the Reformed student of the Bible reacts with astonishment. His astonishment is due partly to his awareness of ongoing developments in history in both the church and the world.

No great falling away in the sphere of the church? What about the enormous departure in the early post-apostolic and medieval church that resulted in the false church of Roman Catholicism? What about the dreadful apostasy in Protestantism that began soon after the Reformation and that continues at this very moment? Theological modernism has already destroyed multitudes in the mainline churches and eats like a cancer in churches that have yet the name of orthodoxy. The lie of Arminianism dominates much of fundamentalism and evangelicalism. The false gospel of the charismatic movement seduces many others.

No gathering of the nations under one diabolical head by the spirit of autonomous, deified man? What then is the meaning of the relentless rejection in the West of every vestige of Christian influence in national life? How is it to be explained that the "Christian nations" systematically repudiate the authority of the sovereign God as expressed in His law, not only in Scripture but also, and even, in nature, and decree instead man's own will in bold defiance of the will of God? Why the official, national banishment of God and His law from the schools? Why the official, national legislating of the murder of millions of unborn? Why the official, national approval of homosexuality?

If there is to be no union of the nations as the kingdom of Antichrist, why is there the definite coming together of all the nations on earth, East and West, "Christian" and non- Christian, on the basis of their common insistence that man and his happiness are the main thing, indeed, the only thing?

Is this not the spirit of Antichrist? Is this not the spirit of the man who will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped (II Thess. 2:4)? Is this not the forming of the world kingdom the number of whose name will be 666—the number of man independent of God—and which will be a gigantic blasphemy against God, Christ, the church, and the saints (Rev. 13)?

No coming of worldwide, intense persecution, when we can already sense, in the "Christian West," that the increasingly antichristian state will turn on those who call abortion murder, who condemn homosexuality as perversion, who cannot yield to feminism in church or family, who confess, in short, that Jesus is Lord?

The postmillennialist will disdain this as "newspaper exegesis." The fact is, nevertheless, that the Christian can and must see the signs in history of the Lord's coming. Christ Himself commands and commends this (Matt. 16:3; Matt. 24). The apostle of Christ made the signs of apostasy and of Antichrist the guard against foolish expectation of the day of Christ at any moment (II Thess. 2:1-3).

The happy predictions of postmillennialism for the church in the world are overthrown by 2,000 years of history.

Postmillennialism's denial of apostasy, antichrist, and persecution is refuted by historical events.

Amillennialism, on the other hand, rings true to history, past and present. To refer only to this one vital element in the controversy, the true church has always been and is today the remnant according to the election of grace. When and where has the true church ever been the majority? It was the remnant in apostolic times; it was the remnant at the time of the Reformation; it is the remnant today. Why, even in Israel/ Judah, it was the remnant.

Awareness of developments in the world in light of the prophecy of the Holy Scriptures is not, however, the main reason for the astonishment of the Reformed Christian at the dream-world of postmillennialism. His amazement at postmillennialism's rosy forecast of the earthly future is mainly due to the contrary testimony of the Bible.

What of the apostles' prediction of departure from the faith in the last days in II Thessalonians 2:3; II Timothy 3, 4; II Peter 2; and I John 2:18, 19?

What of the apostle's warning of a coming Antichrist in II Thessalonians 2?

What of the apostle's alerting the saints to an impending tribulation as an element of those things that must shortly come to pass before the coming of the Lord, in the book of Revelation, e.g., Rev. 3:10; Rev. 6:9-11; Rev. 7:9-17; Rev. 11:1-12; Rev. 12:17; Rev. 13; Rev. 14:9-13; Rev. 15:2; Rev. 16; Rev. 17; Rev. 19:2, 19-21; and Rev. 20:4, 7-10?

The answer given by the postmillennialist, particularly the "Christian Reconstructionist" (such as Gary DeMar, who asked for this biblical defense of amillennialism), to all of these astonished questions by the Reformed Christian is that all of the prophecies of apostasy, Antichrist, and tribulation have already been completely fulfilled. They are past events. The church of A. D. 1995 does not need to concern herself with them. Nothing of them is yet future. All was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70.

Postmillennialist Gary DeMar writes, "It is unbiblical to use the term 'Antichrist' for a present-day or future political ruler. The proper context is theological and pre-A. D. 70" (Last Days Madness, p. 204).

The same author has written that the church must "recognize that the Great Tribulation is a past event." For "the tribulation had reference to the Jews, the people of Judea." It was "the destruction of Jerusalem" (Last Days, pp. 119, 110).

The exegetical basis of "Christian Reconstruction's" grand vision of a "Christianized" world—the victory of the gospel in history—is largely the interpretation of Matthew 24 by J. Marcellus Kik. The Presbyterian's interpretation of Jesus' eschatological discourse has been reprinted in a book titled, An Eschatology of Victory (Presbyterian and Reformed, 1971), pp. 53-173.

Kik explains the chapter in such a way that verses 4-31 refer exclusively to the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in A. D. 70. Nothing in these verses refers at all to Jesus' second coming and the events that immediately precede His coming. The abomination of desolation in verse 15 refers only to the desecration of the temple by the "idolatrous ensigns" of the invading Roman army (p. 104). The "great tribulation" of verse 21 refers only to the suffering of the Jews at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. The false Christs and false prophets of verse 24 refer only to the pretender-Messiahs and false teachers among the Jews at that time.

The "coming of the Son of man" in verses 27 and 30 is not the visible, bodily return of Christ, but His revelation in the preaching of the gospel by the apostles. The gathering of the elect by the angels in verse 31 is the spiritual saving of the elect through the gospel. "Angels" are human preachers.

The preliminary signs in the heavens of verse 29 are not the literal darkening of the sun and moon, prior to Jesus' second coming, but the going out of the figurative light of the Jews as a nation in A. D. 70. "The sun of Judaism has been darkened" (p. 128). The shaking of the powers of the heavens in verse 29 "refers to Satan and his angels" (p. 133).

The basis for this understanding of Matthew 24:4-31 according to Kik and his "Christian Reconstruction" disciples is Jesus' word in verse 34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Kik explains this word as meaning, very simply, that every single prophecy of Christ in verses 4-31 was fulfilled, exhaustively, in the lifetime of the generation that was alive at the time of Jesus' instruction. All was exhaustively fulfilled in A. D. 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem. Nothing foretold in verses 4-31 pertains to the second coming.

The key to Matthew Twenty-four is verse 34.... Every thing mentioned in the previous verses were (sic) to be fulfilled before the contemporary generation would pass away.... The first thirty-four verses of Matthew 24, along with verse 35 deal with the destruction of Jerusalem (pp. 59, 60, 67).​

Gary DeMar agrees:

The events rehearsed in the Olivet Discourse are signs leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. These chapters have nothing to do with when Jesus will return at the final judgment. There are no observable signs leading up to His bodily return (Last Days, p. 151).​

This interpretation of Matthew 24 is basic to the postmillennial denial of apostasy, Antichrist, and great tribulation for the church in the future. For in the light of this explanation of Matthew 24, the postmillennialist goes through the entire New Testament rigorously applying all prediction of such things to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Fundamental to this interpretation of Matthew 24 is Kik's explanation of verse 34, the "key" to the chapter. If Kik is wrong here, his whole postmillennial conception of the earthly future collapses like a house of cards.

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Does Christ teach that every last particular in the preceding verses was fulfilled exhaustively in A. D. 70? We shall see.

—DJE

_________

The online version: http://www.reformedspokane.org/Doctrine_pages/The second coming of Christ/Defense of Amillennialism/Defense of Amillennialism02.html

More in the online series: https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/series/A-Defense-of-(Reformed)-Amillennialism

Paperback at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Christs-Spiritual-Kingdom-Reformed-Amillennialism/dp/0971659206
 
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With regard to the Amillennial school’s view, pastor and prof David Engelsma in his book, Christ’s Spiritual Kingdom: A Defense of Reformed Amillennialism, says in the Preface,

I defend as Reformed, biblical truth the view of the end known as amillennialism . . . The seriousness of the controversy is that the nature of the gospel is at stake. (p 1)​

What Engelsma means by that is the nature of the New Testament age differs radically between the differing views, namely the pre- and postmil from the amil. He rightly says,

Vigorous defense of (Reformed) amillennialism as God’s own truth about the end-times, against premillennialism and postmillennialism, is rare today. (Ibid.)​

He wrote this in 2001, a couple of years before Riddlebarger wrote his book in 2003. The beauty of Engelsma’s book is its brevity, simplicity of style, and interaction with actual responses from postmillennialists (Gary Demar and Gary North) to his articles in the PRC’s journal, The Standard Bearer. It makes for very interesting reading. Whereas Riddlebarger’s work is more academic, Englesma’s is hand-to-hand combat, as it were.

Below I’ll post a chapter from Engelsma’s book (from the online version of it – identical with the hardcopy book), although I must say the hardcopy has more chapters and pertinent material in it. Below I give urls to the online material, and the Amazon paperback.

I will also give a link here to the online version of a classic article by Engelsma, “The Messianic Kingdom and Civil Government”, in the Protestant Reformed Theological Journal.

Be it known I am not just “cut and pasting” stuff, but am willing and able to defend from my own mind and heart the amillennial view, also, with DJE, seeing it as a vital matter concerning the gospel of God. I just wanted to fire a first volley in “vigorous defense”. Sound doctrine in these days is no game, or merely academic matter. Forgive, please, the length of this material – I post it for edifying purposes for those who love the truth.

So here is chapter ten of DJE’s hardcopy book:

______


A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism. Matthew 24

https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/articles/defense-reformed-amillennialism-4-matthew-24

Postmillennialism in the Reformed churches teaches the saints to expect an earthly victory in the future before the coming of Christ. The majority of the human race will be converted to Christ and added to the church. The world will be "Christianized." Christians will govern all nations, controlling all aspects of national life. Christians will dominate whatever ungodly remain, punishing them for misbehavior and compelling them to obey the laws of God.

There will be no great departure from the faith by Christian churches and professing Christians in the future.

There will be no Antichrist and antichristian world-kingdom in the future.

There will be no great persecution, or tribulation, of the true church in the future.

To this, the Reformed student of the Bible reacts with astonishment. His astonishment is due partly to his awareness of ongoing developments in history in both the church and the world.

No great falling away in the sphere of the church? What about the enormous departure in the early post-apostolic and medieval church that resulted in the false church of Roman Catholicism? What about the dreadful apostasy in Protestantism that began soon after the Reformation and that continues at this very moment? Theological modernism has already destroyed multitudes in the mainline churches and eats like a cancer in churches that have yet the name of orthodoxy. The lie of Arminianism dominates much of fundamentalism and evangelicalism. The false gospel of the charismatic movement seduces many others.

No gathering of the nations under one diabolical head by the spirit of autonomous, deified man? What then is the meaning of the relentless rejection in the West of every vestige of Christian influence in national life? How is it to be explained that the "Christian nations" systematically repudiate the authority of the sovereign God as expressed in His law, not only in Scripture but also, and even, in nature, and decree instead man's own will in bold defiance of the will of God? Why the official, national banishment of God and His law from the schools? Why the official, national legislating of the murder of millions of unborn? Why the official, national approval of homosexuality?

If there is to be no union of the nations as the kingdom of Antichrist, why is there the definite coming together of all the nations on earth, East and West, "Christian" and non- Christian, on the basis of their common insistence that man and his happiness are the main thing, indeed, the only thing?

Is this not the spirit of Antichrist? Is this not the spirit of the man who will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped (II Thess. 2:4)? Is this not the forming of the world kingdom the number of whose name will be 666—the number of man independent of God—and which will be a gigantic blasphemy against God, Christ, the church, and the saints (Rev. 13)?

No coming of worldwide, intense persecution, when we can already sense, in the "Christian West," that the increasingly antichristian state will turn on those who call abortion murder, who condemn homosexuality as perversion, who cannot yield to feminism in church or family, who confess, in short, that Jesus is Lord?

The postmillennialist will disdain this as "newspaper exegesis." The fact is, nevertheless, that the Christian can and must see the signs in history of the Lord's coming. Christ Himself commands and commends this (Matt. 16:3; Matt. 24). The apostle of Christ made the signs of apostasy and of Antichrist the guard against foolish expectation of the day of Christ at any moment (II Thess. 2:1-3).

The happy predictions of postmillennialism for the church in the world are overthrown by 2,000 years of history.

Postmillennialism's denial of apostasy, antichrist, and persecution is refuted by historical events.

Amillennialism, on the other hand, rings true to history, past and present. To refer only to this one vital element in the controversy, the true church has always been and is today the remnant according to the election of grace. When and where has the true church ever been the majority? It was the remnant in apostolic times; it was the remnant at the time of the Reformation; it is the remnant today. Why, even in Israel/ Judah, it was the remnant.

Awareness of developments in the world in light of the prophecy of the Holy Scriptures is not, however, the main reason for the astonishment of the Reformed Christian at the dream-world of postmillennialism. His amazement at postmillennialism's rosy forecast of the earthly future is mainly due to the contrary testimony of the Bible.

What of the apostles' prediction of departure from the faith in the last days in II Thessalonians 2:3; II Timothy 3, 4; II Peter 2; and I John 2:18, 19?

What of the apostle's warning of a coming Antichrist in II Thessalonians 2?

What of the apostle's alerting the saints to an impending tribulation as an element of those things that must shortly come to pass before the coming of the Lord, in the book of Revelation, e.g., Rev. 3:10; Rev. 6:9-11; Rev. 7:9-17; Rev. 11:1-12; Rev. 12:17; Rev. 13; Rev. 14:9-13; Rev. 15:2; Rev. 16; Rev. 17; Rev. 19:2, 19-21; and Rev. 20:4, 7-10?

The answer given by the postmillennialist, particularly the "Christian Reconstructionist" (such as Gary DeMar, who asked for this biblical defense of amillennialism), to all of these astonished questions by the Reformed Christian is that all of the prophecies of apostasy, Antichrist, and tribulation have already been completely fulfilled. They are past events. The church of A. D. 1995 does not need to concern herself with them. Nothing of them is yet future. All was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70.

Postmillennialist Gary DeMar writes, "It is unbiblical to use the term 'Antichrist' for a present-day or future political ruler. The proper context is theological and pre-A. D. 70" (Last Days Madness, p. 204).

The same author has written that the church must "recognize that the Great Tribulation is a past event." For "the tribulation had reference to the Jews, the people of Judea." It was "the destruction of Jerusalem" (Last Days, pp. 119, 110).

The exegetical basis of "Christian Reconstruction's" grand vision of a "Christianized" world—the victory of the gospel in history—is largely the interpretation of Matthew 24 by J. Marcellus Kik. The Presbyterian's interpretation of Jesus' eschatological discourse has been reprinted in a book titled, An Eschatology of Victory (Presbyterian and Reformed, 1971), pp. 53-173.

Kik explains the chapter in such a way that verses 4-31 refer exclusively to the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in A. D. 70. Nothing in these verses refers at all to Jesus' second coming and the events that immediately precede His coming. The abomination of desolation in verse 15 refers only to the desecration of the temple by the "idolatrous ensigns" of the invading Roman army (p. 104). The "great tribulation" of verse 21 refers only to the suffering of the Jews at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. The false Christs and false prophets of verse 24 refer only to the pretender-Messiahs and false teachers among the Jews at that time.

The "coming of the Son of man" in verses 27 and 30 is not the visible, bodily return of Christ, but His revelation in the preaching of the gospel by the apostles. The gathering of the elect by the angels in verse 31 is the spiritual saving of the elect through the gospel. "Angels" are human preachers.

The preliminary signs in the heavens of verse 29 are not the literal darkening of the sun and moon, prior to Jesus' second coming, but the going out of the figurative light of the Jews as a nation in A. D. 70. "The sun of Judaism has been darkened" (p. 128). The shaking of the powers of the heavens in verse 29 "refers to Satan and his angels" (p. 133).

The basis for this understanding of Matthew 24:4-31 according to Kik and his "Christian Reconstruction" disciples is Jesus' word in verse 34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Kik explains this word as meaning, very simply, that every single prophecy of Christ in verses 4-31 was fulfilled, exhaustively, in the lifetime of the generation that was alive at the time of Jesus' instruction. All was exhaustively fulfilled in A. D. 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem. Nothing foretold in verses 4-31 pertains to the second coming.

The key to Matthew Twenty-four is verse 34.... Every thing mentioned in the previous verses were (sic) to be fulfilled before the contemporary generation would pass away.... The first thirty-four verses of Matthew 24, along with verse 35 deal with the destruction of Jerusalem (pp. 59, 60, 67).​

Gary DeMar agrees:

The events rehearsed in the Olivet Discourse are signs leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. These chapters have nothing to do with when Jesus will return at the final judgment. There are no observable signs leading up to His bodily return (Last Days, p. 151).​

This interpretation of Matthew 24 is basic to the postmillennial denial of apostasy, Antichrist, and great tribulation for the church in the future. For in the light of this explanation of Matthew 24, the postmillennialist goes through the entire New Testament rigorously applying all prediction of such things to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Fundamental to this interpretation of Matthew 24 is Kik's explanation of verse 34, the "key" to the chapter. If Kik is wrong here, his whole postmillennial conception of the earthly future collapses like a house of cards.

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Does Christ teach that every last particular in the preceding verses was fulfilled exhaustively in A. D. 70? We shall see.

—DJE

_________

The online version: http://www.reformedspokane.org/Doctrine_pages/The second coming of Christ/Defense of Amillennialism/Defense of Amillennialism02.html

More in the online series: https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/series/A-Defense-of-(Reformed)-Amillennialism

Paperback at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Christs-Spiritual-Kingdom-Reformed-Amillennialism/dp/0971659206
This is a ridiculous caricature of postmillennialism. I've never met a postmillennialist who denied that the church would face tribulation, persecution, and apostasy.
 
Hello Tyler,

A “ridiculous caricature”? I don’t think so. Yes, postmils will allow for “tribulation, persecution, and apostasy” in the short run, but in the long run, no. Things will get better and better, they say, even if it takes tens of thousands of years.

To deny tribulation in the short run (the church age thus far) would simply brand postmils as having their heads in the sand. But relegating all the “tribulation, persecution, and apostasy” of Revelation back to AD 70 leaves the scenario of “Jewish dreams” of worldly dominion (contra the Second Helvetic Confession – and Engelsma’s article on it) open for realization.

Rather, as DJE points out, world history over the last 2,000 years shows the postmil dream as false. But all you have to do is keep saying, “Well, sooner or later it will come to pass.” The Scripture declares that a lie, calling the church age “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4).
 
Hello Tyler,

A “ridiculous caricature”? I don’t think so. Yes, postmils will allow for “tribulation, persecution, and apostasy” in the short run, but in the long run, no. Things will get better and better, they say, even if it takes tens of thousands of years.

To deny tribulation in the short run (the church age thus far) would simply brand postmils as having their heads in the sand. But relegating all the “tribulation, persecution, and apostasy” of Revelation back to AD 70 leaves the scenario of “Jewish dreams” of worldly dominion (contra the Second Helvetic Confession – and Engelsma’s article on it) open for realization.

Rather, as DJE points out, world history over the last 2,000 years shows the postmil dream as false. But all you have to do is keep saying, “Well, sooner or later it will come to pass.” The Scripture declares that a lie, calling the church age “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4).
At best, this is a refutation of partial preterist postmillennialism (though I'm not at all convinced that it is sufficient even in this). It doesn't touch the historicist or idealist school.

The fact is, amid persecutions and trials, there has been a discernable trend of progress for the Christian religion over the last 2000 years.

We're certainly off topic for this thread, but since you threw out a gross misrepresentation, I didn't want to let it go unaddressed.
 
At best, this is a refutation of partial preterist postmillennialism (though I'm not at all convinced that it is sufficient even in this). It doesn't touch the historicist or idealist school.

The fact is, amid persecutions and trials, there has been a discernable trend of progress for the Christian religion over the last 2000 years.

We're certainly off topic for this thread, but since you threw out a gross misrepresentation, I didn't want to let it go unaddressed.
The scriptures can be used to support as viable options either Pre/Post/A Mil viewpoints, with full pretierist the only one unable to be sustained
And do think that the world conditions will be getting worse until the time of the Second Coming..
 
Hello Tyler,

A “ridiculous caricature”? I don’t think so. Yes, postmils will allow for “tribulation, persecution, and apostasy” in the short run, but in the long run, no. Things will get better and better, they say, even if it takes tens of thousands of years.

To deny tribulation in the short run (the church age thus far) would simply brand postmils as having their heads in the sand. But relegating all the “tribulation, persecution, and apostasy” of Revelation back to AD 70 leaves the scenario of “Jewish dreams” of worldly dominion (contra the Second Helvetic Confession – and Engelsma’s article on it) open for realization.

Rather, as DJE points out, world history over the last 2,000 years shows the postmil dream as false. But all you have to do is keep saying, “Well, sooner or later it will come to pass.” The Scripture declares that a lie, calling the church age “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4).
There seems to be two major trends happening at same time since the time of the NT, as the Lord is still saving out His own chosen people and having His kingdom advance, but also overall society and conditions getting worse over time.
 
I fully agree with you on this issue, as have seen Christians judge others just due to if they help to one way or another.
 
Hello Tyler,

I don’t think we’re off topic for the simple reason that one’s eschatology – throughout the age, and at the eschaton – will bear directly on the thread’s OP question, “What will Christ's return be like?”

What is unusual about David Engelsma’s presentation is its simplicity, and its fervency. Yet for that it is no less cogent in its refutation of the errant view. After all, he does interact with both Gentry and with North, and another unnamed writer responding to his “Jewish Dreams” article in the Standard Bearer.

As you bring up “historicist” postmillennialism, would you be so kind as to give a thumbnail sketch of that school’s view? Ditto with an “Idealist” postmil view.

What I am opposing is the simple paradigmatic scheme of whatever might be legitimately termed postmillennial: that Revelation has been fulfilled, save for the final eschaton, in the destruction of the Jewish temple and the annulment of its covenant standing with God. That as the church grows through the preaching of the Gospel, even though it be rocky and bloody initially, there will come a time when, through the power of God’s Spirit in the Gospel preached, the nations will become “Christianized” and a golden age of godliness will emerge. This second “golden” stage after the era of proclamation is termed the millennium by the postmil. And after this “millennium” the Lord will return. I won’t get into the more detailed views of the “Christian Reconstructionists” / “Theonomists” but will stick with the basic postmil view.

The Biblical paradigm, in opposition to this, states there are only two ages:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Eph 1:20, 21 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

[aiōn can be translated age or world]​

You can see, there are only two ages. But the postmil make three ages: the early church age of initial gospel proclamation, the second golden millennial age, and the eternal age. These are all distinctly different ages, contradicting Scripture.

And the NT says of the character of the church age, it is “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4). 1 John 5:19 says, “And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”

2 Tim 3:12, 13 says, “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

It is true that the genuine church of Jesus Christ, His believing remnant in this age, will become ever more purified and glorious, even as the chaff apostatize. But this has been happening all through the church age, as each generation has suffered and been purified by affliction and persecution. Yet as we approach the end of the age this conflict between the saints of the Most High and the ungodly hordes of the prince of demons will intensify and come to a terrible climax – or shall I rather put it, the church of Jesus Christ and the denizens of global harlot Babylon – which will be what is termed Armageddon, and in the midst of it the Lord shall return, cameos of which we may see in Rev 6:14-17,

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

and also in Rev 11:7-12,

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.​

Right on the heels of this we have the great earthquake, and in verse 15 the 7th trumpet. See also, 1 Thess 4:16, 17,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Cf. 1 Cor 15:51, 52,

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

I could go on and on, but it is clear that out of great tribulation we are purified unto God, a small remnant almost overcome at the end at Armageddon, where Satan shall deceive

“the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” (Rev 20:8, 9)​

Frankly, there is not time to play with the confusions the devil has inundated us with to wrest from the camp of the saints the precious vision and understanding our Saviour has given us in His final prophecy – in the Apocalypse of John. So I will be pardoned, I hope, if I do not play the laid-back academic in these times of our great peril soon to be unleashed.

I have little patience with false narratives of the end poorly construed, whose design is to get the saints rejecting or unsure of God’s glorious revelation of His sovereign rule from the throne of His majesty due to the “end-times confusion and disarray”. Enough. I do realize that you and others genuinely mean well, and have no ill in your hearts in this matter. I realize are a godly man. I mean you no disrespect.

__________


David, were it in my power I’d send you back to Junior for this saying (post 22), “The scriptures can be used to support as viable options either Pre/Post/A Mil viewpoints”.

“Viable” means capable of life, able to succeed, to exist. They cannot all be right. Empty words don’t fly well. Slow down, please.
 
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Hello Tyler,

I don’t think we’re off topic for the simple reason that one’s eschatology – throughout the age, and at the eschaton – will bear directly on the thread’s OP question, “What will Christ's return be like?”

What is unusual about David Engelsma’s presentation is its simplicity, and its fervency. Yet for that it is no less cogent in its refutation of the errant view. After all, he does interact with both Gentry and with North, and another unnamed writer responding to his “Jewish Dreams” article in the Standard Bearer.

As you bring up “historicist” postmillennialism, would you be so kind as to give a thumbnail sketch of that school’s view? Ditto with an “Idealist” postmil view.

What I am opposing is the simple paradigmatic scheme of whatever might be legitimately termed postmillennial: that Revelation has been fulfilled, save for the final eschaton, in the destruction of the Jewish temple and the annulment of its covenant standing with God. That as the church grows through the preaching of the Gospel, even though it be rocky and bloody initially, there will come a time when, through the power of God’s Spirit in the Gospel preached, the nations will become “Christianized” and a golden age of godliness will emerge. This second “golden” stage after the era of proclamation is termed the millennium by the postmil. And after this “millennium” the Lord will return. I won’t get into the more detailed views of the “Christian Reconstructionists” / “Theonomists” but will stick with the basic postmil view.

The Biblical paradigm, in opposition to this, states there are only two ages:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Eph 1:20, 21 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

[aiōn can be translated age or world]​

You can see, there are only two ages. But the postmil make three ages: the early church age of initial gospel proclamation, the second golden millennial age, and the eternal age. These are all distinctly different ages, contradicting Scripture.

And the NT says of the character of the church age, it is “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4). 1 John 5:19 says, “And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”

2 Tim 3:12, 13 says, “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

It is true that the genuine church of Jesus Christ, His believing remnant in this age, will become ever more purified and glorious, even as the chaff apostatize. But this has been happening all through the church age, as each generation has suffered and been purified by affliction and persecution. Yet as we approach the end of the age this conflict between the saints of the Most High and the ungodly hordes of the prince of demons will intensify and come to a terrible climax – or shall I rather put it, the church of Jesus Christ and the denizens of global harlot Babylon – which will be what is termed Armageddon, and in the midst of it the Lord shall return, cameos of which we may see in Rev 6:14-17,

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

and also in Rev 11:7-12,

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.​

Right on the heels of this we have the great earthquake, and in verse 15 the 7th trumpet. See also, 1 Thess 4:16, 17,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Cf. 1 Cor 15:51, 52,

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

I could go on and on, but it is clear that out of great tribulation we are purified unto God, a small remnant almost overcome at the end at Armageddon, where Satan shall deceive

“the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” (Rev 20:8, 9)​

Frankly, there is not time to play with the confusions the devil has inundated us with to wrest from the camp of the saints the precious vision and understanding our Saviour has given us in His final prophecy – in the Apocalypse of John. So I will be pardoned, I hope, if I do not play the laid-back academic in these times of our great peril soon to be unleashed.

I have little patience with false narratives of the end poorly construed, whose design is to get the saints rejecting or unsure of God’s glorious revelation of His sovereign rule from the throne of His majesty due to the “end-times confusion and disarray”. Enough. I do realize that you and others genuinely mean well, and have no ill in your hearts in this matter. I realize are a godly man. I mean you no disrespect.

__________


David, were it in my power I’d send you back to Junior for this saying (post 22), “The scriptures can be used to support as viable options either Pre/Post/A Mil viewpoints”.

“Viable” means capable of life, able to succeed, to exist. They cannot all be right. Empty words don’t fly well. Slow down, please.
The historical Church has never said that the scriptures validate only one eschatology viewpoint, but that the pre/Post/A mils views are all acceptable to hold, as there is none that will be seen as the only right one, as we are still somewhat ignorant of how it will all go down in the end.
 
Hello David,

It is an interesting thing you bring up about the “historical church”, that it “has never said that the scriptures validate only one eschatology viewpoint”. That was because they disagreed on the matter. You go on, “but that the pre/Post/A mils views are all acceptable to hold”, which no historical church ever said. You go further, “as there is none that will be seen as the only right one”. This is in your mind, not theirs. They all had their views, which today often seem antiquated due to the end being so very far away.

The Westminster Confession of Faith 1.9 (the 1689 agreeing), takes this view of the meaning of Scripture:

The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.​

So the matter is that the doctrine has not yet been discerned to where there is a general consensus. I have often maintained that eschatology is the one area of doctrine that is still in development. With regard to certain aspects of the end times Stuart Olyott in his, Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained, thinks likewise:

“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are in those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (p 166)​

Geerhardus Vos, although speaking of discerning the Antichrist, enunciated a principle applicable at this point,

“[It] belongs among the many prophecies, whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfillment, and in regard to which it behooves the saints to exercise a peculiar kind of eschatological patience.” (The Pauline Eschatology, p. 133)​

O.T. Allis in his book, Prophecy and the Church, expressed the same sentiment:

“The usual view on this subject [‘the intelligibility of prophecy’] has been that prophecy is not intended to be fully understood before its fulfilment, that it is only when God ‘establishes the word of his servants and fulfills the counsel of his messengers,’ that the meaning and import of their words become fully manifest.” (p 25)​

So what is happening today is the laboring in the word and in doctrine, and the keen observing to see if there are any close-to-the-very-end-time prophecies that have come to pass, so we may get a somewhat general take on where we are in the scheme of prophetic fulfillment.

I labor to show the amil is the only viable contender on the field. All the others may be shown disqualified in the light of God’s word. They none of them have application to all the various churches from John's time in around 95 AD, to the Waldenses in 1000 or so AD, to the Reformation churches in the 1500-1600s, and to us in 2017. Only the amil / present millennium view can do that. It is Christ's vision for all the churches of the New Testament age.
 
Hello Tyler,

I don’t think we’re off topic for the simple reason that one’s eschatology – throughout the age, and at the eschaton – will bear directly on the thread’s OP question, “What will Christ's return be like?”

What is unusual about David Engelsma’s presentation is its simplicity, and its fervency. Yet for that it is no less cogent in its refutation of the errant view. After all, he does interact with both Gentry and with North, and another unnamed writer responding to his “Jewish Dreams” article in the Standard Bearer.

As you bring up “historicist” postmillennialism, would you be so kind as to give a thumbnail sketch of that school’s view? Ditto with an “Idealist” postmil view.

What I am opposing is the simple paradigmatic scheme of whatever might be legitimately termed postmillennial: that Revelation has been fulfilled, save for the final eschaton, in the destruction of the Jewish temple and the annulment of its covenant standing with God. That as the church grows through the preaching of the Gospel, even though it be rocky and bloody initially, there will come a time when, through the power of God’s Spirit in the Gospel preached, the nations will become “Christianized” and a golden age of godliness will emerge. This second “golden” stage after the era of proclamation is termed the millennium by the postmil. And after this “millennium” the Lord will return. I won’t get into the more detailed views of the “Christian Reconstructionists” / “Theonomists” but will stick with the basic postmil view.

The Biblical paradigm, in opposition to this, states there are only two ages:

Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Eph 1:20, 21 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

[aiōn can be translated age or world]​

You can see, there are only two ages. But the postmil make three ages: the early church age of initial gospel proclamation, the second golden millennial age, and the eternal age. These are all distinctly different ages, contradicting Scripture.

And the NT says of the character of the church age, it is “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4). 1 John 5:19 says, “And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”

2 Tim 3:12, 13 says, “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

It is true that the genuine church of Jesus Christ, His believing remnant in this age, will become ever more purified and glorious, even as the chaff apostatize. But this has been happening all through the church age, as each generation has suffered and been purified by affliction and persecution. Yet as we approach the end of the age this conflict between the saints of the Most High and the ungodly hordes of the prince of demons will intensify and come to a terrible climax – or shall I rather put it, the church of Jesus Christ and the denizens of global harlot Babylon – which will be what is termed Armageddon, and in the midst of it the Lord shall return, cameos of which we may see in Rev 6:14-17,

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

and also in Rev 11:7-12,

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.​

Right on the heels of this we have the great earthquake, and in verse 15 the 7th trumpet. See also, 1 Thess 4:16, 17,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Cf. 1 Cor 15:51, 52,

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

I could go on and on, but it is clear that out of great tribulation we are purified unto God, a small remnant almost overcome at the end at Armageddon, where Satan shall deceive

“the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” (Rev 20:8, 9)​

Frankly, there is not time to play with the confusions the devil has inundated us with to wrest from the camp of the saints the precious vision and understanding our Saviour has given us in His final prophecy – in the Apocalypse of John. So I will be pardoned, I hope, if I do not play the laid-back academic in these times of our great peril soon to be unleashed.

I have little patience with false narratives of the end poorly construed, whose design is to get the saints rejecting or unsure of God’s glorious revelation of His sovereign rule from the throne of His majesty due to the “end-times confusion and disarray”. Enough. I do realize that you and others genuinely mean well, and have no ill in your hearts in this matter. I realize are a godly man. I mean you no disrespect.

__________


David, were it in my power I’d send you back to Junior for this saying (post 22), “The scriptures can be used to support as viable options either Pre/Post/A Mil viewpoints”.

“Viable” means capable of life, able to succeed, to exist. They cannot all be right. Empty words don’t fly well. Slow down, please.
Steve,

The specific question raised in the original post is whether Christ's return will be obvious or subtle. It's not a question about what the state of the world will be like at the return of Christ. If you would like to discuss the various systems of eschatology, you can start a thread on it, and I will be happy to participate.
 
Tyler, I see your point—yet it remains that Christ's appearing will differ in the eyes that see Him according to the situation on the earth at that time.

You can start another thread on eschatological views if you wish (as it's your idea to do so), and I would likely join in. I think it would be interesting.
 
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