What Would You Reform First?

[Pergamum]

Other:

#1 Throw the libs and barthians out!!
#2 Sola Scripura!!
#3 Bring the KJV back!! (It's an abomination to the LORD doesn't compare the modern watered down versions which say the Lord does not like. )
#2.5 Demand adherence to the WCF!
#4 Make R.C. Sproul the Protestant Pope!
#5 No more grape juice.
#6 The new #1 show on TBN - Law & Order: Theological Victims Unit
#7 Blow up Christianity Today's headquarters and put up a billboard that reads "Thus saith the LORD!"
#134 Demand Reformed Presidents!!

Wow, let me finish up my year's subscription to CT before you do anything drastic.

Also, DEMAND? adherance to the WCF? How would you propose this? Roving patrols?

No more grape juice? Does it have to be fermented for the Lord to be pleased?

Demand Reformed presidents? Now...would that be a person who is "reformed" in the sense of following the WCF (1788 revision), the original,or the 3 forms of unity? Would this president be a hymn singer or an EPer? WOuld his wife wear a headcovering? Just who would speak for the "reformed" as a whole?


Throw the libs and the Barthians out? Why not throw everyone out and only let a select few in?



Ha....quite a fiery post there brother. We need a hyperbole smiley!

 

[Amazing Grace]

AG,

I think your definition of Grace might be lacking. Please tell me you don't think that Charis is just unmerited favor? Please.



The law of God expressed in the decalogue from that dreaded Mount is blessed. You need to read what the Confession says about it and how it readily applies to the life of the believer today.

Randy, I am not saying the Law is useless. My answer to the poll was honest. We do not need more Law preaching, but more pure sovereign grace preaching.

May I ask what else it means in your understanding and what the 2 verses you posted are supposed to show me?

AG,
How do you define grace? I would like to understand what you are saying?

I do believe we need a good dose of law preaching. It was in the the law of God that King David encouraged us to delight in. It is meditating upon it that keeps us in the way and cleanses us. It is the law of the Lord that converts (revives) the soul.

Just for reference
(Psa 1:2) But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

(Psa 19:7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(Psa 19:8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

(Psa 94:12) Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;

(Psa 119:1) Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

(Psa 119:9) Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
(Psa 119:10) With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
(Psa 119:11) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
(Psa 119:12) Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

(Rom 7:7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

(Rom 7:12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
(Rom 7:13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.


The reason I mentioned the Titus text in reference to grace is that grace leads us into obedience. It uses the law to reveal God's will for the life of the Christian. We are free from the condemnation of the law but not our obligation as creatures to obey it. We please God by doing his will. And we need the light of the law to keep His will in focus. We still have indwelling sin to combat. We still have the world, the devil, and the flesh trying to keep us blinded and snared. We need good law preaching by the Grace of God.

Randy, as I have stated in another thread not to digress this one regarding Law, I do heartily disagree that Law converts/revives the soul.

I define grace as exactly what you said, unmerited favor to wrath deserving sinners. Grace makes alive, Grace keeps alive by grace alone. And until one rightly understands Grace, they will be tossed to and fro in life.

Do you, O sinner! need the Holy Spirit . . .
to awaken you,
to convince you of sin, righteousness and judgment,
to enlighten and teach you,
to lead and guide you in the everlasting way,
to cleanse you,
to comfort you?
Here you may find Him in the covenant of grace!

O sinner! Do you need grace, all grace, great grace,
abundance of grace, multiplied grace? Here you may
find it in the covenant of grace!

O sinner! Do you need peace, or ease, or rest, or
quiet in your conscience? Here you may find it in
the covenant of grace!

O sinner! Do you need contentment, or comfort,
or joy, or satisfaction? Here you may have it in
the covenant of grace!

O sinner, sinner! whatever your soul needs are—they
may all be supplied out of the covenant of grace!
God, in His infinite wisdom and love, has laid into
the covenant of grace, as into a common storehouse,
all those good things, and all those great things, and
all those suitable things—that either sinners or saints
can either desire or need!

Thomas Brooks...

 

[DMcFadden]

Ha....quite a fiery post there brother. We need a hyperbole smiley!

You mention hyperbole for a guy who sports a Rush Limbaugh avatar??? Isn't that a tautology.

 

[Jim]

Thanks for all the great replies. It seemed like such a simple poll at first.

I think you have to begin with God (include sola scriptura and Christology)
Then man and sin
Then salvation

I think modern Evangelicalism lost it when they shifted the beginning from God to man.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Randy, as I have stated in another thread not to digress this one regarding Law, I do heartily disagree that Law converts/revives the soul.

I define grace as exactly what you said, unmerited favor to wrath deserving sinners. Grace makes alive, Grace keeps alive by grace alone. And until one rightly understands Grace, they will be tossed to and fro in life.

I am convinced your definition of grace is very lacking. Although grace is unmerited it is not just unmerited favor.

I quickly refer you to this post I made a few years ago.

I believe most of modern day Christendom has a deficient understanding of Grace based upon some some old definitions and scripture. If we had a better understanding of God's grace no one could conclude anything to be cheap concerning it. The cost of imparting it was paid by Christ.

In Titus Grace teaches us.
(Tit 2:11-12) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

In 2 Corintians grace is used synomously with Christ's power working in us.

(2Co 12:8-9) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The Greek word charis is translated grace. In the old Strongs greek dictionary there is a definition given which says, "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and it's reflection in the life."

The Puritans didn't believe grace meant just unmerited favor. God's grace is unmerited but it is much more than that. Charismata is the operation of God's Spirit working through man.

Grace is monergistic as it is also synergistic. It isn't both at the same time. Salvation by Grace is monergistic. Monergistic Grace is the Holy Spirit breathing life into our souls and quickening us into New Creatures in Christ. It is unmerited but it isn't just unmerited favor. That is where the semi Pelagians (Independent Baptists or Free Will advocates) greatly err. There definition of Grace is faulty. That is why their Grace is truly no grace at all.

Synergistic Grace is what Phi 2:12,13 is about.

(Phi 2:12-13) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Just my two cents on the topic.

The grace of God is never void of the law of God. Go back and read the Westminster as I asked you to do. Please.

 

[Romans922]

I voted for Attributes of God, I think many people need to figure out what it means for God to be Holy --> I believe this would change everything dratically.

 

[Grymir]

Hello Pergamum! And everyone else too!

It's taken me a few days. I've been busy at work, now it's time to serve humanity just by showing up.

Yes, It has to be fermented. Catering to the culture before catering to God. Grape juice communion is wrong. (there y'all, I didn't say heretical)

About the WCF thing, So many give lip service, and then do the man centered Church worship routine. They rely on the exception clause. about everything practically.

And yes, Throw the Libs and Barthians out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of office i meant, not the common church goer. But yes, any in office should be dumped on the street!! I asked the reform group why we couldn't just throw the people out of the assembly because anybody who endorses gay or women pastors doesn't know their bible nor follow God. They spent the next 20 minutes defending women pastors.

And yes, a president's wife should wear a headcovering...Tinfoil...to protect her from the Illuminati mind control...

Anyway, that's what I would reform in the church if I was the Protestant Pope!

 

[Amazing Grace]

Randy, as I have stated in another thread not to digress this one regarding Law, I do heartily disagree that Law converts/revives the soul.

I define grace as exactly what you said, unmerited favor to wrath deserving sinners. Grace makes alive, Grace keeps alive by grace alone. And until one rightly understands Grace, they will be tossed to and fro in life.

I am convinced your definition of grace is very lacking. Although grace is unmerited it is not just unmerited favor.

I quickly refer you to this post I made a few years ago.

I believe most of modern day Christendom has a deficient understanding of Grace based upon some some old definitions and scripture. If we had a better understanding of God's grace no one could conclude anything to be cheap concerning it. The cost of imparting it was paid by Christ.

In Titus Grace teaches us.
(Tit 2:11-12) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

In 2 Corintians grace is used synomously with Christ's power working in us.

(2Co 12:8-9) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The Greek word charis is translated grace. In the old Strongs greek dictionary there is a definition given which says, "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and it's reflection in the life."

The Puritans didn't believe grace meant just unmerited favor. God's grace is unmerited but it is much more than that. Charismata is the operation of God's Spirit working through man.

Grace is monergistic as it is also synergistic. It isn't both at the same time. Salvation by Grace is monergistic. Monergistic Grace is the Holy Spirit breathing life into our souls and quickening us into New Creatures in Christ. It is unmerited but it isn't just unmerited favor. That is where the semi Pelagians (Independent Baptists or Free Will advocates) greatly err. There definition of Grace is faulty. That is why their Grace is truly no grace at all.

Synergistic Grace is what Phi 2:12,13 is about.

(Phi 2:12-13) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Just my two cents on the topic.

The grace of God is never void of the law of God. Go back and read the Westminster as I asked you to do. Please.

Actually I need not reread westminster Randy. Ill take my stand here. You asked me a question, I gave you the root. You did not ask me what grace produces. It is not cheap, nor is it mixed with Law. If you are saying what I think you are saying, then I heartily disagree. Every scripture you presented proves my point. I could not have strengthened my conviction that we need pure unadulterated grace preaching from the pulpit. Now again do not take my words to mean Law is useless, becasue I never said that. But I am saying if you believe in a 'glawspel', well it is an impossibility.

let me explain with the words of Paul.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


When I try to live under the law it only frustrates me becasue of my inability to please the One I want to please most. I can not respond with love to a God who appears to be continually pointing out every wrong action or thought. Instead, I am left with a guilty conscience and sense of fear in approaching God. But I am thankful becasue :

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Pilgrim posted words from Watson that coincides with my thought too.

"Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new
creature; old things are passed away, behold
all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17

The new creature has a new life.

Grace alters a man's walk. (not grace mixed with Law)

Before he walked proudly(fruit of Law)—now he walks humbly.(fruit of grace)

Before he walked loosely(fruit of law)—now he walks holily.(fruit of grace)

Before a man sailed hell-ward (law)and, all of a sudden, the
Spirit of God comes upon him and blows him heavenward.(grace)

He makes the Word his rule, and Christ's life his pattern.

"Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
1 John 2:6

"So that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing
to Him, bearing fruit in every good work and growing in
the knowledge of God." Colossians 1:10


Again, I did not think I had to explain my answer on this thread. A question was asked and I answered. I just cannot figure out why when grace is highly elevated, that people cry antinomian or ask me to clarify.

 

[ServantofGod]

Other:

#1 Throw the libs and barthians out!!
#2 Sola Scripura!!
#3 Bring the KJV back!! (It's an abomination to the LORD doesn't compare the modern watered down versions which say the Lord does not like. )
#2.5 Demand adherence to the WCF!
#4 Make R.C. Sproul the Protestant Pope!
#5 No more grape juice.
#6 The new #1 show on TBN - Law & Order: Theological Victims Unit
#7 Blow up Christianity Today's headquarters and put up a billboard that reads "Thus saith the LORD!"
#134 Demand Reformed Presidents!!

#4 sounds good to me.

But I believe that knowing the pure, unadulterated truth of the attributes of God, will effect EVERYTHING in Christianity(Christology, Soteriology, ect...).

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Randy, as I have stated in another thread not to digress this one regarding Law, I do heartily disagree that Law converts/revives the soul.

Just a note Nicholas, but in Psalm 19 - which you seem to be referring to - the word "law" means the word of God in Scripture. The psalm is about God's revelation in creation (general revelation) and in Scripture (special revelation); thus when it talks about the law reviving/converting the soul, it means that it is a means of grace through which sinners are converted.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Randy, as I have stated in another thread not to digress this one regarding Law, I do heartily disagree that Law converts/revives the soul.

Just a note Nicholas, but in Psalm 19 - which you seem to be referring to - the word "law" means the word of God in Scripture. The psalm is about God's revelation in creation (general revelation) and in Scripture (special revelation); thus when it talks about the law reviving/converting the soul, it means that it is a means of grace through which sinners are converted.

Daniel, I did not have 19 in mind at all. Perhaps Randy did. THis is not talking about OT Law here. For it cannot have the mosaic law in mind. I agree the word, the Gospel is the means of converting / reviving the soul

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Randy, as I have stated in another thread not to digress this one regarding Law, I do heartily disagree that Law converts/revives the soul.

Just a note Nicholas, but in Psalm 19 - which you seem to be referring to - the word "law" means the word of God in Scripture. The psalm is about God's revelation in creation (general revelation) and in Scripture (special revelation); thus when it talks about the law reviving/converting the soul, it means that it is a means of grace through which sinners are converted.

Daniel, I did not have 19 in mind at all. Perhaps Randy did. THis is not talking about OT Law here. For it cannot have the mosaic law in mind. I agree the word, the Gospel is the means of converting / reviving the soul

Sorry, maybe it was Randy. Hopefully he can clarify if necessary.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Just a note Nicholas, but in Psalm 19 - which you seem to be referring to - the word "law" means the word of God in Scripture. The psalm is about God's revelation in creation (general revelation) and in Scripture (special revelation); thus when it talks about the law reviving/converting the soul, it means that it is a means of grace through which sinners are converted.

Daniel, I did not have 19 in mind at all. Perhaps Randy did. THis is not talking about OT Law here. For it cannot have the mosaic law in mind. I agree the word, the Gospel is the means of converting / reviving the soul

Sorry, maybe it was Randy. Hopefully he can clarify if necessary.

I agree that clarification is needed from Randy. In post 61 he stated:

I do believe we need a good dose of law preaching. It was in the the law of God that King David encouraged us to delight in. It is meditating upon it that keeps us in the way and cleanses us. It is the law of the Lord that converts (revives) the soul.

Just for reference
(Psa 1:2) But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

(Psa 19:7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(Psa 19:8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Oh Randy, where art thou Randy.....

"I'm in the bushes, the ladder broke."

Just a tad of humor in the midst....