"When he's not asking"?

[Simply_Nikki]

I'm posting this here and not in the coffee shop or ladies tea parlor because I wanted to get the guys' and gals' opinions on this matter and because it will probably be a beneficial discussion for guests to view. The title of this post is taken from the title of an article found on boundless.org.

I've read a few articles on the boundless.org website about the initiation stage of dating/courting, and they are very much opposed to the idea of women initiating a relationship by asking the guy out. No matter how much she may be interested in him, no matter how total his oblivion is to her existence, no matter how much other people may think they'd be compatible; if he's not asking her, she should leave it at that. She should not go around to her friends asking them to ask him out for her, nor should she be overly assertive with her feelings by flirting; rather, she should either be content to be his friend* or she should put him out of her mind entirely.

When I talked with the wife of my former pastor about this, she believed that it was okay for a girl to ask a guy out given that the guy may just be shy or nervous.

While I understand, and for the most part, agree with the idea behind women as responders and men as initiators, I find that many men are not taught that they should be initiators. Influences of society says that it is okay for women to initiate relationships on her own terms with anyone she chooses just as men do (of course this does not mean it's okay). Society also teaches that men don't need to be in any hurry to look towards and prepare for marriage.

So the questions are:
1. How can these single women encourage men to start asking them out, without overstepping the initiator/responder distinction?
2. Do you believe this distinction is even valid?
3. For Men: If a woman were to ask you on a date would you feel that she was violating her role as a woman as a helper in a relationship? In other words, does her initiating necessarily mean she is taking on the role of leader?

I appreciate all of your responses in aiding all the frustrated ladies out there waiting on the sidelines (patiently and impatiently) while good christian men never think twice to consider them as potential spouses.

* When I say friend, I mean relatively distant, since it was also advised that women not be too close with guy friends because that can make the relationship confusing with the investment of emotional and physical time. The idea being that spending too much time with a member of the opposite sex is reminiscent of a courtship or marriage which can lead to unstated courtship/marriage like attachments.

 

[TimV]

Well, I can't advise you to climb into bed with him like Ruth did, but when her mom in law's parading of her in front of him didn't work, that seems to have helped. At the least it's bolder than asking a guy to come over for lunch. I'm a bit weather beaten, and have been my whole life, so I didn't have the problem of women asking me out very often, but I would have enjoyed it, and not thought lesser of her.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

No matter how compatible I think we would otherwise be, if a guy doesn't have enough initiative to ask me out, I just can't be attracted to him. I can't imagine spending my life under the leadership of someone who needed that kind of prodding.

With that said, I think (though I really wouldn't know, being a single gal) that it's appropriate to make clear through smiling, general niceness, etc., that you like spending time with a guy. I do not think a woman ought to have to put herself on the line and reveal her interest without his taking the initiative, but in the confusing world of Christian dating, some otherwise decent guys just don't know what women expect or whether they are being pushy. But again, that's just my general and rather uninformed opinion.

Is there any chance we could move this to the Coffee Shop? I have a feeling people may not want to share stores in the General forum.

Edit: Nikki, I see you thought this might be beneficial for guests to view. This makes sense. And of course we can all discuss this topic in general terms, anyway.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

LOL Evie edited her post before I posted this one. =P

I was originally going to post it in the coffee shop, but I didn't think any of the answers to the questions would reveal anything too personal about anyone. Nevertheless, I don't mind it being moved there if needed to protect privacy. I just thought passer-byers who wanted to know what PBers thought on the subject could be helpful. =)

 

[JohnGill]

Just so you know, subtlety doesn't work on guys. We may pick up on it about a month later after the conversation. Generally we don't.

There are ways to ask a guy out without asking him out. If you are going to be out with some friends invite him along. You're not asking him out one-on-one, but instead you're inviting him to participate in a group activity. Every time you and your friends go out, invite him along whether or not he accepted the last time. After a while a glimmer of an idea will spark in the brain, oh maybe she likes me. It's considered the less aggressive approach.

If you're dealing with someone who gets obsessed over projects or doesn't feel comfortable with group interaction, then you will need to follow the direct approach, Hi I like you, Do you like me? You'll know he is uncomfortable around groups when he rarely he initiates conversation in a group, puts his back to a wall, faces the majority of the crowd to watch their movements so he knows they're not sneaking up on him, etc. In other words, he's mildly paranoid. After about 6 times of group interaction he may start to relax. You'll know he obsesses over projects by the slurred speech when you ask him a simple question. It's because you're pulling him out of his mind by talking to him. If he seems short with you it's not because he's upset, it's because he's obsessed with the project at hand. Let him finish it and you'll be able to have a normal conversation.

Of course you could just find a normal guy.

 

[JohnGill]

With that said, I think (though I really wouldn't know, being a single gal) that it's appropriate to make clear through smiling, general niceness, etc., that you like spending time with a guy.

I was always taught this had nothing to do with interest, but was just women being women. If this is showing interest I need to go ask someone out.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

With that said, I think (though I really wouldn't know, being a single gal) that it's appropriate to make clear through smiling, general niceness, etc., that you like spending time with a guy.

I was always taught this had nothing to do with interest, but was just women being women. If this is showing interest I need to go ask someone out.

This is a good point, perhaps. I will admit that I tend to go out of my way not to distinguish my general niceness from my I-might-be-interested niceness.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Ask him out. "The violent taketh by force"

 

[Simply_Nikki]

Ask him out. "The violent taketh by force"

.

So you don't think that a woman directly approaching a guy to ask him out is in anyway a set up for a pattern of the would be relationship if it ensued?

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Ask him out. "The violent taketh by force"

.

So you don't think that a woman directly approaching a guy to ask him out is in anyway a set up for a pattern of the would be relationship if it ensued?

Nope. besides you are simply helping him make the right decision.

 

[JohnGill]

With that said, I think (though I really wouldn't know, being a single gal) that it's appropriate to make clear through smiling, general niceness, etc., that you like spending time with a guy.

I was always taught this had nothing to do with interest, but was just women being women. If this is showing interest I need to go ask someone out.

This is a good point, perhaps. I will admit that I tend to go out of my way not to distinguish my general niceness from my I-might-be-interested niceness.

Any clues for distinguishing the two? I mean besides touching the arm or shoulder, pupil dilation, cheek flush, increase in pulse & blood pressure (observable via the neck), laughing at a bad joke or at a decent joke with more than normal laughter, etc. Like I said, subtlety we don't get.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

With that said, I think (though I really wouldn't know, being a single gal) that it's appropriate to make clear through smiling, general niceness, etc., that you like spending time with a guy.

I was always taught this had nothing to do with interest, but was just women being women. If this is showing interest I need to go ask someone out.

This is a good point, perhaps. I will admit that I tend to go out of my way not to distinguish my general niceness from my I-might-be-interested niceness.

Yes this is a problem, many women don't know what it is to have a separate "i-might-be-interest niceness". I for one don't. Could you give an example of what this would look like beyond the usual niceness? Would you call it "flirting"?

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I was always taught this had nothing to do with interest, but was just women being women. If this is showing interest I need to go ask someone out.

This is a good point, perhaps. I will admit that I tend to go out of my way not to distinguish my general niceness from my I-might-be-interested niceness.

Any clues for distinguishing the two? I mean besides touching the arm or shoulder, pupil dilation, cheek flush, increase in pulse & blood pressure (observable via the neck), laughing at a bad joke or at a decent joke with more than normal laughter, etc. Like I said, subtlety we don't get.

Unfortunately, the only real solution is that you just have to put yourself on the line and ask her out. I think it's unreasonable for a guy to wait until he's certain a girl likes him to ask her out. Frankly, I've resolved not to "like" any guys unless they express interest.

 

[kalawine]

I'm posting this here and not in the coffee shop or ladies tea parlor because I wanted to get the guys' and gals' opinions on this matter and because it will probably be a beneficial discussion for guests to view. The title of this post is taken from the title of an article found on boundless.org.

I've read a few articles on the boundless.org website about the initiation stage of dating/courting, and they are very much opposed to the idea of women initiating a relationships by asking the guy out. No matter how much she may be interested in him, no matter how total his oblivion is to her existence, no matter how much other people may think they'd be compatible; if he's not asking her, she should leave it at that. She should not go around to her friends asking them to ask him out for her, nor should she be overly assertive with her feelings by flirting; rather, she should either be content to be his friend* or she should put him out of her mind entirely.

When I talked with the wife of my former pastor about this, she believed that it was okay for a girl to ask a guy out given that the guy may just be shy or nervous.

While I understand, and for the most part, agree with the idea behind women as responders and men as initiators, I find that many men are not taught that they should be initiators. Influences of society says that it is okay for women to initiate relationships on her own terms with anyone she chooses just as men do (of course this does not mean it's okay). Society also teaches that men don't need to be in any hurry to look towards and prepare for marriage.

So the questions are:
1. How can these single women encourage men to start asking out them out, without overstepping the initiator/responder distinction?
2. Do you believe this distinction is even valid?
3. For Men: If a woman were to ask you on a date would you feel that she was violating her role as a woman as a helper in a relationship? In other words, does her initiating necessarily mean she is taking on the role of leader?

I appreciate all of your responses in aiding all the frustrated ladies out there waiting on the sidelines (patiently and impatiently) while good christian men never think twice to consider them as potential spouses.

* When I say friend, I mean relatively distant, since it was also advised that women not be too close with guy friends because that can make the relationship confusing with the investment of emotional and physical time. The idea being that spending too much time with a member of the opposite sex is reminiscent of a courtship or marriage which can lead to unstated courtship/marriage like attachments.

Nikki,
There is a very good Christian woman that I have been friends with for a few years now. Our boys have grown up together and are good friends also. A few years ago she and I would eat lunch together or talk at our son's baseball games. This lady was friendly, pretty and sweet but I had absolutely no idea that she thought of me romantically.
One day I was sitting around thinking about her. We had not been together for a long time due to different circumstances and problems (both my boys are in high school band and she was taking care of a dying aunt). I picked up my phone and called her. During the conversation found out that she now had (still has) a boyfriend. I wouldn't recommend anyone doing what I did next in just any or every situation but we were good enough friends that I felt comfortable asking her this question. I asked, "Tell me. Back when we were hanging out some, would you have "gone" with me? (whatever they call it now) She said, very quickly and sternly, "Yes, yes I would have." She is so involved with her present boyfriend that she has no intention of dropping things with him to go with someone else.
Have you ever seen the old movies, TV shows or cartoons where the lady "accidentally" drops her kerchief and the gentleman picks it up for her? I'm no expert and that is a fact. But my advice would be to "drop your kerchief" (not literally of course) If he doesn't pick it up for you, you know that he is:

(1) Not interested (and from the look of your picture I doubt that very seriously )
(2) Stupid (and you don't need him anyway)
(3) Just so caught up in his life that he (like I was with my friend) just doesn't get the hint

MAKE SURE that he (I'm assuming there is or at least has been a "he")... make sure that he GET'S THE HINT!

I almost forgot to answer your questions.

1. How can these single women encourage men to start asking out them out, without overstepping the initiator/responder distinction?

I think that Evie is right to some degree when she says:

"With that said, I think (though I really wouldn't know, being a single gal) that it's appropriate to make clear through smiling, general niceness, etc., that you like spending time with a guy"

I can't explain it but I can normally tell the "just being nice" nice from the "I think I like you" nice.


2. Do you believe this distinction is even valid?

Most certainly. Men are supposed to be leaders. As a high school kid I had two kinds of girls: Those who called me and those that I called. I now understand why my mother liked the latter Those aggressive ones call my boys now and they really worry me

3. For Men: If a woman were to ask you on a date would you feel that she was violating her role as a woman as a helper in a relationship? In other words, does her initiating necessarily mean she is taking on the role of leader?

That's a tough one for me. I believe that asking is the man's role. But how can a man be insulted if a woman asks him out? I do believe that in 100% of the times that women have asked me out they were violating their role as a woman because I wasn't interested in them and if I had been I would have asked them. On the other hand, if you wait around for some lunk-head like me to catch the hint you mat never go out!

Honestly though, I don't know if I have ever met a female that wasn't pretty good at throwing hints. Also, tell your friend to tell him that you think he's cute (or whatever you like about him). That works every time! If someone tells me that I feel good because I have the info if I want it but I don't have to use it. That way, I'm not put on the spot but if I already had intentions I'm not afraid to go through with them.

 

[JohnGill]

This is a good point, perhaps. I will admit that I tend to go out of my way not to distinguish my general niceness from my I-might-be-interested niceness.

Any clues for distinguishing the two? I mean besides touching the arm or shoulder, pupil dilation, cheek flush, increase in pulse & blood pressure (observable via the neck), laughing at a bad joke or at a decent joke with more than normal laughter, etc. Like I said, subtlety we don't get.

Unfortunately, the only real solution is that you just have to put yourself on the line and ask her out. I think it's unreasonable for a guy to wait until he's certain a girl likes him to ask her out. Frankly, I've resolved not to "like" any guys unless they express interest.

Um, I was pointing out the more obvious signs to distinguish general niceness from I'm interested niceness.

I think we may be talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you first meet someone. You seem to be talking about after you've met someone and have gotten to know them a bit.

For me it's easier. As far as I know there are no single Calvinist women in Fairbanks, AK. So I ignore the things I listed when I see them.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Any clues for distinguishing the two? I mean besides touching the arm or shoulder, pupil dilation, cheek flush, increase in pulse & blood pressure (observable via the neck), laughing at a bad joke or at a decent joke with more than normal laughter, etc. Like I said, subtlety we don't get.

Unfortunately, the only real solution is that you just have to put yourself on the line and ask her out. I think it's unreasonable for a guy to wait until he's certain a girl likes him to ask her out. Frankly, I've resolved not to "like" any guys unless they express interest.

Um, I was pointing out the more obvious signs to distinguish general niceness from I'm interested niceness.

I think we may be talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you first meet someone. You seem to be talking about after you've met someone and have gotten to know them a bit.

For me it's easier. As far as I know there are no single Calvinist women in Fairbanks, AK. So I ignore the things I listed when I see them.

Sorry for misunderstanding! Though I thought your "more obvious signs" were in jest -- it would probably be rare for someone to blush visibly or have an obviously increased pulse.

But why would you ask out someone you just met? And are you really interested in distinguishing whether someone is attracted to you solely based on your appearance? I mean, all of the signs you listed are, to be very blunt, more related to sexual arousal than serious interest. (Not that the two don't ultimately go together, but even women who are interested in you are not likely to be reduced to putty by your mere presence.) Back to my original conclusion -- I can't imagine being "interested" in someone after only one meeting, before I knew he might be interested.

 

[JohnGill]

Unfortunately, the only real solution is that you just have to put yourself on the line and ask her out. I think it's unreasonable for a guy to wait until he's certain a girl likes him to ask her out. Frankly, I've resolved not to "like" any guys unless they express interest.

Um, I was pointing out the more obvious signs to distinguish general niceness from I'm interested niceness.

2 I think we may be talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you first meet someone. You seem to be talking about after you've met someone and have gotten to know them a bit.

For me it's easier. As far as I know there are no single Calvinist women in Fairbanks, AK. So I ignore the things I listed when I see them.

1 Sorry for misunderstanding! Though I thought your "more obvious signs" were in jest -- it would probably be rare for someone to blush visibly or have an obviously increased pulse.

3 But why would you ask out someone you just met? And are you really interested in distinguishing whether someone is attracted to you solely based on your appearance? I mean, all of the signs you listed are, to be very blunt, more related to sexual arousal than serious interest. (4 Not that the two don't ultimately go together, but even women who are interested in you are not likely to be reduced to putty by your mere presence.) Back to my original conclusion -- I can't imagine being "interested" in someone after only one meeting, before I knew he might be interested.

1) Yeah, they were in jest. Sorry I have very dry humor. Too much British Comedy growing up coupled with a German Father. And I sometimes go far for a joke. My dad once had my mom convinced, with the help of his dentist, that he had his CIA cyanide tooth removed. He was never in the CIA. Allegedly.

2) A lot of people make determinations about someone on their first encounter. If a woman has little to no interest in the things of God, then I wouldn't ask her out at a later time.

3) When meeting someone for the first time I prefer to find out what they believe and what their personality is like. That determines whether or not I would be willing to talk to them later, which would determine whether or not I might consider asking them out later.

4) Actually they do swoon at my mere presence. I like to keep an open bottle of chloroform downwind. Hate it when the wind changes. Contrary to popular opinion you don't get used to chloroform.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

I do believe that in 100% of the times that women have asked me out they were violating their role as a woman because I wasn't interested in them and if I had been I would have asked them. On the other hand, if you wait around for some lunk-head like me to catch the hint you mat never go out!

To be frank, I've never been asked out by a Christian man, so the last sentence there is a concern of mine.

Also, tell your friend to tell him that you think he's cute (or whatever you like about him). That works every time! If someone tells me that I feel good because I have the info if I want it but I don't have to use it. That way, I'm not put on the spot but if I already had intentions I'm not afraid to go through with them.

I think the whole idea behind not giving that kind of information to friends to relay back to the guy is that the woman puts her heart out on the line, while the man's heart is protected. I think that blurs the line between protector and protected, since man's job as a leader is to protect the woman. Some say part of manhood and leadership is being the one to take the risk of being rejected. Not sure how many agree with this, but just laying it out there.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

4) Actually they do swoon at my mere presence. I like to keep an open bottle of chloroform downwind. Hate it when the wind changes. Contrary to popular opinion you don't get used to chloroform.

 

[py3ak]

Nikki, Heidi and I think that it's safe for you to assume that single Christian men either already have a prospect, are nonagenarians, are too stupid to live, or are interested.

I don't think we have any advice for you, except that if a guy can't get over the horrible shame of having been asked out, he needs to be sent away to a quiet, relaxing place where all voices are hushed and all coats are white for his health.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Um, I was pointing out the more obvious signs to distinguish general niceness from I'm interested niceness.

2 I think we may be talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you first meet someone. You seem to be talking about after you've met someone and have gotten to know them a bit.

For me it's easier. As far as I know there are no single Calvinist women in Fairbanks, AK. So I ignore the things I listed when I see them.

1 Sorry for misunderstanding! Though I thought your "more obvious signs" were in jest -- it would probably be rare for someone to blush visibly or have an obviously increased pulse.

3 But why would you ask out someone you just met? And are you really interested in distinguishing whether someone is attracted to you solely based on your appearance? I mean, all of the signs you listed are, to be very blunt, more related to sexual arousal than serious interest. (4 Not that the two don't ultimately go together, but even women who are interested in you are not likely to be reduced to putty by your mere presence.) Back to my original conclusion -- I can't imagine being "interested" in someone after only one meeting, before I knew he might be interested.

1) Yeah, they were in jest. Sorry I have very dry humor. Too much British Comedy growing up coupled with a German Father. And I sometimes go far for a joke. My dad once had my mom convinced, with the help of his dentist, that he had his CIA cyanide tooth removed. He was never in the CIA. Allegedly.

2) A lot of people make determinations about someone on their first encounter. If a woman has little to no interest in the things of God, then I wouldn't ask her out at a later time.

3) When meeting someone for the first time I prefer to find out what they believe and what their personality is like. That determines whether or not I would be willing to talk to them later, which would determine whether or not I might consider asking them out later.

4) Actually they do swoon at my mere presence. I like to keep an open bottle of chloroform downwind. Hate it when the wind changes. Contrary to popular opinion you don't get used to chloroform.

Oh, I agree that you can rule someone out on the first meeting. People sometimes get your attention on the first meeting, too. I guess I would be slower to call myself "interested," but a person can certainly be. . . pre-interested?

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I think the whole idea behind not giving that kind of information to friends to relay back to the guy is that the woman puts her heart out on the line, while the man's heart is protected. I think that blurs the line between protector and protected, since man's job as a leader is to protect the woman. Some say part of manhood and leadership is being the one to take the risk of being rejected. Not sure how many agree with this, but just laying it out there.

I, for one, completely agree. And realistically, guys, you know you avoid a woman when you know she is interested and you aren't.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

Nikki, Heidi and I think that it's safe for you to assume that single Christian men either already have a prospect, are nonagenarians, are too stupid to live, or are interested.

I don't think we have any advice for you, except that if a guy can't get over the horrible shame of having been asked out, he needs to be sent away to a quiet, relaxing place where all voices are hushed and all coats are white for his health.

 

[JohnGill]

I think the whole idea behind not giving that kind of information to friends to relay back to the guy is that the woman puts her heart out on the line, while the man's heart is protected. I think that blurs the line between protector and protected, since man's job as a leader is to protect the woman. Some say part of manhood and leadership is being the one to take the risk of being rejected. Not sure how many agree with this, but just laying it out there.

I agree with you. When I have information like that relayed back to me, I think the woman is immature. Reminds me of high school.

 

[kalawine]

I think the whole idea behind not giving that kind of information to friends to relay back to the guy is that the woman puts her heart out on the line, while the man's heart is protected. I think that blurs the line between protector and protected, since man's job as a leader is to protect the woman. Some say part of manhood and leadership is being the one to take the risk of being rejected. Not sure how many agree with this, but just laying it out there.

Point well taken! I hadn't thought of it that way but I see what you mean. You may be on to something there.

 

[charliejunfan]

uh yeah uh, the guy should ask first but only the serious students of Reformed/Puritan teaching will know this, and although we are having a Reformation of sorts in the U.S. the Reformed principles of the family are being over looked, so just write hi on a piece of paper, go hand it to a guy and walk away. If he doesnt ask out after this he's probably not interested or just oblivious, before we can expect Christian men and women to act Christian we need to Reform the church in every area not just hey i believe in the elect!!! Doctrine determines application, so what i think women in this situation should do is talk to which ever guy they like and listen to his views on courting and the like, if he doesn't know what courting is then i think you are the more learned one and you should not bother with him anyways unless you want to be the teacher/ leader of the relationship, and anyways true courting is when the guy asks the fathers permision, after getting to know the guy the father asks his daughter what she thinks and wants then he keeps getting to know the guy and then makes his final decision based on his daughters needs and wants. The father is the protector covenantally just as the husband will become, this is why the man must go through the father. other than boundless.org some other great books on the subject are, Federal Husband, Her Hand in Marriage, and Reforming Marriage by Douglas Wilson(these were written before he became FV by the way lol)

 

[Simply_Nikki]

so just write hi on a piece of paper, go hand it to a guy and walk away. If he doesnt ask out after this he's probably not interested or just oblivious,

Hmm, I'm not sure how well that works among mature adults, it just may just seem kind of odd.

before we can expect Christian men and women to act Christian we need to Reform the church in every area not just hey i believe in the elect!!! Doctrine determines application, so what i think women in this situation should do is talk to which ever guy they like and listen to his views on courting and the like, if he doesn't know what courting is then i think you are the more learned one and you should not bother with him anyways unless you want to be the teacher/ leader of the relationship,

I agree a conversation on courting/dating should ensure before a woman can really deduce whether she is truly interested in a guy or not. Differences in views in this area can prove to be frustrating and detrimental.

and anyways true courting is when the guy asks the fathers permision, after getting to know the guy the father asks his daughter what she thinks and wants then he keeps getting to know the guy and then makes his final decision based on his daughters needs and wants. The father is the protector covenantally just as the husband will become, this is why the man must go through the father.

I'm not sure how much I agree with this, although it is a respectful gesture, I'm not sure a father absolutely has to sign off on the guy who wishes to pursue his daughter. There are plenty of reasons why this may not be wise nor beneficial to the daughter. What if the father is not a Christian (like mine), what if he's completely disinterested in his daughter's dating choices, what if he's not around? What if he has ridiculous standards and preferences and thinks no guy is good enough for his daughter and therefore prohibits her from marrying anyone? A father's choice is just as fallible as his daughters, sure guidance should be sought, sure he can give his thoughts and insight, but ultimately I don't think I agree that the decision is completely in his hands. (by the way I'm talking about grown women here, children are a different story).

However, I still wonder how you would answer question 1.

 

[a mere housewife]

Nikki, I had always assumed that one either got the privilege of not having to wait around in silence and suspense to [possibly] be asked, or the privilege of not having to put their feelings first on the line. I can understand why traditionally the girl has one role and the guy another, but it becomes evident that even many otherwise perfectly great Christian guys would like to have it both ways -- ie, not have to wait around for someone to ask, and also not have to be the first to put their feelings on the line. This probably in many cases stems from some humility (I can't believe anyone would possibly go out with me, etc) or it may stem, or be mixed, with a little selfishness and ignobility. If you can deal with the possibility of rejection, then I don't see why you shouldn't be able to choose which privilege you prefer -- TimV cited Ruth -- with the proviso that you would want to be very sure you didn't wind up with someone that you would always feel you had to step up and stand in the gap for. Women are naturally tempted to this -- part of the curse, that we want to lead -- but it's a rather subtle form. I'm 'helping' him to lead me, etc. Yet if one is always pushing someone else one is merely making him follow from in front. It's hard to know if you would be able to have a different relationship with a guy than that, without getting to know him first: and of course even the most marriageable men have faults (lack of leadership is a fairly common one that marriage does help), just as most marriageable women have to spend a lifetime learning how to really submit. It's not like helping a guy out in this area is a complete reversal of roles (and I do think that a guy who freaks out about it as such and can't take it in stride and see you beyond it, even if he doesn't like it, is probably at the same time too overly patriarchal, and not really confidently manly enough to be ready to be a very good leader to a real person ; but I do think one should be very aware and careful that it wouldn't turn into that in a longer relationship. Does that make sense?

 

[Simply_Nikki]

Nikki, I had always assumed that one either got the privilege of not having to wait around in silence and suspense to [possibly] be asked, or the privilege of not having to put their feelings first on the line. I can understand why traditionally the girl has one role and the guy another, but it becomes evident that even many otherwise perfectly great Christian guys would like to have it both ways -- ie, not have to wait around for someone to ask, and also not have to be the first to put their feelings on the line. This probably in many cases stems from some humility (I can't believe anyone would possibly go out with me, etc) or it may stem, or be mixed, with a little selfishness and ignobility. If you can deal with the possibility of rejection, then I don't see why you shouldn't be able to choose which privilege you prefer -- TimV cited Ruth -- with the proviso that you would want to be very sure you didn't wind up with someone that you would always feel you had to step up and stand in the gap for. Women are naturally tempted to this -- part of the curse, that we want to lead -- but it's a rather subtle form. I'm 'helping' him to lead me, etc. Yet if one is always pushing someone else one is merely making him follow from in front. It's hard to know if you would be able to have a different relationship with a guy than that, without getting to know him first: and of course even the most marriageable men have faults (lack of leadership is a fairly common one that marriage does help), just as most marriageable women have to spend a lifetime learning how to really submit. It's not like helping a guy out in this area is a complete reversal of roles (and I do think that a guy who freaks out about it as such and can't take it in stride and see you beyond it, even if he doesn't like it, is probably at the same time too overly patriarchal, and not really confidently manly enough to be ready to be a very good leader to a real person ; but I do think one should be very aware and careful that it wouldn't turn into that in a longer relationship. Does that make sense?

Thanks Heidi it does make sense, it just seems to be so awkward the other way around (girl asking guy), since the person who asks has said to himself or herself "I am looking for a godly wife or husband to spend the rest of my life with, I want to see if this person can meet that requirement and if I can meet theirs, therefore, I am going to persue this person by asking them to be in an exclusive relationship with me for a length of time so that we may discern whether or not we are compatible for marriage". It's a bold step that I think shows ambition, courage, maturity, leadership, and responsibility.Certainly these qualities aren't limited to just men, but in the church and home especially, are not these qualities to be assumed of men?

Ruth is a good example of a woman approaching a guy first to show her interest, but I'm not sure if this can be said to be the general rule or option that women have in their power to use. On the other hand, it's a bit macbre to think that there is absolutely "nothing" a woman can do to get the guy she is interested in to ask her out, 'cept keep dropping subtle hints and wait on the sidelines for eternity (lol figuratively of course).

You did bring up a good point about many men and women not being fully mature in fulfilling their manhood or womanhood roles, that it indeed is a process learned through out life. While I don't believe it is unfair to expect men and women of God to do what they are commanded to do, there is grace and patience in helping one another fulfill those commands. But as you stated the danger in letting that be the pattern for the rest of the relationship (girl always intiating what the guy should do) is definitely unbiblical.

Since the bible says "above all else guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life" and "do not awaken love before it pleases" I wanted to know how can single women encourage the single men in their lives step up to the plate in this area while guarding one's heart. We all, male and female, have to deal with rejection at some point in life, whether it be at the initial phase of a relationship or in it's ending. But who has the biblical mandate to lead in kicking off this process? (If such a mandate exists.) And is it right for the person without the mandate to step in and take the reigns by kicking it off for them? In anything I know we as believers want to do what is right in the sight of God in all areas of our lives, and I suppose a good rule of thumb that R.C. Sproul would say is if you are unsure it's better to err on the side of being overscrupulous than to err in sin. I don't want to err in sin, but i also don't want to be the one to sit on the sideline when all it could have taken was a simple question towards a guy ("hey do you want to go out sometime?"). It is a difficult deliberation and I am greatful for all that has been said so far. I'm sure prayer and further seeking of counsel on this topic will continue.

 

[a mere housewife]

Nikki, I am not sure that asking someone to go with you to catch a movie, or putt putting with some friends, or inviting them over for dessert & dictionary (I'm told other people play this game with some sort of special store bought equipment and call it 'balderdash') or whatnot has to be asking them into an exclusive relationship right off the bat. I am not sure what your views on dating/courtship are; but I would assume that as a general rule in either situation, the more laidback one is until one is confident of being seriously interested, the better.


I was thinking about warrant etc. It seems obvious to say that Christ seeks his own bride, calls her, etc., and that marriage should follow that pattern: but, even in that culture, the girl may well in many cases have said to her father, “I want to be married” and quite probably have suggested so-and-so. Whoever does the contracting, it seems like the girl would still have been in a position to, in some cases at least quite probably, take a first step. & I think examples like Ruth -though I'm sure this isn't the 'point' of the story- show that this isn't really an area where we have warrant to impose a binding moral law.


Could you just invite some friends over for a low key evening and invite this person too? You could watch Superan cartoons, eat pizza, play 'spoons' – I don't know. Ruben and I are probably the worst entertainers in the world, but we've always had fun with people over doing such dumb things. At least give them a chance to notice you a little more, and feel more comfortable around you in case they want to ask you out? Or it just makes it more natural, if you include them in several such things, to go out to coffee or even email or do something where you can talk more. If he's interested, I think it will probably take off from talking and feeling comfortable around you. (and honestly if by that time he isn't, he probably doesn't deserve you Nikki. Ruben and i think it highly likely that very few people could Personally I think the more naturally this kind of thing happens, the better. Besides the abuse of authority that is sometimes evident in courtship structures, the sheer unnaturalness of it – I don't know you but I'm asking you to enter a tense, focused, self conscious, exclusive relationship with me with the pressure of being emotionally unfaithfully if you should ever back out – is my own objection. I think that it does work beautifully for some personalities; I don't believe it's the only way, and it would have scared me to death.