When was the Sabbath?

[Grillsy]

Obviously the title is misleading. We know generally when the Sabbath was and is. Originally it was Saturday then moved to Sunday.

But I was listening to R.J. Rushdoony talk about the Sabbath in the OT and he was contending that originally the seventh day sabbath was not on Saturday rather it was determined by the day of the month and it was only changed be every Saturday because of a later (possibly Roman) influence.

Has anyone read anything on this? Or even heard of this?

 

[Claudiu]

Haven't heard of this. But it would be interesting if someone could share if they have heard.

-----Added 7/10/2009 at 07:00:05 EST-----

I know the consensus is that the Jewish sabbath was on Saturday. It was changed in the Christian tradition to Sunday, but is commonly called "The Lord's Day."

Pseudo-Ignatius writes, "Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, . . . But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, . . . And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]."

 

[Sven]

Hmmmm...interesting theory, but it doesn't seem to add up given the biblical data, which talks about the Sabbath being on the seventh day. This suggests a regular seven day week.

 

[Grillsy]

Hmmmm...interesting theory, but it doesn't seem to add up given the biblical data, which talks about the Sabbath being on the seventh day. This suggests a regular seven day week.

Right. That is why I hoping someone has heard something similar to what I have heard. So that we can sort this out.
Rushdoony's argument was something to the effect that certain Sabbaths would overlap...and therefore it could not always be Saturday. I won't say much more. I would want this post to go off topic or steer the conversation toward other things.

 

[Sven]

I guess it would maybe depend on the Jewish Calendar system. I have never heard this anywhere before. We need to consult someone who is an expert on the Jewish Calendar

 

[Grillsy]

I guess it would maybe depend on the Jewish Calendar system. I have never heard this anywhere before. We need to consult someone who is an expert on the Jewish Calendar

But it is sundown it is already their Shabbot!

 

[TimV]

It's an issue that gets more complex as you go into it! Jews in the OT had a lunar calendar, which was (If I recall correctly) 29.5 days, so every three years or so they added a 13th month to keep the festivals aligned with the time of year they were associated with.

Passover for instance was associated with the festival of the first fruits, and you had to have that festival in spring time, for obvious reasons! In fact, the original name for the first month of the Hebrew year was abib, which is the word for barley a the stage right before harvest. We know that from Exodus, when the plague of hail was said to have destroyed the barley crop since it was abib, but not the wheat, which is a later crop (described as still green) and could come back (with reduced yields) since it hadn't formed a seed head as yet.

Rush told me once that the Hebrews used some of the New Moon festivals, which are mentioned in the OT but not authorised as official, commanded festivals, to help keep the liturgical year on track with the actual seasons. After looking into it, I don't think that was right, since the 13th month, which was decided by observing the barley harvest, added every third year OR SO would have keep the seasons and holidays in line.

So, if anyone has followed this, and has studied this, perhaps they can answer a question I have. Did adding the 13th month change the 7 day cycles or not? I presume no, it probably didn't.

 

[Grillsy]

Do we have any OT historical experts out there...I think we do

 

[Kevin]

The problem or confusion that we moderns have with the 7th day/Saturday is partly the shift in calculation from lunar to solar years, and partly historical provincialism.

As Tim alluded to above Rush has written about the role of "fixed Sabbaths" that are set at a specific date. I.e 1, 8, & 15 Nisan (Lev 23:39). Since these dates were set "in stone" then the inter-calendar added dates must have Sabbaths set (calculated) from these days.

The imposition of names for the days of the week is a fairly recent innovation. Since it is the way we do it we assume that it has always been this way. Not so. The Hebrews only namesd the Sabbath, all other days were callled by an ordinal number based on their relationship to the Sabbath. I.e. "the first day of the week" was so callled, because it had no other name! "Monday" had not been invented yet.

The other issuue is the adoption by the rabbi's of a Saturday Sabbath in the early medieval period. The shift from the 7th day to a set day of the week was an accomodation by the rabbi's to the surounding Christian culture.

Here is a simple way to understand the issue.

What day is your birthday? If you answer the "3rd of March" I could then ask "But what day is it? Is it a Monday a Tuesday, what Day is it?" Of course you would think I was simple minded! Everyone "Knows" that a B-day is a DATE, not a DAY.

So it was with the Sabbath. As Lev. 23:39 shows it was a DATE.

Since in our way of reconing the "First Day of the Week" is always "Monday" we fall prey to the common fallacy of historical provincialism when we project into the past our current practice. Add to the mix the confusion in most peoples mind between Biblical Hebrews & early medieval Jewish Rabbi's Plus the added confusion that arises over the shift from numbered days in a lunar year to named days in a solar year... It is no wonder that people get so mixed up.

BTW this entire debate is linked to the subject of the calculation of Easter. Since Easter is celebrated each year on The actual week of the passion of Christ, it wanders in our Solar calendar. That is why Easter is a "Movable Feast".

One intersting fact that is illuminated by a proper (in my opinion) view of the OT Sabbath, is that the OT Sabbath as a Date actualy was celebrated during the course of the year on every Day of the week! Just as your B-day falls in turn on evey day of the week, so the OT Sabbath fell in turn on each "Day" of the week. In this way the rest of God redemed or rescued every day with his rest!

 

[Grillsy]

The problem or confusion that we moderns have with the 7th day/Saturday is partly the shift in calculation from lunar to solar years, and partly historical provincialism.

As Tim alluded to above Rush has written about the role of "fixed Sabbaths" that are set at a specific date. I.e 1, 8, & 15 Nisan (Lev 23:39). Since these dates were set "in stone" then the inter-calendar added dates must have Sabbaths set (calculated) from these days.

The imposition of names for the days of the week is a fairly recent innovation. Since it is the way we do it we assume that it has always been this way. Not so. The Hebrews only namesd the Sabbath, all other days were callled by an ordinal number based on their relationship to the Sabbath. I.e. "the first day of the week" was so callled, because it had no other name! "Monday" had not been invented yet.

The other issuue is the adoption by the rabbi's of a Saturday Sabbath in the early medieval period. The shift from the 7th day to a set day of the week was an accomodation by the rabbi's to the surounding Christian culture.

Here is a simple way to understand the issue.

What day is your birthday? If you answer the "3rd of March" I could then ask "But what day is it? Is it a Monday a Tuesday, what Day is it?" Of course you would think I was simple minded! Everyone "Knows" that a B-day is a DATE, not a DAY.

So it was with the Sabbath. As Lev. 23:39 shows it was a DATE.

Since in our way of reconing the "First Day of the Week" is always "Monday" we fall prey to the common fallacy of historical provincialism when we project into the past our current practice. Add to the mix the confusion in most peoples mind between Biblical Hebrews & early medieval Jewish Rabbi's Plus the added confusion that arises over the shift from numbered days in a lunar year to named days in a solar year... It is no wonder that people get so mixed up.

BTW this entire debate is linked to the subject of the calculation of Easter. Since Easter is celebrated each year on The actual week of the passion of Christ, it wanders in our Solar calendar. That is why Easter is a "Movable Feast".

One intersting fact that is illuminated by a proper (in my opinion) view of the OT Sabbath, is that the OT Sabbath as a Date actualy was celebrated during the course of the year on every Day of the week! Just as your B-day falls in turn on evey day of the week, so the OT Sabbath fell in turn on each "Day" of the week. In this way the rest of God redemed or rescued every day with his rest!

Thank you Kevin! That is exactly what I was looking for I cannot thank enough. I am going to have to read it over a couple more times just so everything sinks in.