When were angels made?

[Grant]

Were the angels created during the 6 days of creation recorded in Genesis 1 (assuming the 6 literal day stance, which I hold)? I believe so, myself.

I know it does not say so explicitly, but I have read at least one solid reformer state such and it seems the Westminster supports this as well. How does this factor in with the position of Satan being a fallen angel, meaning was he created and then found in rebellion shortly after? Maybe I just have a screw loose as I guess we don’t know the time between Day 7 and the Fall of man.

* Revised the above to attempt better clarity*

 

[TheInquirer]

Do we really know when Eve’s temptation occurred?

 

[timfost]

Job 38:4-7 says:

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

If the sons of God rejoiced at the foundations of the world being laid, this suggests they were created early, likely day one. We know that at day six God says the creation was very good, so Satan didn't fall until after the creation was finished.

 

[Nate]

I was recently reading through Heiddeger's The Concise Marrow of Theology. Locus VIII of this work is an interesting treatment of many aspects of angels. He has this to say:

Angel's are spirits created in time.

and

They were also created... together with heaven (Gen. 2:1)

and

Indeed, they are neither accidents of organs nor phantasms, because they were prior to the foundation of the earth and man's existence, at least as evil (Job 38:7, Gen. 3:1)

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Were the angels created during the 6 days of creation recorded in Genesis 1 (assuming the 6 literal day stance, which I hold)? I believe so, myself.

Hmm. Good question.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Do we really know when Eve’s temptation occurred?

Well, of course! Bishop Ussher tells us!

 

[Grant]

It is so easy for me to forget things I have ready within the past year. I remember finding Brakel brief and helpful on this subject, but I needed to review.

From The Christian’s Reasonable Service, Vol. 1:

The angels were created, for whatever exists is either Creator or creature. Since they are not the Creator, they are creatures and have been created. Paul confirms this when he states, “For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him” (Col 1:16). Although it cannot be stated with certainty on which day of creation they were created, we do know that they were not created prior to “the beginning.” Prior to the beginning there was nothing but God Himself who inhabiteth eternity, whereas all creatures have a chronological existence, making them increasingly distant from the initial moment of their existence. It is equally true that they were not created after the initial six days, since God perfectly completed everything within this time frame. It is most probable that as the heavenly host (Luke 2:13) they were created on the first day with the third heaven, for when the Lord in subsequent days brought forth everything from that shapeless mass of matter, they were already present. “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? ... When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).
In the beginning God created but one person, from whom He created a second, and out of these two the innumerable multitude of human beings has been brought forth. However, He created the entire, unfathomably large multitude of angels in one moment. There is “an innumerable company of angels” (Heb 12:22); “The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels” (Ps 68:17); “Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him” (Dan 7:10).

 

[Wretched Man]

Deeper question, does time exist in the Spiritual realm? Can the creation of angels be placed on a time spectrum?

 

[timfost]

Deeper question, does time exist in the Spiritual realm?

God is Spirit (John 4:24) and existed from eternity and before time (Tit. 1:2). However, time is essential to the existence of things created. It's not the "spiritual realm" that puts one outside of time. Even the souls in heaven now await their bodies, which means that Christ's return which will happen in time is still relevant to those in the "spiritual realm."

Can the creation of angels be placed on a time spectrum?

Yes, because creation is placed by God on a time spectrum-- six days.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[Wretched Man]

God is Spirit (John 4:24) and existed from eternity and before time (Tit. 1:2). However, time is essential to the existence of things created. It's not the "spiritual realm" that puts one outside of time. Even the souls in heaven now await their bodies, which means that Christ's return which will happen in time is still relevant to those in the "spiritual realm."



Yes, because creation is placed by God on a time spectrum-- six days.

Hopefully this helps.

Creation of the physical world is placed on a time spectrum, yes. Creation of the spiritual hosts, that I struggle with.

Any thoughts on Ezekiel 28:13? “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.“

If this is regarding, Satan, whom I think it is, this might suggest he was created during the 6 days of creation.

 

[timfost]

Creation of the physical world is placed on a time spectrum, yes. Creation of the spiritual hosts, that I struggle with.

Why?

Any thoughts on Ezekiel 28:13? “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.“

If this is regarding, Satan, whom I think it is, this might suggest he was created during the 6 days of creation.

I think this passage is difficult to apply to Satan since v. 12 addresses this to the King of Tyre. The following language seems to be metaphorical as it relates to its subject.

Be that as it may, I think an argument that essentially states that there is another creation before creation is purely speculative and extra-biblical.

 

[Wretched Man]

Why?

To quote Wayne Gruden in his Systematic Theology book, “The study of physics tells us that matter and time and space must all occur together: if there is no matter, there can be no space or time either.” Since angels appear to transcend matter, can they have been created in time (even though they may act in time as God does)?

I think this passage is difficult to apply to Satan since v. 12 addresses this to the King of Tyre. The following language seems to be metaphorical as it relates to its subject.

Be that as it may, I think an argument that essentially states that there is another creation before creation is purely speculative and extra-biblical.

I find it more difficult not to apply this (and Isaiah 14) to Satan than to simply a human king. I do agree with your latter point.

 

[timfost]

To quote Wayne Gruden in his Systematic Theology book, “The study of physics tells us that matter and time and space must all occur together: if there is no matter, there can be no space or time either.” Since angels appear to transcend matter, can they have been created in time (even though they may act in time as God does)?


I find it more difficult not to apply this (and Isaiah 14) to Satan than to simply a human king. I do agree with your latter point.

Exodus 20:11a:

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day."

 

[Wretched Man]

Exodus 20:11a:

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day."

Which translation are you citing? KJV? According to the ESV, "heaven" is in the singular tense. If in the singular, might this be referring to the atmosphere/outer space? My understanding of the Hebrew vernacular is there are three heavens: earth's atmosphere, outer space, and the spiritual realm of Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).

 

[TheInquirer]

If something is created, it is created at a point in time and thus bound by time.

I think you are making a huge error suggesting that God did not create all things during the creation week.

 

[timfost]

Which translation are you citing? KJV? According to the ESV, "heaven" is in the singular tense. If in the singular, might this be referring to the atmosphere/outer space? My understanding of the Hebrew vernacular is there are three heavens: earth's atmosphere, outer space, and the spiritual realm of Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).

For your consideration:

1. If the Hebrew concept of heaven includes the first and second heaven in material time and space, it seems that the Exodus passage at least assumes plurality. Unfortunately, I do not know Hebrew and cannot speak about it from a grammatical language perspective.

2. I think I have sufficiently proven that time is relevant in the spiritual realm. If relevant, why so hard to accept that angels were created in the creation week?

3. Finally, you have given me no substantial argument besides speculation. I don't feel like I have much to interact with...

 

[timfost]

Westminster 4.1

It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for the manifestation of the glory of his eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, in the beginning, to create or make of nothing the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good.

 

[Wretched Man]

For your consideration:

1. If the Hebrew concept of heaven includes the first and second heaven in material time and space, it seems that the Exodus passage at least assumes plurality. Unfortunately, I do not know Hebrew and cannot speak about it from a grammatical language perspective.

2. I think I have sufficiently proven that time is relevant in the spiritual realm. If relevant, why so hard to accept that angels were created in the creation week?

3. Finally, you have given me no substantial argument besides speculation. I don't feel like I have much to interact with...

I don’t have a strong stance on this, so am avoiding making assertions. And I am somewhat inclined to agree with you. The point I’m making is I’ve generally viewed the earth and heavens created in Genesis as the physical universe - not necessarily the Spiritually Heaven realm. I could certainly be viewing this incorrectly.

You earlier cited Job 38:7, which I would infer the Sons of God to be heavenly hosts (possibly angels). Perhaps they were created on day 1 and immediately worshipped. Though suspect they may have already been in existence to marvel at God’s physical creation? Or is it comparing apples and oranges to try and compare their creation to that of the world on a timeline?

When God proclaims his reign as “everlasting” or for “all eternity”, is he referring to endless literal time or simply using worldly concepts to describe the spiritual realm? I simply don’t know and haven’t been convinced yet of either (or another) possibility.

 

[Afterthought]

To quote Wayne Gruden in his Systematic Theology book, “The study of physics tells us that matter and time and space must all occur together: if there is no matter, there can be no space or time either.” Since angels appear to transcend matter, can they have been created in time (even though they may act in time as God does)?

Energy occurs with all that too: an immaterial concept (though still in the physical realm). Also, it should be noted that this statement of physics is based on an operationalist deifnition of time and space, i.e., time is what is measured by clocks. The philosophical understanding of time is different: it is that which conditions change or motion. God is the only unchangeable and eternal being that transcends time: everything else is of necessity bound to time. If something was not bound to time, it by definition would be eternal. See the quotation from Wilhelmus a Brakel by Grant earlier.

I wouldn't make a big deal about "heaven" being plural or singular. The KJV translates it as singular in Genesis 1:1, despite the Hebrew word being plural, possibly because the other heavens are created on the other days, e.g., Wilhelmus a Brakel understands the "heaven" of Genesis 1:1 to be the third heaven and then attention is shifted to the earth and earthly realms. Exodus 20:11 is also plural but might be translated in the singular for similar reasons or to make a contrast between "heaven" and "earth:" the point being that the two brought together are to show that everything was created within those six days.

 

[timfost]

I don’t have a strong stance on this, so am avoiding making assertions. And I am somewhat inclined to agree with you. The point I’m making is I’ve generally viewed the earth and heavens created in Genesis as the physical universe - not necessarily the Spiritually Heaven realm. I could certainly be viewing this incorrectly.

Remember, God created the human soul which is not material but spiritual and joined it to a physical body. This immaterial spiritual substance was created on day six. Therefore, even putting aside the creation of the heavenly host, the creation days were not only focused on material substances but also spiritual.

You earlier cited Job 38:7, which I would infer the Sons of God to be heavenly hosts (possibly angels). Perhaps they were created on day one and immediately worshipped. Though suspect they may have already been in existence to marvel at God’s physical creation? Or is it comparing apples and oranges to try and compare their creation to that of the world on a timeline?

I'm not certain I follow your train of thought here, but I'll try. How long did it take Adam to worship God? There was not a "learning curve" where he had to find out what it meant to worship God. He was not a fallen creature, but one created to worship God and be in perfect communion with God. He was created man-- not baby, toddler or child. Is it surprising that immediately after the creation of the heavenly host they were also ready to worship and marvel at the wonders of creation immediately? If indeed they were created on day one, wouldn't there be plenty of creating left for them to marvel at? Five days to be exact?

When God proclaims his reign as “everlasting” or for “all eternity”, is he referring to endless literal time or simply using worldly concepts to describe the spiritual realm? I simply don’t know and haven’t been convinced yet of either (or another) possibility.

Is space infinite? We think so. Yet it is smaller than the God who called it into existence. Infinite, eternal and immense are some of the best terms we can employ to describe God, yet they still fall short of understanding Him completely-- they are still insufficient words to encompass the full concept of the Triune God. Did God create a universe that was co-infinite with Him, or is the infinite universe infinitely smaller than God? Time affects the spiritual realm differently, since there is no decay, but it is nonetheless relevant in the spiritual realm. God exists outside of time, all creation inside of time.

We always use insufficient language to describe God. God communicates in language that incompletely reveals some of what and who He is. It is sufficient to know Him for salvation and to grow in a relationship with Him, but we should never attribute the limitations of our language to God.

 

[Wretched Man]

Remember, God created the human soul which is not material but spiritual and joined it to a physical body. This immaterial spiritual substance was created on day six. Therefore, even putting aside the creation of the heavenly host, the creation days were not only focused on material substances but also spiritual.



I'm not certain I follow your train of thought here, but I'll try. How long did it take Adam to worship God? There was not a "learning curve" where he had to find out what it meant to worship God. He was not a fallen creature, but one created to worship God and be in perfect communion with God. He was created man-- not baby, toddler or child. Is it surprising that immediately after the creation of the heavenly host they were also ready to worship and marvel at the wonders of creation immediately? If indeed they were created on day one, wouldn't there be plenty of creating left for them to marvel at? Five days to be exact?



Is space infinite? We think so. Yet it is smaller than the God who called it into existence. Infinite, eternal and immense are some of the best terms we can employ to describe God, yet they still fall short of understanding Him completely-- they are still insufficient words to encompass the full concept of the Triune God. Did God create a universe that was co-infinite with Him, or is the infinite universe infinitely smaller than God? Time affects the spiritual realm differently, since there is no decay, but it is nonetheless relevant in the spiritual realm. God exists outside of time, all creation inside of time.

We always use insufficient language to describe God. God communicates in language that incompletely reveals some of what and who He is. It is sufficient to know Him for salvation and to grow in a relationship with Him, but we should never attribute the limitations of our language to God.

All good points. Thanks

 

[Goodcheer68]

Any thoughts on Ezekiel 28:13? “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.“

Beyond the immediate reference point being the king of Tyre this is probably referring to Adam as a priest in the garden.

 

[Wretched Man]

Beyond the immediate reference point being the king of Tyre this is probably referring to Adam as a priest in the garden.

Interesting. The only issue I see with this is he is described later as a “guardian Cherub”...

 

[py3ak]

Which translation are you citing? KJV? According to the ESV, "heaven" is in the singular tense. If in the singular, might this be referring to the atmosphere/outer space? My understanding of the Hebrew vernacular is there are three heavens: earth's atmosphere, outer space, and the spiritual realm of Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).

In Hebrew, the word for heaven (שמים) is dual in form, though grammarians say it is plural in meaning (Gesenius, Waltke & O'Connor). It might not ever be demonstrably wrong to translate it "heavens" but there are probably cases where the singular, heaven, is quite understandable. For instance, in Genesis 1:8 where the singular firmament was called heaven(s) (dual).