When were Gods elect Justified?

[The Lamb]

I have been led to do a study on the topic of Justification; when and How are Gods Elect Justified. Until recently I was unaware of the distinct perspectives even within reformers themselves. SInce I believe Paul received the full and final revelation from Christ, I have concentrated my efforts in his writings. Paul claims 5 aspects that need to be understood:

1) By Faith
2) By the faith of Christ
3) By His blood
4) By His Death
5) By His Grace

Taking these all into consideration, as well as the belief in:

1) Eternal Justification
2) Justification at the poin t of believing
3) Justification at the cross
4) Justification at the judgment

I am wondering if all these have some truth, but which one is scripturally supported the most.

And also what is the relationship of faith to our justification.

Text

Please respond with any input please you may have

Joseph

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by joshua
Firstly, welcome, Joseph!

Thank you Joshua, and may God Bless you

 

[SolaScriptura]

WCF 11.4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect;(1) and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: (2) nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.(3)

(1)Gal. 3:8; 1 Pet. 1:2,19,20; Rom. 8:30.
(2)Gal. 4:4; Rom. 4:25.
(3)Col. 1:21,22; Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:4-7.

[Edited on 3-11-2005 by SolaScriptura]

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
WCF 11.4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect;(1) and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: (2) nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.(3)

(1)Gal. 3:8; 1 Pet. 1:2,19,20; Rom. 8:30.
(2)Gal. 4:4; Rom. 4:25.
(3)Col. 1:21,22; Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:4-7.

[Edited on 3-11-2005 by SolaScriptura]

Thank you Ben.

I am well aware of what the WCF says. But what concerns me is although they do not make faith the cause of justification, they make it the condition for justification. Why would some say that Christ redeemed sinners at the cross but God did not justify them there? Would it not be foreign to scripture to conclude that Christ our savior dies in our stead, but yet the application of the benefits of His death are not applied until one believes? Does this 3 fold understanding of Justification take our focus off the cross?

Before I continue, I would like ya'll to know that I am not comfortable expressing these thoughts because of the history of those blessed teachers of ours who penned our confessions. I do not consider the Doctrine of Justification to be a trivial matter. I can only pray that where we all may need more light, that God grants us the wisdom to push forward, and repentance of any false conclusions.


In His Love


Joseph

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by joshua
Joseph, what does Paul mean in these passages? (Not a loaded question...rather, a sincere inquiry)

Romans 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." 23But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will attempt a valid response Joshua since I am plagued by these questions. AS of right now, I have not reached a definitive conclusion on a subject so grand as Justification. On the surfvace it appears that Romans 4:24 has God justifying the person on his act of believing. But again, does this not lead to believing being a work? I do not know for sure. I have studied the original and it reads as follows,

"œBut also on account of us, to whom it applies (present, active tense), to those who are believing (present tense) on Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." What applies? The same righteousness of Christ that was imputed to Abraham (Romans 3:23) APPLIES to each of the Lord´s redeemed.

So In my limited understanding, Romans 4:24 simply addresses those to whom the Lord has already granted faith and believe, as did Abraham. They share the same ground of justification as He did, the blood and righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith then becomes the evidence and not the cause.

Again, after some original studies of Romans 5, and with the help of some more scholarly in Greek than I will ever be. The comma should come after justified and not faith. "œTherefore," refers back to the preceding verse in Romans 4:25- "œWho was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Romans 5:1 should then read, "œTherefore being, or having been declared just, (based on the redeeming work of Christ alone), by or, out of faith, we have peace with God"¦" The peace of God enjoyed by the justified sinner comes by God-given faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


In His Love

Joseph

 

[Puritan Sailor]

The traditional understanding of faith is not that it is a work, but that it is the instrumental means, which God provides to the sinner in his effectual calling, to unite him to Christ and appropriate His benefits.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by puritansailor
The traditional understanding of faith is not that it is a work, but that it is the instrumental means, which God provides to the sinner in his effectual calling, to unite him to Christ and appropriate His benefits.

Hello Patrick.

Yes, this is the traditional understanding. WHat continues to chisel at me is on one hand it says faith is not a work of ours, but we are justified at the point of having faith. AS if God puts our justification on hold. Perhaps I am reading something into the traditional understanding that is not intended.

Again, When Paul speaks of Justification before God, are the phrases he uses synonomous? ie: faith, grace, blood, Christs faith, his death?


In His Grace

Joseph

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

You have to make a distinction between virutal justification and actual justification.

Virtual justification is based on God's decree.

Actual justification is based on the application of Christ's work on us in time.

Virtual justification happened in the decree and on the cross as the means, and actual justification happned at a specific time.

We are creating a timeline, but to God it is instantaneous in both respects and coexstensive.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by webmaster
You have to make a distinction between virutal justification and actual justification.

Virtual justification is based on God's decree.

Actual justification is based on the application of Christ's work on us in time.

Virtual justification happened in the decree and on the cross as the means, and actual justification happned at a specific time.

We are creating a timeline, but to God it is instantaneous in both respects and coexstensive.

Hello Matthew.

Thank you for the explination of the distinctions that have to be made. After reading some sources, ie: GIll, Brine on eternal Justification, I found shreds of truth but to my limited understanding that postion leads to making the cross of Christ a "not needed" event.

Then according to the traditional understanding, it seems to make justification a 3 or four fold event. Another reason I am not 100% Scripturally satusfied.

I understand justification as God imputing the righteousness of Christ to His sheep. And Paul speaks of this as not dependant upon any means other than His death in scripture.

Can this be a one time final securing and applying event? And we only realize it once we come to faith?

Joseph

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by joshua
Joseph, I think you may be making this more complicated than it is. Our justification (i.e. imputed righteousness of Christ) was decreed beforehand, accomplished and secured by Christ's purchase on the cross, and is then realized/applied at conversion.

Yes Joshua. I guess I am confused if this is the correct understanding, than what role does faith play in our justification before God? Compared to before ourself.

Thank you all for the kind explinations thus far and not screaming heretic at me.


Joseph

 

[Arch2k]

I think we all agree that justification is the act of Christ's righteousness being imputed to the sinner. The question that needs to be asked at this point is HOW this takes place?

Does this imputation happen IMMEDIATELY (apart from any means)?

Does this imputation happen MEDIATELY (using means)?

In the same way that God regenerates a person only by means of the gospel, God only justifies a person by means of faith. Even this faith is a gift of God, and therefore is not a "prerequisite work" that man must accomplish before he can receive justification, for as Jonathan Edwards says, faith is the receiving itself. This faith is a faith that points to the work that EARNED our justification (INCLUDING the means of faith!). In fact, this faith is in Christ's work ALONE (see WCF on Saving Faith).

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
I think we all agree that justification is the act of Christ's righteousness being imputed to the sinner. The question that needs to be asked at this point is HOW this takes place?

Does this imputation happen IMMEDIATELY (apart from any means)?

Does this imputation happen MEDIATELY (using means)?

In the same way that God regenerates a person only by means of the gospel, God only justifies a person by means of faith. Even this faith is a gift of God, and therefore is not a "prerequisite work" that man must accomplish before he can receive justification, for as Jonathan Edwards says, faith is the receiving itself. This faith is a faith that points to the work that EARNED our justification (INCLUDING the means of faith!). In fact, this faith is in Christ's work ALONE (see WCF on Saving Faith).

Hello Jeff:

Perhaps my mild contention is that I also do not believe in Gospel Regeneration. So because of my presuppositions that God creates without means other than His divine will, and since election is without means, and the effectual call is without means, than can justification be without means before God?



In His Grace


Joseph

 

[Robin]

Romans 8.28-30 says,

And we know that all things work together for the good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose, because, those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover those whom he predestined, these he also called, those whom he called these he also justified, those whom he justified, these he also glorified.

Because of the way they link one part of salvation with another, these verses have been called "the golden chain." These verses speak of God's eternal, pre-creational, decisions. We're all familiar with vs.28. Notice, however, that those for whom all things work out, are those whom God has "called". He explains that the group of everyone called is the same group as those whom God foreknew. Everyone he "foreknew" belongs to the same group of those who have been "predestined". This is the same group as those who are "justified" (i.e., declared to be righteous before God). The same group about whom all these other things are said, is the same group whom God will glorify. In each verse it is God who is the subject of the verse, the person doing the action, and those whom he is saving are the objects of God's gracious acts.

Salvation is from God from beginning to end. By definition, grace excludes human effort. Grace rescues a drowning man unable to save himself. Grace is raises the dead to life by the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Bible calls Christians the "elect". The noun "elect" (that is, "the chosen ones") occurs 25 times in the New Testament.43 Using the word "elect" or "chosen" only makes sense in the context of God's sovereign predestinating grace. Believers are elect because we have been chosen by God, not because they have helped God to be a Saviour. In Ephesians 1.1-15 Paul explains how, when and why God decided to save us. How is "in Christ". In vv.3,4,10 Paul says that we (believers) were chosen "in Christ",

before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and blameless before Him, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.44

According to God's Word, those who believe were chosen by God before the world was created so that he would glorified (Ephesians 1.6). How? "Having predestined us...". God in His grace chose us, even though were worthy of destruction. We believe because God predestined us to believe. Why? Because it is "according to the good pleasure of His will."

It could be said that God uses human history as the "means" to accomplish glorifying His Name (via the story of Redemption).

God uses means to create - "matter" as CS Lewis put it. The means He uses are as mundane and earthy as: a virgin giving birth; words on paper that are empowered with His Spirit to bring about His desired actions; human speech & hearing of His Words; bread and wine; flesh and blood...these earthy "means" are what He uses....

Of course, God doesn't need to use anything else to create (as Scripture says) but, He does, nonetheless. Stand back and notice the big picture...He is using tangible "means" - human history, to accomplish His story - for His own purposes.

Joseph.....and keep pondering the deep things of God!

Robin

 

[The Lamb]

Thank you Robin for the wonderful words. Words that are certainly dear to my heart. This subject is one that is filled with comfort and joy for Gods elect. And that is why it deserves my utmost.

I do not enjoy looking at those divines that have gone before us and say they may have understood it wrong or incomplete. But when I read some of their writings, I cannot help to feel that some have either put and overemphasis on the decree in eternity, and others who have emphasised the role of faith in our justification. Jeff hit the nail on the head for me in his response. And I am inclined to poll for his first quesion. That God regenerates and justifies immediately by imputing the righteousness of Christ to his elect based on His death with no external means. And thus faith and repentance becomes the fruit of our justification, calling and election. I know some here may say I am out of line, or who am I, this infantile believer to question the authority of those divines in our past, but my only intent is to be a faithful witness to the Scriptures and Christ.

The best definition of the justification is that found in Scripture itself, not any creed or confession.

Romans 3:24 "œBeing justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
Romans 5:9 "œMuch more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."


Therefore being justified, it is by faith (the gift of faith to believe) that redeemed and justified sinners come to realize their redemption, justification, and forgiveness of sins and enter into the peace with God in their very being. However, it is not then that God imputes the righteousness of Christ. That was already done on their behalf at the cross 2 Corinthians 5:21


In His Grace


Joe

 

[Arch2k]

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Joe, I have actually studied eternal justification before and had the same questions you did. While not a common doctrine, giants of the faith John Gill and Herman Hoeksema contended adamently for it.

One of the questions that caused me to reject the doctrine is "In what sense are we justified BY faith?" as stated in the above verses. I don't believe it does justice to these scriptures to say "We come to a REALIZATION of our justification when we come to faith."

In what sense would you say that we ARE justified by faith?

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Joe, I have actually studied eternal justification before and had the same questions you did. While not a common doctrine, giants of the faith John Gill and Herman Hoeksema contended adamently for it.

One of the questions that caused me to reject the doctrine is "In what sense are we justified BY faith?" as stated in the above verses. I don't believe it does justice to these scriptures to say "We come to a REALIZATION of our justification when we come to faith."

In what sense would you say that we ARE justified by faith?

I agree Jeff. And have studied it also from the same men you mentioned. I would not break fellowship over it, but find it lacking in scriptural support.

I believe that Romans 1:17 sheds some light on the issue for me. That our justification is REVEALED by faith. Reveals the Gospel to us. That is certainly the sense of Romans 3:28 where faith is used in opposition to the "˜law of works.´



Joseph

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by The Lamb

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Joe, I have actually studied eternal justification before and had the same questions you did. While not a common doctrine, giants of the faith John Gill and Herman Hoeksema contended adamently for it.

One of the questions that caused me to reject the doctrine is "In what sense are we justified BY faith?" as stated in the above verses. I don't believe it does justice to these scriptures to say "We come to a REALIZATION of our justification when we come to faith."

In what sense would you say that we ARE justified by faith?

I agree Jeff. And have studied it also from the same men you mentioned. I would not break fellowship over it, but find it lacking in scriptural support.

I believe that Romans 1:17 sheds some light on the issue for me. That our justification is REVEALED by faith. Reveals the Gospel to us. That is certainly the sense of Romans 3:28 where faith is used in opposition to the "˜law of works.´

Joseph

I understand your point of view. However, do you believe that interpretation does justice to the texts I provided? That would mean that there is NO sense in which we are justified BY faith.

Eternal justification says that faith merely REVEALS the fact that we ARE justified. No doubt most Calvinists would agree with Romans 1:17, that when a person comes to faith, the righteousness of God is revealed to them. But is this all that happens? More texts supplied above seem to say that there is much more that happens. They all say we are justified by faith. That is the means that God uses to justify us.

As for these happening IMMEDIATELY, I would point you to Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

The gospel is the "power of God TO SALVATION!" The words of scripture have power. The words of scripture are in fact Christ himself! It is no coincidence that the phrase "Word of God" is used equally for the Bible and for Christ himself. Look to Genesis 1 to see that God "spoke" creation into existence. This is the same re-creating word that gives new life to us in regeneration. This is the same word that goes forth in the call of the gospel and justifies God's elect.

I'm rambling on a bit. But the thrust of all this is to challenge you to answer "In what sense are we justified by faith?"

I think that after contemplating the positions, eternal justification cannot do justice in answering this question.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel

Originally posted by The Lamb

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Joe, I have actually studied eternal justification before and had the same questions you did. While not a common doctrine, giants of the faith John Gill and Herman Hoeksema contended adamently for it.

One of the questions that caused me to reject the doctrine is "In what sense are we justified BY faith?" as stated in the above verses. I don't believe it does justice to these scriptures to say "We come to a REALIZATION of our justification when we come to faith."

In what sense would you say that we ARE justified by faith?

I agree Jeff. And have studied it also from the same men you mentioned. I would not break fellowship over it, but find it lacking in scriptural support.

I believe that Romans 1:17 sheds some light on the issue for me. That our justification is REVEALED by faith. Reveals the Gospel to us. That is certainly the sense of Romans 3:28 where faith is used in opposition to the "˜law of works.´

Joseph

I understand your point of view. However, do you believe that interpretation does justice to the texts I provided? That would mean that there is NO sense in which we are justified BY faith.

Eternal justification says that faith merely REVEALS the fact that we ARE justified. No doubt most Calvinists would agree with Romans 1:17, that when a person comes to faith, the righteousness of God is revealed to them. But is this all that happens? More texts supplied above seem to say that there is much more that happens. They all say we are justified by faith. That is the means that God uses to justify us.

As for these happening IMMEDIATELY, I would point you to Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

The gospel is the "power of God TO SALVATION!" The words of scripture have power. The words of scripture are in fact Christ himself! It is no coincidence that the phrase "Word of God" is used equally for the Bible and for Christ himself. Look to Genesis 1 to see that God "spoke" creation into existence. This is the same re-creating word that gives new life to us in regeneration. This is the same word that goes forth in the call of the gospel and justifies God's elect.

I'm rambling on a bit. But the thrust of all this is to challenge you to answer "In what sense are we justified by faith?"

I think that after contemplating the positions, eternal justification cannot do justice in answering this question.

Jeff, I have a meeting to attend, but I wil leave you with this. I am not a 100% proponent of eternal justification. What I believe is we are justified immediately at the cross. Not in the decree before the foundation of the world. Then faith is given to us as a gift.

 

[pastorway]

If we are justified immediately and actually AT the cross then why do we have to believe?

What purpose does conversion serve if we are already declared right before God?

Phillip

 

[Puritanhead]

We were saved 2,000 years ago on the Cross at Calvary, saved when the Holy Spirit regenerated us, saved when we took heed to sound doctrine, and we will be saved when we are raised in glorification. I say yesterday, today, and tomorrow we're saved. That was a minor theme underlying my first sermon on the ordo salutis. Read Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray.

I was elected by God the Father before time immemorial, redeemed by the crosswork of the Son, and made alive by the Holy Spirit.


[Edited on 3-11-2005 by Puritanhead]

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by pastorway
If we are justified immediately and actually AT the cross then why do we have to believe?

What purpose does conversion serve if we are already declared right before God?

Phillip

Excellent questions Phillip. Thank you kindly for asking. I will answe in due time, but as of now I need to busy myself with some family responsibilities.


Joseph

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by The Lamb]

 

[pastorway]

posted by Puritanhead
We were saved 2,000 years ago on the Cross at Calvary, saved when the Holy Spirit regenerated us, saved when we took heed to sound doctrine, and we will be saved when we are raised in glorification. I say yesterday, today, and tomorrow we're saved. That was a minor theme underlying my first sermon on the ordo salutis. Read Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray.

I was elected by God the Father before time immemorial, redeemed by the crosswork of the Son, and made alive by the Holy Spirit.

yes, but......

We need to be clear especially in the context of this question that before faith you and I were children of wrath, needed to hear the gospel, repent and believe, and when the Spirit called us to life and gave us repentance and faith, then we were justified.

You cannot be justified before God without faith.

The other issue that comes up, which is why I posted the questions I did (and good follow up Josh!), was that there are some in reformed circles who believe in eternal justification and as a result preach and teach that we need not be converted, need not have the gospel preached to us, and need not, indeed should not, preach the gospel to others.

I knew one preacher who said he did not believe in conversion. You either were elect or you were not and that settled it. So he told people, literally, that they were either elect or not, that it was God's choice, that they were commanded to live a "Christian" life, but that in the end would not know if they were elect or not until they entered heaven or hell! No conversion, no assurance, no motivation for holy living, and no true understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in converting us!

The possible implications of the idea of eternal justification completely removes the responsibility of sinners to obey the gospel (repentance and faith) and it removes conversion from the ordo salutis altogether.

Obviously then, this doctrine is usually (not always, but most of the time)held by those who either are or are leaning hyper-Calvinistic. The examples given thus far of Gill and Hoeksema are illustrations of this point as both men have been shown to be to some degree hyper-Calvinists. Even Spurgeon said of Gill that he was a "high" Calvinist.

So we need to examine the doctrine of justification and all the while keep an eye on where our conclusions will drive the practical application and living out of our theology.

Phillip

[Edited on 3-12-05 by pastorway]

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by pastorway

posted by Puritanhead
We were saved 2,000 years ago on the Cross at Calvary, saved when the Holy Spirit regenerated us, saved when we took heed to sound doctrine, and we will be saved when we are raised in glorification. I say yesterday, today, and tomorrow we're saved. That was a minor theme underlying my first sermon on the ordo salutis. Read Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray.

I was elected by God the Father before time immemorial, redeemed by the crosswork of the Son, and made alive by the Holy Spirit.

yes, but......

We need to be clear especially in the context of this question that before faith you and I were children of wrath, needed to hear the gospel, repent and believe, and when the Spirit called us to life and gave us repentance and faith, then we were justified.

You cannot be justified before God without faith.
[Edited on 3-12-05 by pastorway]

I can only amen your You cannot be justified before God without faith statement... which i perceive as a construtive criticism of my statement. for want of brevity, i didn't elucidate with much clarity earlier. I believe I hit the nail on the head in my half-hour sermon on Hebrews 12:2! I covered doctrine from predestination to glorification. I was attentive at my fous on the doctrine of justification. I got a lot of compliments.

Those that persevere until the end are Christ's children.

I'd be happy to provide a transcript of my sermon for any learned Reformed pastors to critique it. I want to take heed to sound doctrine, and grow in sanctification as well as my understanding of the Word.

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Puritanhead]

 

[TimV]

So we need to examine the doctrine of justification and all the while keep an eye on where our conclusions will drive the practical application and living out of our theology.

Nice. We are saved from the foundations of the world, but we are also saved at a particular place and time. Just like God can be hungry and God can't be hungry.

There comes a point where we can't carry logical points farther than the limits given in Scripture.

 

[pastorway]

Ryan,

Your post was good, and actually made a good opportunity for me to post what I had been thinking about the implications of believing "eternal justification" - so I was not critiquing as much as using your post for a foundation off which to leap!

Phillip


[Edited on 3-12-05 by pastorway]

 

[pastorway]

Another error to beware of, by the Way, is that of the Federal Vision crowd, who say that justification is future, at the time of the judgment. Looking at it as eschatological justification they can then try to get away with telling people that they are elected to the covenant instead of elected to salvation. That way you can be elect and damned!

 

[andreas]

May i add, that before faith comes grace?"the God of all grace", 1 Pet. 5:10 ,justifies the ungodly. It is "the God of all grace" who saves His people, asking for nothing,and giving them everything. We are, "being justified freely by His grace", Rom. 3:24,
andreas.

 

[Augusta]

I heard RC Sproul explain this in a way that made a lot of sense at a conference here in WA. He said that the faith we exercise is in fact our own but we can only exercise it after the Holy Spirit has quickened us and taken out our heart of stone and given us a heart of flesh and that our desire is now turned toward God instead of against him thus we willingly in this state of regeneration can exercise faith now that the bonds of sin and death have been removed. So that we can truly say that we put our faith in him but of course only after being "born again" or being made alive etc etc. I hope this is making sense.

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Augusta]

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by andreas
May i add, that before faith comes grace?"the God of all grace", 1 Pet. 5:10 ,justifies the ungodly. It is "the God of all grace" who saves His people, asking for nothing,and giving them everything. We are, "being justified freely by His grace", Rom. 3:24,
andreas.

Excellent point. And one you spoke before I was able. This clearly shows that justification precedes faith. For those who have faith or believe are not the ungodly. Faith becomes the fruit of justification.

In regards to Romans 3:34. Can we not conclude without destroying the text, that His grace justifies us without any means, through the redemption in Christ Jesus, ie; His death?

Then our faith Lays hold of the promise of forgiveness and reconcilitaion and the pure Joy of God justifying the ungodly man we are.

To say we are Justified by faith before God means we have tthe fullness of His Gospel revealed to our beings and lay hold on this precious pearl of great price.

Paul uses many words that would seem to be synonomous.

faith.grace.redemption.death.blood.Christs faith. My question is why has "by Faith" been elevated above the rest? When reading all the others, I am led to believe they all point to His death.



In His Grace,

Joseph

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by The Lamb]

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by The Lamb
Excellent point. And one you spoke before I was able. This clearly shows that justification precedes faith. For those who have faith or believe are not the ungodly. Faith becomes the fruit of justification.
[Edited on 3-12-2005 by The Lamb]

I contend that this does not show that justification precedes faith. Because justification is merely of grace, does not exclude means. Grace is merely (undeserved favor). Does a fallen wretch like myself deserve the gift of faith from God? Absolutely not. However, even that gift of faith was given "merely of grace."

Originally posted by The Lamb
faith.grace.redemption.death.blood.Christs faith. My question is why has "by Faith" been elevated above the rest? When reading all the others, I am led to believe they all point to His death.

Amen. Faith must not be elevated above the rest. In fact, our act of faith could not earn, merit or give us salvation, were in not the fact that God deemed to use those means. When faith is given to big a place in salvation, it destroys the gospel (i.e. Arminian). That being said, the Calvinist position aleviates making salvation a meritorious work on our part. Instead, faith now becomes a meritorious work that Christ earned for us 2000 years ago.

The Classical position is that faith in and of itself cannot justify. However, with faith, God applies the righteousness of Christ to a person, and because of his righteousness, we are justified.

I like to think of it this way. If a person has overdosed on drugs, and their heart has stopped beating, they are officially dead. Sometimes a shot of Adreniline to the heart is used to "raise them from the dead" (so to speak). What saved them? Was it the man that gave the shot? Was it the needle that contained the life giving medicine? Was it the Adreniline itself? I like to compare the Adreniline to the righteousness of Christ....it ACTUALLY saves you. The needle is comparative to our faith. It is the means that is used to GIVE us the rightousness of Christ. The needle in an of itself can do nothing. But the righteousness of Christ has the power of life. (BTW, this analogy breaks down real fast, so don't take it too far )

I believe this shows how justification can be "merely of grace" and yet include the means of faith.