When will "all ends of earth turn"?

[nwink]

My understanding is that one important difference between "Pessimistic"-Amils and "Optimistic"-Amils & Postmils, in relation to all the OT prophecies about the ends of earth turning to the Lord and the nations worshipping the Lord, is that the first group says this will all happen at Christ's coming and not before his coming...but the second group says this will happen progressively throughout time so that one day (before Christ's coming) all ends of the earth will turn to the Lord.

What text(s) do you use to support your position on WHEN this turning will happen? Please explain.

 

[Peairtach]

The ends of the earth can't turn to the Lord when Christ returns. Their eternal state is sealed then. There will be no more turning to the Lord when Christ wraps up history.

Christ turns the ends of the earth to Himself in history, before the Eschaton.

There are lots of texts that suppose this. E.g. the leavening of the three measures of meal in the Parable of the Leaven is progressive not cataclysmic. Likewise the growth of the Mustard Seed into a tree. Likewise the growth of Daniel's stone into a mountain that fills the Earth, etc, etc. The Church doesn't currently fill the Earth.


How did Joshua, David and Solomon possess the Land that was given them by God? It took 400 years of progressive and apparently uneven progress.

All power in Heaven and on Earth has been given to Christ and He is progressively taking possession of Earth's "utmost line" by His Word, Spirit and Church, and making a display of His enemies in His Providence.

 

[J. Dean]

Isn't that more about the elect in the ends of the world? Because the idea of the entire world worshipping Christ sounds too much like universalism (unless you are considering the passage in Philippians 2 about every knee bowing and tongue confessing).

 

[Fogetaboutit]

I would say that the nations (gentiles) worshipping the Lord mean's just that, that men from all nations will worship the Lord during his reign on earth (which I interpret as the entire church era and not only at the end). It does not necessarily means that "every" citizen of every nations will worship the Lord. The Gospel will be preached throughout the world and men (and women) from every nations throughtout the World will be converted since the covenant is not limited to the "nation" of Israel anymore.

Revelation 7:9 (KJV)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Here it says that People "from" all nations will stand before the throne, not every single person living on earth.

The last days are the entire new testament era and not only the last portion of this era.

1 John 2:18 (KJV)


Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John seem to be saying that at the time he was writting this letter it was already the "last time".

 

[nwink]

I would say that the nations (gentiles) worshipping the Lord mean's just that, that men from all nations will worship the Lord during his reign on earth (which I interpret as the entire church era and not only at the end). It does not necessarily means that "every" citizen of every nations will worship the Lord. The Gospel will be preached throughout the world and men (and women) from every nations throughtout the World will be converted since the covenant is not limited to the "nation" of Israel anymore.

Etienne, so in terms of the OT prophecies about all ends of earth turning to the Lord (Ps 22), all nations worshipping before Him (Ps 86), etc,...do you interpret these prophecies as meaning that some people from all the nations turn to the Lord...or that "nations" as nations (ie, corporately, a large part of the nation, etc) turning to the Lord?

 

[Fogetaboutit]

Etienne, so in terms of the OT prophecies about all ends of earth turning to the Lord (Ps 22), all nations worshipping before Him (Ps 86), etc,...do you interpret these prophecies as meaning that some people from all the nations turn to the Lord...or that "nations" as nations (ie, corporately, a large part of the nation, etc) turning to the Lord?

From my understanding it would be some people "from" all nations, if nation corporately would turn to the Lord it doesn't seem to fit with the passages that speak of God pouring his wrath on the reprobates.

I guess it all depends how you look at it, if you look at Rev 7:9 mentionned in my previous post you see people from all nation before the throne, this passages seem to be referring to a scene where only the elects are taken into consideration and the reprobates are ignored, kind of the same way God can look at us and declare us righteous today because of the seal of the holy spirit even if our body is still sinful. Only the righteousness of Christ in us is taken into consideration and not our sinful nature.

Today the Kingdom of Christ (which is spiritual) is already here but not consumated completely yet. It exist in paralell with the kingdom of Satan until Christ completely destroys it and bring the eternal state, so sometime in prophecy only the Kingdom of Christ (spiritual side) is refered to and sometime both sides are referred. That is my understanding so far anyway.