Who is fearfully and wonderfully made?

[Afterthought]

A quick question. How do we know that Psalm 139 applies to all? That is, that all are fearfully and wonderfully made? In its original context, it seems to be referring to the Psalmist only. With an eye to fulfillment, however, it especially refers to Christ. I suppose we could say that all the Psalms are meant to apply to the believer in some way, but some Psalms speak about being perfect, and that seems it can only be true with respect to the believer's union with Christ rather than the believer himself or herself.

I ask because it was recently brought to my attention that the first few verses of Jeremiah (about God knowing him before birth) were spoken to Jeremiah only in its original context. Like with the question about the Psalm, it seems rather obvious that it should apply more broadly, but by what process of reasoning do we use to go from the original context to the broader application? I thought of using Psalm 139 as support, but I ran into the same problem of moving from interpretation in its original context and the broader principle the text makes.

 

[VictorBravo]

I am not really understanding your question, but I think we see David, as a man, being overwhelmed at his awareness of God's sovereignty over all aspects of his being. His creation, his daily life, his thoughts. David, being a man, notes that "such knowledge is too wonderful for me."

He is describing the condition of every created human on earth, but also is overwhelmed by and full of praise to God who has granted such awareness to him.

So the truths of God's sovereignty apply to every person, regardless of whether they believe or not. But those of us who hear his voice will also be brought to share his sense of wonder and praise.

 

[Afterthought]

I am not really understanding your question, but I think we see David, as a man, being overwhelmed at his awareness of God's sovereignty over all aspects of his being. His creation, his daily life, his thoughts. David, being a man, notes that "such knowledge is too wonderful for me."

Thanks for the reply! My question is what is the process of reasoning that we use by which we move from knowing David said this of himself to knowing that this is true of everyone? Your answer is that David says this as a man. How do we know this? Or perhaps I'm pressing these questions too far?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

You have to ask interpretive questions of any passage. And you need to bring to bear the whole of revelation. It's one thing to make the initial observation that the Psalmist of Ps.139 is speaking about himself.

Well, what does it mean when he says he is "fearfully and wonderfully made"? Doesn't the passage reveal something "creational" about this person? Which person was ever not made and framed in secret? Is it the case that I also have had substance that was molded and shaped into a little body?

If questions like this are answered in a universal manner, that is, they apply to everyone the same, then consequential statements like "in your book all the days fashioned for me were written" are by implication universalized as well. One really needs an argument for why such a conclusion should not be universalized, but particularized to the Psalmist.
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OK, what does it mean that Jeremiah was "known" by the Lord before he was even formed in the womb (Jer.1:5)? What does it mean that he was "sanctified" and "ordained a prophet" before birth? Are these sorts of things universals?

I don't think these are "creational" words and statements, but reflect redemptive categories. And right there you have at least one division within mankind--the saved and the lost, the elect and the reprobate. Intimate knowledge by God is closely associated with objects of his love; we find that idea all over the Bible. We have to bring our theology to the text, as much as our elementary textual skill.

The other words are progressively more particular notions. "Set apart" or sanctified usually implies a special purpose, so we are probably not talking about simple sanctification (except where we also realize that believer's sanctification is oriented to the works that God has "prepared beforehand that we should walk in them," Eph.2:10). I strongly believe that Jeremiah is yet another one of God's elect who, like John the Baptist, are regenerated before birth, or so close to the womb that it makes no noticeable difference. This child reveals living faith early, and Jeremiah does not know a time when he did not know his covenant God. And it is important to note that covenant-context, because not every believer of later life was born into a believing or church-going family. It becomes hard to speak of alien children, who are later adopted into the family of God direct from heathenism, as being "sanctified from the womb."

So, dispensing with a universalistic idea, we have gone down to dualistic, and from there to an even greater narrowing of description to believer's seed. And the idea of Jeremiah's early spiritual ordination for ministry takes us down even further. The description fits with John the Baptist's special selection, and we can appeal as well to Samson's (for sure), and probably Samuel's. We may also take Paul's words concerning himself into account here, Gal.1:15. In other words, there is even more of a narrowing of a general idea to Jeremiah and persons like him of whom such descriptions might possibly be applied.
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But we also accept that Jer.1 is a passage that is about Jeremiah. It isn't about everybody, or even lots of people. So, there are aspects of what is said about Jeremiah that we might think of in terms of a few people like him, or lots more people as that which applies to him also applies more generally. But those sorts of things are related to and expressed by the complete theology that contextualizes any particular text. We expect the variety of particular texts to harmonize with the Bible's text as a whole.

Ps.139 is a "believer's" (in this case, David's) testimony. We recognize throughout the Psalm that the expressions of faith contained in it belong not only to him, but to me. As the church's universal hymnbook, we ought to expect to relate to the "humanity" of the sentiments throughout. That these sentiments are especially and perfectly expressed in terms of the Savior and Substitute, only makes me appreciate his identification with David, and with me as well.

 

[J. Dean]

I would ask if there is anything in the passage meant to give the impression that David is talking about himself in an exclusionary manner. Frankly, I don't see how that could be the case.

 

[Afterthought]

Thanks! With respect to the Jeremiah passage, couldn't we also use it to show that God does know individuals (Christian or non-Christian) before they're born by comparing it to Psalm 139? That is, that God creates each person for some specific purpose? Or is that stretching the text too far?

 

[Afterthought]

Bumping.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

You want to be careful not to try to extract too much information from a text; simply because it's good theology, doesn't mean it may be found where it isn't stated. Personally, I don't think that simply by putting those two passages together you will get a doctrine of universal-knowledge in the sense you seem to be seeking. What kind of "knowledge" is spoken of in the Jeremiah passage? Is it speaking of God's exhaustive awareness of every detail of anyone's life in advance? I don't think it's speaking in those terms. Is.45:5 uses "know" again with special reference to the elect.

So, assuming it is a biblical doctrine (and it is) you have to go to passages where such a thing is more clearly stated or implied. The Ps.139:16 is an excellent place to begin. There's a good argument that the language is "creational" and thus universal. Is.41:22-23 is an argument for the sovereign power of God, to explain the meaning of past events, or the prediction of future ones. Only the God who ordered all the events, from beginning to end, can justify his claim to impose the true meaning on former things, and predict in advance what will take place in accordance with his plans.

Act.15:18 (TR text) uses "know" in a different sense, "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Mat 10:29-30 speak of God' meticulous providence, down to the least detail: "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered." From God's general and total authority over all things (e.g. Ps.103:19; Dan.4:35) even the evil (Act.2:23; 4:27-28; Gen.50:20), we affirm that ALL things happen according to God's design, but ultimately to the blessedness exclusively of the elect, Rom.8:28.

Evil exists by permission, but it certainly exists for that it was permitted, and God's will alone determines what comes to be. And we understand that the ultimate purpose for evil is that it may be evidently abolished, Prv.16:4, and God be eternally praised for its ruin by those rescued from its power and effects. Given that God has clearly decreed the course of a believer's life (Ps.139; or note Gen.45:5,7,8--it is three times affirmed that God sent him), and his life intersects with the ungodly, how can the ungodly's lives be less ordered? How otherwise would the intersection be determined? God is not reactive, but proactive. If he has not foreordained the ruin of it, how can he say of the strange woman, "Her feet go down to death; Her steps take hold on Sheol" Prv.5:5? Perhaps she will avoid it, for all he knows (if he did not determine its certainty).

So, it seems absurd to think something akin to this: that God knows the number of believer's hairs, but not the unbeliever's. The Bible is a witness for believers, but it will also witness against the unbeliever. God determined that the Christ would die, and by whose hands and by what means it was foreordained it should happen, Mt.26:24; Jn.17:12. The Bible is written to comfort the submissive and humble heart. The believing heart thinks, "God knows best; I'm thankful for this witness to God's minute control." The unbeliever needs to be warned to flee from the END of his rebellion, "Today is the day of salvation." However much of his cheerful wickedness the damned comes to see was ordered and turned by God against him, so much the worse for his end.

 

[Afterthought]

Thanks again! That is quite helpful, especially the details which help show the way a person's reasoning works with such things.