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Was the desire of the Galatians sinful?
For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. Gal. 4:15
That's plainly hyperbole.
On the difference between blood and organs, here are the thoughts of Ronald Hanko of the Protestant Reformed Churches:
[T]here is a very essential difference between blood donation and organ transplants- that is that blood is a renewable substance. If I give a pint of blood as a blood donor I do not spend the rest of my life going about with one pint less blood than others! It renews within my body. An analogy might be a nursing mother's milk; by feeding her baby and 'donating' milk she gives what her body will renew, so long as she continues lactating. Possibly hair and finger and toe nails also are analogous to blood in that sense. But organs are essentially different, in that they are not renewable by the body! No kidney donor grows a replacement kidney, no new liver or heart develops in a body from which they are taken. So, extremely unlike blood, organs are an essential part of an individual body, an essential and unalienable part of a whole created by God, and to be ultimately resurrected or changed by Him. Therein lies the essential difference and dividing line, and the reason why Christians can oppose organ transplants without any hint of the Jehovah's Witness nonsense about blood transfusions and the 'soul in the blood' etc."
Rev. Winzer, could you expand on your point? I'm not sure what you're trying to say beyond Jesus' authority over his own body.
Thank you for your response, brother. If my wife and I were in that situation, I would say, "We are in God's hands, and we commit ourselves to him. Others will try to convince us to do a transplant, but we have to honor God in this. We cannot sin that good may come."
Brother,
I believe that Matt. 15:6 applies to your position. I speak gently-- but I believe it is a hypocritical position that effectively neglects God's commandment.
Would you put your hand into a machine to save someone else, even if it meant losing your hand? Also, when too much blood is lost, the body cannot recover. By your own definition, isn't blood then a permanent body part?
To be honest, your question about putting my hand into a machine is challenging--I'll have to think it over. My first thought was, Of course I would!, but I see your point. I'll think it over.
To make things clear, if the tables were turned, and I were the one with the failing kidney, I would turn it down.
Brother, I want to gain some clarity on your argument, so bare with me. What's the premise that gets us from "God owns our bodies" and "our bodies (including their constituent parts, like kidneys) are united to Christ and redeemed by Him" to the conclusion "therefore, our kidneys are not ours to give?"
Surely, all things that we have belong to God and in that sense are not ours to give. Nevertheless, our God gives many good things over which we are to be wise stewards (e.g., our money). Though our financial resources belong to God, nothing precludes us from using or even giving it away for the good of our neighbor, correct?
Also, given the rate at which our organs regenerate, we never have, in some sense, the same organs, bones, etc. with which we were born with. Moreover, all of our bodies rot in the grave. Why cannot we give an organ to save our neighbor's life, which otherwise would rot in the ground? I think it is both loving God and our neighbor to do so. That being said, we do not have permission to give away, say, our heart and other vital organs while living. Such would be suicide and illicit.
Huh? 1 Cor 7 says the husband has authority over the wife's body, and likewise she has authority over her husbands. If you are married, your body does not belong to you alone.
Good question. I don't think that the identity of our bodies consist in having the exact same cells that our bodies have now. Otherwise our bodies at death are not even identical to the bodies we had ten years prior. The identity of our bodies, however, I do not think depends strictly having the same exact cells, molecules, etc.So how do you understand the Confession's (and the Bible's) teaching that the bodies that will be raised on the last day are the same ones we have now?
Thank you for your response, brother. If my wife and I were in that situation, I would say, "We are in God's hands, and we commit ourselves to him. Others will try to convince us to do a transplant, but we have to honor God in this. We cannot sin that good may come."
Brother,
I believe that Matt. 15:6 applies to your position. I speak gently-- but I believe it is a hypocritical position that effectively neglects God's commandment.
Would you put your hand into a machine to save someone else, even if it meant losing your hand? Also, when too much blood is lost, the body cannot recover. By your own definition, isn't blood then a permanent body part?
To be honest, your question about putting my hand into a machine is challenging--I'll have to think it over. My first thought was, Of course I would!, but I see your point. I'll think it over.
To make things clear, if the tables were turned, and I were the one with the failing kidney, I would turn it down.
The difference in the hand in the machine and the transplanted organ is this--the transplanted organ is understood as a possession that my be transferred from one owner to another. The loss of a hand in saving another's life is collateral damage.
The resurrection is of course a miracle. The question of being resurrected shouldn't enter into the question of e.g. providing a kidney for one's ill daughter or wife. God is not stumped by such things or by martyrs with missing heads.
So, if our bodies are part of us, and belong with our souls, then the individual parts of our bodies belong with our souls and with the other parts of our bodies. To separate any part of a man is highly unnatural.
I don't think that organ donation is necessarily immoral. For those that do, is it necessarily sinful to amputate/remove diseased limbs, organs or any tissue if it means prolonging a person's life? If it isn't that seems inconsistent. You can give up bad tissue for oneself to live but not good tissue for another to live?
Good question. I don't think that the identity of our bodies consist in having the exact same cells that our bodies have now. Otherwise our bodies at death are not even identical to the bodies we had ten years prior. The identity of our bodies, however, I do not think depends strictly having the same exact cells, molecules, etc.
Thank you for your response, brother. If my wife and I were in that situation, I would say, "We are in God's hands, and we commit ourselves to him. Others will try to convince us to do a transplant, but we have to honor God in this. We cannot sin that good may come."
Brother,
I believe that Matt. 15:6 applies to your position. I speak gently-- but I believe it is a hypocritical position that effectively neglects God's commandment.
Would you put your hand into a machine to save someone else, even if it meant losing your hand? Also, when too much blood is lost, the body cannot recover. By your own definition, isn't blood then a permanent body part?
To be honest, your question about putting my hand into a machine is challenging--I'll have to think it over. My first thought was, Of course I would!, but I see your point. I'll think it over.
To make things clear, if the tables were turned, and I were the one with the failing kidney, I would turn it down.
The difference in the hand in the machine and the transplanted organ is this--the transplanted organ is understood as a possession that my be transferred from one owner to another. The loss of a hand in saving another's life is collateral damage.
I am not sure that organ transplantation is being understood here.
You can live with one kidney and half a liver that grows back in 3 weeks. You cannot live without a heart.
Heart and lung transplants (as well as others) are performed on recently dead bodies who are organ donors.
Your idea of the resurrection is reminiscent of the Native American idea that if one is not complete at death they are doomed to walk on their hands for eternity to turn that frown upside down, so to speak.
So, if our bodies are part of us, and belong with our souls, then the individual parts of our bodies belong with our souls and with the other parts of our bodies. To separate any part of a man is highly unnatural.
Let's suppose you lost an arm in a machine. Did you lose a portion of your soul?
Tyler, I believe your premise is faulty and you are making extraordinary conclusions from a bad premise. Yes, the body and soul are joined together, but to conclude from this premise that one cannot donate an organ is to materialize the soul.
The soul is united to the body as long as it is alive. The parts of the body receive their vitality from the life source. The soul is not united to parts of the body that are a) dead or b) receive their vitality from another life source.
A) An amputated leg does not have a soul. The soul remains united to the living body of the individual. When the individual dies, the soul is separated from that body.
B) The sperm is part of the male body and carries his DNA. The egg is part of the female body and carries her DNA. When these two come together, they are no longer part of their original source but part of a new body. Likewise, an organ that receives its vitality from a new/different life source is no longer part of the body of its first source.
The resurrected body is changed-- glorious. Yes, physical, but not identical. We should not make an argument which restrains God's creative work in the resurrection and we shouldn't speculate how it is that God accomplishes this miraculous work.
timfost said:The resurrected body is changed-- glorious. Yes, physical, but not identical. We should not make an argument which restrains God's creative work in the resurrection and we shouldn't speculate how it is that God accomplishes this miraculous work.
OPC apparently has not dealt with this formally http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=404
PCA presumes its lawfulness reporting on heroic measures in 1988. http://pcahistory.org/pca/2-378.html
Wayne, has the PCA dealt with the ethics of transplants beyond this report?
FRCNA has been struggling with the issue for a number of years and finding it difficult to complete a report on end of life issues including organ donation; but not the act of transplanting rather the timing. http://frcna.org/resources/acts-of-synod
PB has discussed this before on threads. http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/80452-WLC-136-and-Organ-Donation-Transplantation
I don't know any church that has ruled this is sinful (anyone?) and for churches that don't have some guidance yet it seems prudent rather than leaving that all on each minister as the case arises.
If you give all your useable body parts away after death, it's ok.
I understand that is why people donate body organs - so others can live.Choose life, not death. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.
I would like to start with the verse you gave (I Corinthians 6, in which he writes, "the body ... [is] for the Lord," and, "glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.") and ask an important question. Why did God want to own our body? Well, you already answered it with the Scripture you gave. So you could say he bought us with a price and owns us body and soul so that we would be obedient to him by spreading his Gospel and by glorifying him in all we do through the work of sanctification he works within us. That is why he owns our bodies. His ultimate goal for his people is of a heavenly purpose.
Now, should we take good care of the bodies he's given to us? Of course we should. When we don't take good care of our bodies we fall into bad health but more importantly we are sinning. For example, eating too much can cause diabetes, heart problems etc. But the greater offense of overeating is that we are lusting after food which is an offense against God. This impedes us both physically and spiritually to do his work of spreading the Gospel and of glorifying him by demonstrating self-control if they have these diseases as a result of overeating. So we have an earthly reason for taking care of our bodies which aids in the higher and more important heavenly reason for obeying God.
This is why God owns our body. He doesn't own our bodies in order tell us what to do with it so that he return it to us at the last resurrection in the same shape and form we had at birth....that isn't his goal for our bodies. It is true will will have physical bodies when we are resurrected, but they will not be identical to the ones we have now. Christ's resurrected body was a physical body but it certainly was different from the one he was born with. Paul speaks to this in 1Cor 15 (Calvin's commentary on this is worth the read).
God's goal for our bodies isn't to own them for our usage or for "What's best for mankind". Instead, our bodies and souls are owned by God for, "What is the chief end of man? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever." We begin that process here on earth by spreading His Gospel and by being sanctified so that we might glorify him here on earth in all that we do...... after death we will glorify him perfectly. That is why God owns our bodies.
If you lose a body part, it's ok. If you give a body part away while you're still alive, it's ok as long as it doesn't cause your death. If you give all your useable body parts away after death, it's ok. You're getting a new body which will never decay with which you will be able to glorify him perfectly forever....our chief end.
Tyler, you are using the circular argument that i just gave as an example. Basically what you are saying is:
the body ... [is] for the Lord.
Thus, you may not donate organs bc the body ... [is] for the Lord.
If we used this type of reasoning we could make up all types of commandments that are not from God and say they are from God bc the body ... [is] for the Lord.
You have to show that donating organs breaks one of his Commandments which we are not allowed to break bc he declared we have to obey that Commandment bc the body ... [is] for the Lord for his glory otherwise you pay the penalty of hell.
Now, if you can find which law we would be breaking by donating organs, I'll be the first to admit my error and be on your side in this matter. Otherwise, this idea is just another man mad law I personally will not feel obligated to follow.
As for our new bodies read 1 Cor 15 and Calvin's commentary. Our new bodies will be free from ever dying again. Jesus is not sitting in heaven eating every day to stay alive. That's certainly new from his body before his death.
As for our new bodies read 1 Cor 15 and Calvin's commentary. Our new bodies will be free from ever dying again. Jesus is not sitting in heaven eating every day to stay alive. That's certainly new from his body before his death.