C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
I know we may have trifled with this a bit in the past, but in terms of a poll - who wears a robe to preach in?
Who wears a Robe while preaching?
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SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
I would love to wear a robe... but I've been under the impression that wearing a robe is a sign of ordination. Am I off base here? If so, then I'd love to get one!
Ben
Ben
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
For what it's worth, I do. It's not a hill on which I would die, but our congregation has come to appreciate the emphasis on "office" that the Genevan robe signifies. The GR was the tradition of the Reformed and Presbyterian churches until quite recently. It has been the victim of the Modern egalitarian spirit and an unfortunate association with Anglo-Catholicisim -- though the AC's never wear the GR; they always wear sacerdotal (priestly) ecclesiastical garb (surplice, stole etc).
Guests to the congregation have also responded well.
They seem to appreciate a serious, reverently joyful service. The younger folk are the most receptive.
It depends too upon motive. We adopted it in order to emphasize the Word and Sacrament ministry rather than our persons. If a minister adopted it to draw attention to his person or toward a sub-Reformed view of ministry then it could have the opposite effect.
rsc
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
Ben,
Most Reformed/Presbyterian churches distinguish between "exhorting" done by licentiates and "preaching" done by ministers. The latter is the ecclesiastically sanctioned, official proclamation of the Law and the Gospel. The former is essentially a function of the laity. Unfortunately, a licentiate is in an ecclesiastical limbo, not ordained to office but functions (in the pulpit) as a preacher. Fortunately, it does not last too long.
If this distinction holds, then it would not be appropriate for an unordained man (not holding ministerial office) to wear the robe of that office. It's a little like a law clerk wearing the judge's robe or the police cadet actually carrying a gun. You might do it, but don't get caught!
rsc
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Would it get kinda hot in one of those things? I thought the Puritans got rid of those things anyway? When did American Presbyterians start using them?
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Dr. Robert Schueller wears one.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Lloyd-Jones wore one. I don't know that the Puritans got rid of them. You know, it is called a Geneva gown after all. I'm thinking it was a trend in the 19th and even 20th centuries. Maybe in the 19th century on the frontier, the rise of revivalism, etc. But I'm guessing there wasn't widespread abandonment of it until the 20th century.
I wouldn't be opposed to pastors wearing gowns and think I generally agree with Dr. Clark's rationale.
I wouldn't be opposed to pastors wearing gowns and think I generally agree with Dr. Clark's rationale.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Here are a couple of links I turned up on the "Geneva gown"
http://www.glaird.com/vestment.htm
This gown or robe is really derived from academic gowns.
http://www.answers.com/topic/geneva-gown
http://www.glaird.com/vestment.htm
This gown or robe is really derived from academic gowns.
http://www.answers.com/topic/geneva-gown
Scott
Puritan Board Graduate
"Most Reformed/Presbyterian churches distinguish between "exhorting" done by licentiates and "preaching" done by ministers. The latter is the ecclesiastically sanctioned, official proclamation of the Law and the Gospel. The former is essentially a function of the laity."
I would like to learn more about this. Can you recommend any articles or books that address this? I am curious what do you mean by "ecclesiastically sanctioned, official proclamation of the Law and the Gospel?"
Thanks
I would like to learn more about this. Can you recommend any articles or books that address this? I am curious what do you mean by "ecclesiastically sanctioned, official proclamation of the Law and the Gospel?"
Thanks
My pastor does. He has a sermon or two on ecclesiastical attire. I'll hunt for the links on our website.
Horton Davies has an interesting section in The Worship of the English Puritans on this subject. I tried to reproduce it last night, but lost everything I typed, so i gave up. I will try again tonight, Lord willing.
I can see some arguments why the Puritans rejected the use of vestments as they looked to find scriptural warrant for this in the scriptures. I'm not sure that they were sound arguments though.
I can see some arguments why the Puritans rejected the use of vestments as they looked to find scriptural warrant for this in the scriptures. I'm not sure that they were sound arguments though.
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
No, the puritans wore them, usually with the "tab" collar. The "vestiarian" controversy concerned the surplice, tippet, stole etc.
All of the confessional (Congregational, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Reformed) ministers wore robes until after the 2nd Great Awakening. Many wore them until until WWII.
The idea of a minister mounting a pulpit (also disappearing - most churches have, if anything, a lectern not a pulpit) or standing behind a Plexiglas lectern in a pullover sweater with a clip-on mic is a novelty.
It's not a question of when Presbyterians started wearing them, but when and why they stopped. Recently, some Presbyterian and Reformed ministers have begun to try to recover a sense of office and dignity in worship.
rsc
[Edited on 10-18-2005 by R. Scott Clark]
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Horton Davies has an interesting section in The Worship of the English Puritans on this subject. I tried to reproduce it last night, but lost everything I typed, so i gave up. I will try again tonight, Lord willing.
I can see some arguments why the Puritans rejected the use of vestments as they looked to find scriptural warrant for this in the scriptures. I'm not sure that they were sound arguments though.
Every minister who rejected vestments (e.g., surplice, tippet, stole) rejected them as priestcraft and did so whilst wearing the Genevan Robe.
I'm sure we've had this discussion before, haven't we?
rsc
R. Scott Clark
Puritan Board Senior
Scott,
It is a distinction I learned from the German Reformed (RCUS) who first taught me the Reformed faith. It is a distinction (I think) preserved in most church orders/books of discipline. I'm reasonably confident that the PCA observes this distinction and I know the URC, OPC, and most other NAPARC groups do as well.
The definition of preaching is mine, though derived from folk such as Perkins (The Art of Prophesying) and others.
Ecclesiastical sanction refers to a public, orderly, act by officers of the church acting in that office to recognize the calling, gifts etc of a man to the office of minister. All believers hold the "general office" of believer, but we distinguish between that and the special offices of minister and elder.
The practice of "licensing" goes back at least to the middle ages, though that was more a matter of where a man was allowed to minister rather than distinguishing between the licentiate and the minister.
I think American Presbyterians have made this distinction since colonial times and I guess it goes back to the Reformation.
rsc
ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
Are we to vote for our pastor or only if we are pastors?
My pastor wears a robe for the second service, which is the "traditional" format, but he does not during the first service, which is the "contemporary" format.
The "associate" pastor does not wear any robe when he preaches, but he does wear the black suit with the white dog collar on the days that he preaches.
My pastor wears a robe for the second service, which is the "traditional" format, but he does not during the first service, which is the "contemporary" format.
The "associate" pastor does not wear any robe when he preaches, but he does wear the black suit with the white dog collar on the days that he preaches.
I've been searching my old emails back to 1995 looking for specific information. I don't remember writing 99% of them. Some of them were just too good to be me; others... well... were more what I'd expect.
jaybird0827
PuritanBoard Honor Roll
Since you're an Army Chaplain, I think you're the one who's most qualified to know when you're off base.
dannyhyde
Puritan Board Sophomore
For what it's worth, here is the text of a little explanation I wrote for my parish and visitors after Dr. Clark and I decided to wear the Genevan Robe and after we explained this to our people. It's part of a larger booklet we give out to visitors entitled, "What to Expect When You Worship With Us":
WHY DOES THE PASTOR WEAR A "œROBE?"
As I opened this booklet saying, many of us in this congregation know by experience that to enter the service of a Reformed church from the plethora of non-denominational churches is a culture shock. There is no praise band but an organ, piano, and maybe a simple guitar or two. There is no overhead projected music but the people sing from hymnals or songs printed in a service booklet. The service is not a time of "œhanging out with Jesus," but is a formal meeting with God.
There is another difference that I would like address here. The pastor does not wear a Hawaiian shirt or any other laid back attire, but he wears a robe while he leads and preaches. Again, to many this looks "œCatholic." For others, this looks like the pastors in many liberal churches, which do not take the Bible seriously, such as the Crystal Cathedral, which you have seen on Sunday morning television.
Because there is this perception, what follows is a basic explanation for why our pastor, like many other Reformed pastors, wears a preaching/pulpit robe, also called "œThe Genevan Gown."
The Biblical Teaching on Office
The first reason for this practice is the biblical teaching on office in the Church. The Bible teaches the concept that God has called pastors/ministers to a special office, that is, and official function in the life of God´s people. One need only read the New Testament epistles to see this. Because God places men in specific offices of duty, the people of God are to honor, respect, and submit to that office. For example, Hebrews 13:17 says,
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
For some, this might be a challenge if the one in office is a friend, peer, family member, or even one who is younger. Nevertheless, Paul exhorts Timothy, a young pastor, saying, "œLet no one despise you for your youth"(1) precisely because in this very same chapter Paul calls Timothy a "œgood servant of Christ Jesus," that is, a minister of Christ.(2)
Wearing a robe, then, emphasizes the office of the minister and de-emphasizes the personality of the man in the pulpit. It is a way of turning the parishioners´ attention away from the person and his personality and putting it where it belongs, on the office of the minister who is the spokesman for the Lord.
In the Bible, we see that the clothing and calling of those in special offices are often connected. In other words, a person´s calling or office is visually represented by the clothing he wears.(3) The purpose of the robe is to cover the man and accent his God-ordained office or calling before the people of God.
In the Bible, ministers of the Lord have a representative role during the public assembly. When he leads the congregation in prayer before God, he represents Christ leading the church in prayer before the Father. When he reads and preaches the Word, he represents Christ, the Husband, speaking to his holy bride. The robe does not set him above the congregation, but sets him apart for his office as pastor on the Lord´s Day.
This may seem strange, especially if you are used to "œgetting to know the man" in the pulpit. There is a time and a place for the minister to get to know his people casually, socially, and intimately, but the time for this is not in the pulpit. In the pulpit, the minister is your minister, who serves the Lord by feeding your soul with spiritual food.
(1) 1 Timothy 4:12; (2) 1 Timothy 4:6; (3) Genesis 9:20-27; 39:1-13; 37:3-11, 23; 41:1-44; many references in Exodus and Leviticus; 1 Samuel 2:19; 15:27; 18:4; 24:4, 5, 11, 14; Ezra 9:3-5; Esther 8:15; Isaiah 22:21; Jonah 3:6; Matthew 22:11ff.; 27:31; Mark 16:5; Luke 15:22; Revelation 1:13; 4:4; 6:11; 19:13, 16
The Practice of Church History
Another reason for the pastor wearing a robe is that from the Reformation until very recently, Protestant pastors wore robes of office when serving. The robe, then, emphasizes that we are a part of the historic Christian Church.
Some think the preaching robe is too Roman Catholic, though. The fact is, though, that preaching robes did not originate with the Roman Catholic Church, but were worn in the ancient Church and later by the Protestant Reformers. As well, there is a huge difference between a Protestant minister wearing a preaching robe and the priestly garments of Rome. As a Reformed Church, our ministers are preachers and pastors, not priests. The Reformers stopped using the vestments of the priesthood for this reason. In its place, they wore plain, simple, and unadorned black robes while preaching, instead of the elaborate, complex, and overly symbolic garments of the priests.
Here is how Martin Bucer, on behalf of all the Protestant ministers of the city of Strasbourg, explained the rationale for this change in 1524:
"¦in our churches we have completely done away with and abolished everything which has no basis in the Scriptures and which has been added to the Lord´s Supper without any justification in the Scriptures and therefore has been an insult and a slander of Christ and of the divine mercies"¦the priest and servant of the congregation does not wear a special vestment, only what we call the choir gown, and none of the sacrificial vestments such as alb, stole, chasuble, etc.(1)
In this same treatise, Bucer devoted an entire chapter to the "œReason Why the Papist [Roman Catholic] Vestments Have Been Abolished." In this chapter, he explained that the example of the high priests in the Old Testaments with all their vestments does not apply, as Rome said of their priesthood. Instead, Bucer said,
Christ is our High Priest in the line of Aaron"¦His priestly garments, and those of all of us who are united with Him in true faith and therefore are also priests, are not made with hands, but spiritual clothing such as truth, justice and righteousness and all things which are in Christ.(2)
(1) Grund und Ursach, I.2; (1) Grund und Ursach, V.68
The Contemporary Church
The third basic reason why the minister of the Word wears a robe while preaching and leading in worship, is that the pastor is not a businessman of an upper middle class corporation, but a minister of Jesus Christ. Even churches in which the pastor does not wear a robe, there is an expectation that the he dress conservatively, with a dark suit, white starched shirt, and conservative necktie. In our culture this is the weekday uniform of a lawyer and businessman. This "œuniform" often communicates precisely the wrong message to the church and community in which we minister. We do not derive our authority from the symbols of our culture, but from Christ and his Word.
The culture also pulls us to the other extreme of informality. After wearing business suits and office attire all week, we all too often want to come to church and "œlet it loose." Instead, the robe emphasizes that we do not identify ourselves to the spirit of the age. It focuses the congregation on the work of Christ and apostolic doctrine "“ which transcend all cultures. For those who cannot afford a suit or even a nice Sunday outfit the robe is neutral and says, "œWe are Christians here, not upper-middle class Americans."
Therefore, in wearing a robe, we are bringing our practices in line with what the Bible implies, what the historic Church has practiced, and what Protestants have done for 500 years. We are also taking a stance against the American church´s tendency to turn the pastor into an executive or an informal friend.
WHY DOES THE PASTOR WEAR A "œROBE?"
As I opened this booklet saying, many of us in this congregation know by experience that to enter the service of a Reformed church from the plethora of non-denominational churches is a culture shock. There is no praise band but an organ, piano, and maybe a simple guitar or two. There is no overhead projected music but the people sing from hymnals or songs printed in a service booklet. The service is not a time of "œhanging out with Jesus," but is a formal meeting with God.
There is another difference that I would like address here. The pastor does not wear a Hawaiian shirt or any other laid back attire, but he wears a robe while he leads and preaches. Again, to many this looks "œCatholic." For others, this looks like the pastors in many liberal churches, which do not take the Bible seriously, such as the Crystal Cathedral, which you have seen on Sunday morning television.
Because there is this perception, what follows is a basic explanation for why our pastor, like many other Reformed pastors, wears a preaching/pulpit robe, also called "œThe Genevan Gown."
The Biblical Teaching on Office
The first reason for this practice is the biblical teaching on office in the Church. The Bible teaches the concept that God has called pastors/ministers to a special office, that is, and official function in the life of God´s people. One need only read the New Testament epistles to see this. Because God places men in specific offices of duty, the people of God are to honor, respect, and submit to that office. For example, Hebrews 13:17 says,
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
For some, this might be a challenge if the one in office is a friend, peer, family member, or even one who is younger. Nevertheless, Paul exhorts Timothy, a young pastor, saying, "œLet no one despise you for your youth"(1) precisely because in this very same chapter Paul calls Timothy a "œgood servant of Christ Jesus," that is, a minister of Christ.(2)
Wearing a robe, then, emphasizes the office of the minister and de-emphasizes the personality of the man in the pulpit. It is a way of turning the parishioners´ attention away from the person and his personality and putting it where it belongs, on the office of the minister who is the spokesman for the Lord.
In the Bible, we see that the clothing and calling of those in special offices are often connected. In other words, a person´s calling or office is visually represented by the clothing he wears.(3) The purpose of the robe is to cover the man and accent his God-ordained office or calling before the people of God.
In the Bible, ministers of the Lord have a representative role during the public assembly. When he leads the congregation in prayer before God, he represents Christ leading the church in prayer before the Father. When he reads and preaches the Word, he represents Christ, the Husband, speaking to his holy bride. The robe does not set him above the congregation, but sets him apart for his office as pastor on the Lord´s Day.
This may seem strange, especially if you are used to "œgetting to know the man" in the pulpit. There is a time and a place for the minister to get to know his people casually, socially, and intimately, but the time for this is not in the pulpit. In the pulpit, the minister is your minister, who serves the Lord by feeding your soul with spiritual food.
(1) 1 Timothy 4:12; (2) 1 Timothy 4:6; (3) Genesis 9:20-27; 39:1-13; 37:3-11, 23; 41:1-44; many references in Exodus and Leviticus; 1 Samuel 2:19; 15:27; 18:4; 24:4, 5, 11, 14; Ezra 9:3-5; Esther 8:15; Isaiah 22:21; Jonah 3:6; Matthew 22:11ff.; 27:31; Mark 16:5; Luke 15:22; Revelation 1:13; 4:4; 6:11; 19:13, 16
The Practice of Church History
Another reason for the pastor wearing a robe is that from the Reformation until very recently, Protestant pastors wore robes of office when serving. The robe, then, emphasizes that we are a part of the historic Christian Church.
Some think the preaching robe is too Roman Catholic, though. The fact is, though, that preaching robes did not originate with the Roman Catholic Church, but were worn in the ancient Church and later by the Protestant Reformers. As well, there is a huge difference between a Protestant minister wearing a preaching robe and the priestly garments of Rome. As a Reformed Church, our ministers are preachers and pastors, not priests. The Reformers stopped using the vestments of the priesthood for this reason. In its place, they wore plain, simple, and unadorned black robes while preaching, instead of the elaborate, complex, and overly symbolic garments of the priests.
Here is how Martin Bucer, on behalf of all the Protestant ministers of the city of Strasbourg, explained the rationale for this change in 1524:
"¦in our churches we have completely done away with and abolished everything which has no basis in the Scriptures and which has been added to the Lord´s Supper without any justification in the Scriptures and therefore has been an insult and a slander of Christ and of the divine mercies"¦the priest and servant of the congregation does not wear a special vestment, only what we call the choir gown, and none of the sacrificial vestments such as alb, stole, chasuble, etc.(1)
In this same treatise, Bucer devoted an entire chapter to the "œReason Why the Papist [Roman Catholic] Vestments Have Been Abolished." In this chapter, he explained that the example of the high priests in the Old Testaments with all their vestments does not apply, as Rome said of their priesthood. Instead, Bucer said,
Christ is our High Priest in the line of Aaron"¦His priestly garments, and those of all of us who are united with Him in true faith and therefore are also priests, are not made with hands, but spiritual clothing such as truth, justice and righteousness and all things which are in Christ.(2)
(1) Grund und Ursach, I.2; (1) Grund und Ursach, V.68
The Contemporary Church
The third basic reason why the minister of the Word wears a robe while preaching and leading in worship, is that the pastor is not a businessman of an upper middle class corporation, but a minister of Jesus Christ. Even churches in which the pastor does not wear a robe, there is an expectation that the he dress conservatively, with a dark suit, white starched shirt, and conservative necktie. In our culture this is the weekday uniform of a lawyer and businessman. This "œuniform" often communicates precisely the wrong message to the church and community in which we minister. We do not derive our authority from the symbols of our culture, but from Christ and his Word.
The culture also pulls us to the other extreme of informality. After wearing business suits and office attire all week, we all too often want to come to church and "œlet it loose." Instead, the robe emphasizes that we do not identify ourselves to the spirit of the age. It focuses the congregation on the work of Christ and apostolic doctrine "“ which transcend all cultures. For those who cannot afford a suit or even a nice Sunday outfit the robe is neutral and says, "œWe are Christians here, not upper-middle class Americans."
Therefore, in wearing a robe, we are bringing our practices in line with what the Bible implies, what the historic Church has practiced, and what Protestants have done for 500 years. We are also taking a stance against the American church´s tendency to turn the pastor into an executive or an informal friend.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Actually, in the OPC, licentiates are licensed to "preach" - that's the term that's used.
As for the difference between "exhorting" and "preaching" - that's just the 3-office guys protecting what they think is their "turf" (heh, heh).
Actually pastoral wear is quite expensive. A clerical shirt for example will cost $70US.
Which leads me to ask, why folk are reviving the Genevan gown and not also going back to the clerical collar, whereby they might identify themselves as ministers at all times, and not simply while they are preaching?
Which leads me to ask, why folk are reviving the Genevan gown and not also going back to the clerical collar, whereby they might identify themselves as ministers at all times, and not simply while they are preaching?
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