Why are so many Christians against Christian Nationalism?

Brother, I know I do my fair share of stirring. But I showed great kindness to one of your countrymen when he was teased by a naughty New Zealander a few years ago. I was at a conference and an Australian man and his teenage son came to NZ to the conference (from the Snowy Mountains NSW). One naughty Kiwi saw this Australian teenager and thought he would tease him. He told him that we have a burger at NZ MacDonalds called a Kiwi burger. This is true. He told this Australian that it is called a Kiwi burger because we kill our native bird, the Kiwi, and put it in a burger!!!! This poor teenager came to me with a worried look on his face wondering if this was true. I showed great kindness to my new Australian friend, purchased a Kiwi burger for him to enjoy. He saw that the Kiwi burger consists of good Ole NZ tucker

I told my Aussie friend that next time I am in Australia he owes me an Aussie Burger.

That was kind of you, Stephen. There's no doubting the brotherliness of the two nations when it matters.

I've had a burger with a kangaroo patty, but you won't see it for sale at Maccas. Up in Queensland they have croc burgers.

If you look at the cricket test record it looks like Aussies have been enjoying Kiwi burgers for a while. :)
 
This is how we could nicely tie this together. Why not shift the US Canadian border down to Mexico. This would give Canada 50 extra Provinces and King Charles III would rein over the whole of North America. :stirpot:

Americans who are ignorant about other countries would be quickly educated about King Charles III other realms. Better still, Americans would once again repeat the Biblical phrase "God save the King" :stirpot:

LOL! Remember, your Dutch guys in the RCNZ down in New Zealand switched loyalty from one crown (the Dutch monarchy) to a bigger one (the British Empire). I happen to think "Cromwell the Regicide" is a better way to be Reformed.

And now I will duck... :rolleyes:
 
I've had a burger with a kangaroo patty, but you won't see it for sale at Maccas.
In my youth I used to enjoy 'Skippy the Bush Kangaroo'. I hope you were not eating one of Skippy's descendants :)
If you look at the cricket test record it looks like Aussies have been enjoying Kiwi burgers for a while. :)
What's that Skip. Are you saying that the performance of the NZ cricket team has "roo"m for improvement :)
That was kind of you, Stephen. There's no doubting the brotherliness of the two nations when it matters
Amen. I have been thinking of your Country recently as you remember 50 years since Cyclone Tracy afflicted terrible destruction on Darwin. Some 35 years ago I watched a documentary on Cyclone Tracy and the terrible suffering it afflicted on the people of Darwin. 30,000 people have to be evacuated to other Australian States, and about 80% of Darwin's houses were destroyed. It deeply moved me when I watched the documentary all those years ago.

As you know our two nations are very godless and secular but I trust the memory of Cyclone Tracy will cause many to consider the seriousness of eternity as solemnly given in Psalm 90.
So teach us to number our days,
That we may gain a heart of wisdom.
 
Remember, your Dutch guys in the RCNZ down in New Zealand switched loyalty from one crown (the Dutch monarchy) to a bigger one (the British Empire).
I am a Scotsman, a rare breed in the RCNZ. :)
I happen to think "Cromwell the Regicide" is a better way to be Reformed.
My bloodline comes from a strong Covenanting area in Scotland. The Covenanters would prefer a Confessional Presbyterian King to Cromwell :)

I admit I see an irony here. When Charles III became King he swore an oath to uphold the Protestant Reformed religion in Scotland (I.e. the Westminster Standards). I fear he has no intention of upholding them.

I said this when King Charles III made this oath:
Oh that there were a true revival in Scotland and she would return to those subordinate Standards.
 
LOL! Remember, your Dutch guys in the RCNZ down in New Zealand switched loyalty from one crown (the Dutch monarchy) to a bigger one (the British Empire). I happen to think "Cromwell the Regicide" is a better way to be Reformed.

And now I will duck... :rolleyes:
I am a Scotsman, a rare breed in the RCNZ. :)

My bloodline comes from a strong Covenanting area in Scotland. The Covenanters would prefer a Confessional Presbyterian King to Cromwell :)

I admit I see an irony here. When Charles III became King he swore an oath to uphold the Protestant Reformed religion in Scotland (I.e. the Westminster Standards). I fear he has no intention of upholding them.


Yep... I saw the last name of "Smith," and before I posted, changed "you Dutch guys in the RCNZ" to "your Dutch guys." I do know the RCNZ history of being largely founded by Dutch Reformed immigrants, but even in the earliest days, had some local New Zealanders who were frustrated with the liberalism of the Presbyterians, and also "imported" lots of Orthodox Presbyterian pastors, some of whom later became quite important names in the OPC. I've run into Dutch Reformed people with American names due to Anglicization or marriage -- names like "Smit" have been known to become "Smith," or sometimes an American decides a tall Dutch girl looks cute -- and I'm guessing the same happens in New Zealand as well. Considering that I have an interracial marriage to a Korean, who am I to say that's a problem?

Now as for a monarchy in England, Scotland, and what remains of the British domains in places like Australia and New Zealand -- well, the Covenanters were not exactly good judges of the character of King Charles II. I do understand that in an era where Scotland and England were united in personal union and were still separate countries, the regicide was horrifying to many Scotsmen, and if King Charles II had actually meant what he said in his oath to protect the Reformed faith in Scotland, it's entirely possible that Cromwell might have tolerated a truly converted Scottish king. Most countries in Europe, including most Reformed countries, were monarchies with a wide variety of levels of royal authority, and Cromwell's protectorate was a true outlier, so the system of government wasn't the primary issue. Oliver Cromwell seems to have believed that the whole House of Stuart was a modern version of the royal house of the Northern Kingdom of Israel -- apostates from God who used religion for their own ends and had a twisted form of it rather than being hypocrites who affirmed the true faith.

In today's world where with a few exceptions (Saudi Arabia, etc.) most monarchs are mere figureheads, I trust you will understand my American dislike for royal rule that is real as opposed to a figurehead. Selecting a purely ceremonial head of state based on parentage and primogeniture makes even less sense to me, but it seems to work for the Dutch, the Danes, the Norwegians and others, so if they like it, it doesn't bother me. I don't see a lot of point to having a ceremonial head of state thousands of miles away, but if the Aussies and Kiwis want to claim King Charles III, feel free. Your call -- and in the modern world, it's up to the voters no matter what the theory may say.
 
but if the Aussies and Kiwis want to claim King Charles III, feel free. Your call -- and in the modern world, it's up to the voters no matter what the theory may say.

Unlike the Stuarts the monarchs who rule us are bound by a Protestant constitution and their powers are limited to such a degree that you barely notice they are there except in a ceremonial capacity. But while it is a Protestant constitution I will claim him as my king for good or ill. It's not really a call to make. It just is. And like the rest of life you take the good with the bad thankful to Providence for the daily benefits that He loads upon us.
 
Does s6 of the constitution mean I am a closet Australian? :)


6. Definitions
The Commonwealth shall mean the Commonwealth of Australia as established under this Act.

The States shall mean such of the colonies of New South Wales, New Zealand, Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria, Western Australia, and South Australia, including the northern territory of South Australia, as for the time being are parts of the Commonwealth, and such colonies or territories as may be admitted into or established by the Commonwealth as States; and each of such parts of the Commonwealth shall be called a State.
 
but even in the earliest days, had some local New Zealanders who were frustrated with the liberalism of the Presbyterians
The problem was the Presbyterian Declatory Act in the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand which was written about 1901. This enabled NZ Presbyterian ministers to have a 'relaxed' subscription to the Westminster Standards. This was theologically disastrous and paved the way for Lloyd Geering to spout his heretical statements in the 1960's.

This gave the RCNZ a good reason to exist. As you may be aware the RCNZ subscribes to both the WCF and the 3FU to give both Presbyterians and Reformed a spiritual home.
also "imported" lots of Orthodox Presbyterian pastors, some of whom later became quite important names in the OPC
Lots? The ones I am aware of are G.I. Williamson and Jack Sawyer. Dr. Cornelis Venema (former President of MARS) enjoys a great friendship with the RCNZ. I understand his father was a former minister here.
the Covenanters were not exactly good judges of the character of King Charles II.
That is why I specified a confessional Presbyterian King
most monarchs are mere figureheads
I had an interesting discussion with a RCNZ member a few years ago. He made a strong stand against the evil Anti smacking law that was passed by our Parliament in 2007. I argued we could appeal to her majesty Queen Elizabeth II on the basis of her Corination Oath where she promised to uphold the Protestant Reformed religion. The Oath includes NZ. The Queen must not interfere with politics. But her Oath is above politics. NZ has passed evil laws for a number of decades now. She could have warned our Parliament, on the basis of her Corination Oath, that if the NZ Parliament continued to pass godless laws, we will incur the wrath of God on our nation. I believe this was the Queen's prerogative and duty. If she said this and commanded our Governor General not to sign the law, this would cause a Constitutional crisis. In reality she probably would not do this. But I still think that NZ Christians could have reminded her majesty of her Corination Oath.

French Pastor Pierre Courthial has inspired my thinking on this. His book "A New Day of Small Beginnings" is a spiritual and political gem. France has passed many godless laws like NZ and other Western nations. Pierre argues that France is under God's judgment but he has real hope for the future. As an Optimistic Amillennialist I agree :)
 
Just Australasian. Your forbears counted themselves unworthy of the Australian commonwealth. :)
It is interesting that Premier Richard Seddon discouraged joining the Australian Commonwealth back in 1900. Seddon was the Member of Parliament for Westland, my home region (the West Coast of the South Island).

One of the concerns was that Maori may have been disadvantaged by this union. The Treaty of Waitangi was signed by the British Crown and Maori. If NZ joined the Commonwealth of Australia, would this Treaty be nullified? It remains an interesting Constitutional question.
 
One of the concerns was that Maori may have been disadvantaged by this union. The Treaty of Waitangi was signed by the British Crown and Maori. If NZ joined the Commonwealth of Australia, would this Treaty be nullified? It remains an interesting Constitutional question.

You have piqued my interest. I would have thought it was financial. Now I will have to look into it.
 
I don't see a lot of point to having a ceremonial head of state thousands of miles away, but if the Aussies and Kiwis want to claim King Charles III, feel free. Your call -- and in the modern world, it's up to the voters no matter what the theory may say.
Unlike the Stuarts the monarchs who rule us are bound by a Protestant constitution and their powers are limited to such a degree that you barely notice they are there except in a ceremonial capacity. But while it is a Protestant constitution I will claim him as my king for good or ill. It's not really a call to make. It just is. And like the rest of life you take the good with the bad thankful to Providence for the daily benefits that He loads upon us.

Fair point -- you are obligated by the Word of God to pray for kings and all that are in authority, as I am obligated to pray for President Biden for the next few weeks until his term of office ends -- but some qualifications apply.

As you know, many and perhaps most of the British colonies have long ago cut their ties with the Monarchy and more may do so in the future. We no longer live in a world where divine right of kings applies and in which John Calvin was quite concerned, in his correspondence with John Knox, not to appear (at least in writing) to give support to Knox's views that a crowned head of state could be removed by lesser magistrates for gross idolatry, apostasy, or other extreme sins. In the context of the 1500s and 1600s, Knox's views were not just radical but revolutionary, and would have been interpreted by rulers all over Europe as "proof" that Calvinists were closet Anabaptists of the Munster stripe, seeking to overthrow all authority and order, and should therefore be regarded as not only ecclesiastical heretics but political traitors.

Now things would be different if you were a Christian living under an absolute monarchy, and they'd probably be different if you were a Christian living someplace like Thailand with a monarch who is mostly ceremonial but where the laws on "lese-majesty" (defamation of the sovereign in his person or his office) are not mere formalities but are taken quite seriously and actually enforced.

But you are not. Furthermore, you are thousands of miles away from England and Scotland and have your own governing body separate from the British Parliament to conduct your own affairs.

Perhaps the closest Reformation-era parallel I can think of would be some of the semi-independent city-states near the borders of medieval Switzerland whose city councils had an ancient right to select a new sovereign ruler upon the death of their previous sovereign, and usually preferred to select a sovereign far away who would have little actual say in the day-to-day affairs of the city-state. Some of those city-states eventually ended up become Swiss cantons.

We both concur that the political problems of Australia and New Zealand are far worse than the faith of your crowned head of state, or lack thereof. There really isn't much point in asking your members of parliament to introduce legislation to amend your relationship with the monarchy. It's a ceremonial role and little else.

But while you as an individual subject of the crown don't have any more ability to say "King Charles is not my monarch" than I have the ability to say "Biden is not my president" (and yes, I did choose that example deliberately because some American conservatives **DO** say precisely that, and are violating Scripture as well as facts when they say such things), you as Australians or New Zealanders do, not individually but corporately, have the legal right to break ties with the Crown, as many other British colonies have done.

So I should have been clearer in what I said. No, you (individually speaking), as Matt Winzer, do not have the call to make on whether King Charles is or is not your monarch. As you correctly say, "It just is."

But you (speaking as a plural), do have the right acting corporately through your elected representatives to do so.

That's what I meant to say when, speaking more casually and flippantly that I should have done, I wrote this: "...if the Aussies and Kiwis want to claim King Charles III, feel free. Your call -- and in the modern world, it's up to the voters no matter what the theory may say."

This is mostly theory, of course. Removing the monarchy and becoming a republic would not help either of your two "down under" nations or their religious problems. On the contrary, it is my understanding that "republicanism" in Britian is associated with left-wing politics and I would guess the same applies "down under."
 
John Calvin was quite concerned, in his correspondence with John Knox, not to appear (at least in writing) to give support to Knox's views that a crowned head of state could be removed by lesser magistrates for gross idolatry, apostasy, or other extreme sins.
What correspondence are you referring to? Didn't Knox and others get that idea from Calvin in the first place?

"But whatever may be thought of the acts of the men themselves, the Lord by their means equally executed his own work, when he broke the bloody sceptres of insolent kings, and overthrew their intolerable dominations. Let princes hear and be afraid.... For when [lesser] popular magistrates have been appointed to curb the tyranny of kings (as the Ephori, who were opposed to kings among the Spartans, or Tribunes of the people to consuls among the Romans, or Demarchs to the senate among the Athenians; and perhaps there is something similar to this in the power exercised in each kingdom by the three orders, when they hold their primary diets). So far am I from forbidding these officially to check the undue license of kings, that if they connive at kings when they tyrannise and insult over the humbler of the people, I affirm that their dissimulation is not free from nefarious perfidy, because they fraudulently betray the liberty of the people, while knowing that, by the ordinance of God, they are its appointed guardians." (Institutes IV.20.31, emphasis added)
 
What correspondence are you referring to? Didn't Knox and others get that idea from Calvin in the first place?

"But whatever may be thought of the acts of the men themselves, the Lord by their means equally executed his own work, when he broke the bloody sceptres of insolent kings, and overthrew their intolerable dominations. Let princes hear and be afraid.... For when [lesser] popular magistrates have been appointed to curb the tyranny of kings (as the Ephori, who were opposed to kings among the Spartans, or Tribunes of the people to consuls among the Romans, or Demarchs to the senate among the Athenians; and perhaps there is something similar to this in the power exercised in each kingdom by the three orders, when they hold their primary diets). So far am I from forbidding these officially to check the undue license of kings, that if they connive at kings when they tyrannise and insult over the humbler of the people, I affirm that their dissimulation is not free from nefarious perfidy, because they fraudulently betray the liberty of the people, while knowing that, by the ordinance of God, they are its appointed guardians." (Institutes IV.20.31, emphasis added)

I don't have time to get into the details now, but Knox was more radical on revolt against civil magistrates than Calvin. I thought that was common knowledge and I've never before heard of anyone disagreeing on that point.

There was grave concern on the part of the first and second generation of the leaders of the Reformation that they not be perceived as advocating armed rebellion against civil authority. Knox was the single important early exception to that.

Of course, later on with widespread warfare by Catholics against Protestants, both Lutheran and Reformed leaders took up arms in self-defense. Defending oneself is, at least in principle, a different issue than initiating a rebellion against a ruler believed to be an apostate or idolater. However, once the wars started somewhere else, regardless of who started the wars, justifying armed rebellion apart from an attack becomes a lot easier.
 
I don't have time to get into the details now
I'm just curious what correspondence you are referring to (please indulge my curiosity - Calvin's brief discussion of the civil - and lesser - magistrate seemingly tacked on to the end of the Institutes and the Calvinistic resistance theory that developed was a major focus of my thesis in my university days and I have not revisited it much since - just wondering if more has come to light since then as my main source is the relatively old 1980 Banner of Truth Letters of John Calvin). I've thought of revisiting the issue in light of Christian nationalism sometimes sounding like Christian militarism.

There are very few surviving letters between the two. One of the few that exists and is sometimes used to show Calvin chiding Knox is Calvin's 1561 letter where the latter writes "...I trust, even should you displease many, that you will moderate your rigor.... you are well aware that certain things should be tolerated even if you do not quite approve of them" but this "[w]ith regard to ceremonies" and not civil government. Calvin later writes" I am deeply afflicted, as you may well believe, that the nobles of your nation are split into factions" but there is nothing said about Knox's views or activities regarding the civil magistrate.

And consider that Knox earlier wrote a "First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women" while in exile in Geneva and in close contact with Calvin, where the latter could have easily quashed the work or even spoken out against it. When later asked about his knowledge of Knox's work, Calvin diplomatically admitted that he had conversed with Knox on the topic, agreeing that "female government... was a deviation from the primitive and established order of nature" but that "nevertheless certain women had sometimes been so gifted that the singular blessing of God was conspicuous in them" and that, in Calvin's judgment "it is not permitted to unsettle governments that have been set up by the peculiar providence of God" (Calvin to William Cecil, 1559). But Calvin is not here saying that the lesser magistrate cannot help remove a crowned head of state for sin, only that one cannot remove a queen simply for not being a king. The opening of Calvin's letter to Knox that same year states it was "a source of pleasure, not to me only but to all the pious persons to whom I communicated the agreeable tidings, to hear of the very great success which has crowned your labors.... we are astonished at such incredible progress in so brief a space of time...." (Calvin to Knoix7 November 1559)

Knox was more radical on revolt against civil magistrates than Calvin.
Was he? Or was he just an outworking of what Calvin laid out at the end of the Institutes?

Knox was the single important early exception to that.
Someone should tell Zwingli that!
 
This is mostly theory, of course. Removing the monarchy and becoming a republic would not help either of your two "down under" nations or their religious problems. On the contrary, it is my understanding that "republicanism" in Britian is associated with left-wing politics and I would guess the same applies "down under."

The worry with republicanism is that it will leave us without a recognition of Christianity, and remove precedents to fall back on for our civil liberties concerning religion. But yes, it does seem to be a favourite with the left.

I think your allusion to Calvin and Knox might be mistaken. Calvin held the lesser magistrate doctrine. Knox would allow a private citizen to resist.
 
Would be interested in your findings. The Treaty debates are hot button issues here at the moment.

The only thing I can find about Maoris is "The Commonwealth Franchise Act of 1902" which is said to have granted Māori residents in Australia the right to vote. That is here:


On p. 2, point 4, 2nd paragraph, the NZ natives are exempted from the exclusion to vote.

The argument is that this was a consideration to make federation appealing to New Zealanders and that NZers were concerned about the Maoris. It sounds to me like a modern concern but it could have some basis to it.

At any rate Australians were competitors with NZ for UK trade. This must have been the primary concern. I was interested to learn that NZ farmers were in favour of federation.
 
In further news, the Christ is King CN conference has tagged Anglo-Catholic Calvin Robinson as a speaker and another speaker, Eric Conn, is posting pro Francisco Franco material on his FB page as per Andy Webb. This is why we aren't fans of CN.
 
In further news, the Christ is King CN conference has tagged Anglo-Catholic Calvin Robinson as a speaker and another speaker, Eric Conn, is posting pro Francisco Franco material on his FB page as per Andy Webb. This is why we aren't fans of CN.

Yes, but it will become like reconstructionism, where the backlash ends up driving people further away from national and social engagement. That is not good. You have to find a way to keep the concept even while rejecting the manifestations.
 
Yes, but it will become like reconstructionism, where the backlash ends up driving people further away from national and social engagement. That is not good. You have to find a way to keep the concept even while rejecting the manifestations.
I have a couple of friends in the CREC. I've been laboring to show them that CN puts the cart before the horse and that a robust establishmentarianism is much better suited to the task. I know I'm one of the few establishmentarians on the boards, but even if people disagree with it they should be able to recognize its superiority to the task vs. the current iteration of CN. And, yes, I do think this movement will crash and burn and set us back significantly.
 
I have a couple of friends in the CREC. I've been laboring to show them that CN puts the cart before the horse and that a robust establishmentarianism is much better suited to the task. I know I'm one of the few establishmentarians on the boards, but even if people disagree with it they should be able to recognize its superiority to the task vs. the current iteration of CN. And, yes, I do think this movement will crash and burn and set us back significantly.

Yes, our covenanter version of establishmentarianism is superior to the other forms of it. But historical awareness shows that the nations of Christendom expressed establishmentarianism in different ways. It would be somewhat ideological to extract the principle from the national expression, and CN is trying to maintain some hold of the benefits of Christianity to national expression. Dispensing with it altogether is not going to work. You can turn it into an ecclesiastical distinctive, but is that distinctive going to speak to national life? Can we really ignore what Christianity has done for our nations as nations? I don't think so.
 
Yes, our covenanter version of establishmentarianism is superior to the other forms of it. But historical awareness shows that the nations of Christendom expressed establishmentarianism in different ways. It would be somewhat ideological to extract the principle from the national expression, and CN is trying to maintain some hold of the benefits of Christianity to national expression. Dispensing with it altogether is not going to work. You can turn it into an ecclesiastical distinctive, but is that distinctive going to speak to national life? Can we really ignore what Christianity has done for our nations as nations? I don't think so.
I'd argue that CN as currently being expressed here in the States presents an abstract ideal that doesn't take national expression into account. "White European Protestant culture" is what they are looking to impose.

A Westminsterian establishmentarianism allows room for that establishment to take on whatever cultural/national flavor it obtains in (within Biblical reason), since it is a general principle not wedded to specific applications. It can allow for the culture, while curbing cultural excess.
 
A Westminsterian establishmentarianism allows room for that establishment to take on whatever cultural/national flavor it obtains in (within Biblical reason), since it is a general principle not wedded to specific applications. It can allow for the culture, while curbing cultural excess.

Unless it is "White European Protestant culture." Therein lies the problem.
 
Unless it is "White European Protestant culture." Therein lies the problem.
There is certainly truth to this. An intentionally pluralistic society isn't compatible with establishment, I concede. Yet, it isn't compatible with CN in the States, either, though in differing ways. Of course, I'm postmill so my eschatology might play a wee roll in my perspective. ;)
 
Of course, I'm postmill so my eschatology might play a wee roll in my perspective. ;)

Is there anything serious to this remark? I don't see much difference between premil and postmil establishmentarians in history.
 
Is there anything serious to this remark? I don't see much difference between premil and postmil establishmentarians in history.
Yes. I believe that a structural transformation is possible via gospel proclamation that would allow for an establishment to become a reality even in nations whose current makeup is not compatible. That is to say, when the gospel obtains in a nation, it will be suitable and willing to embrace an establishment principle.
 
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