Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
I know why (at least I think I do) the vast majority of PC(USA) churches are going EPC instead of many other options but I'd like to hear the PB's thoughts.
Why the EPC?
- Thread starter Backwoods Presbyterian
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Ordination of Women is permissible but not Homosexuals which those leaving would embrace as well as the Liberty to Worship as they please with Charismatic, Liturgical, and Reformed influences.
A5pointer
Puritan Board Sophomore
I think it is more practical than theological. The EPC has set up procedural process to make it smooth. They have set up for transition of pastor's pensions and other issues. It is ssen as a transition holding of sorts till the church can make a final decision. Don't be so quick to see the negative.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
I also think that the freedom to ordain women elders is the primary factor. In the PCA they could have pseudo-women deacons, but not women elders.
There are some who claim the authority of Scripture, but still see women elders as permissible in the Word.
There are some who claim the authority of Scripture, but still see women elders as permissible in the Word.
Not being so quick to see the negative just being real. I don't think it is an either/or reason. You are asking me not to be negative however you are in essence saying they are making decisions more with their wallets than with their theological moorings.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
There are several reasons.
A primary one is practical, particularly at this point in time as many churches are trying to leave the PCUSA.
The EPC has graciously offered departing churches a very favorable "non-geographic" presbytery they can smoothly transition into. There is provision for a five year transition time where the individual church and the denomination can see if they are a good fit for one another.
There are many solid evangelical churches and evangelical church members in the PCUSA. Over the years, in the fight contending for the basic essentials of the Christian faith, they have almost lost all their Reformed distinctives. When one is contending for whether Jesus is in fact God, or whether tithe tithe money should be sent directly to Communist guerilla armies, doctrines like unconditional election tend to go to the background.
So, while there is some variation, wherever someone is theologically, they will probably find ready acceptance into the EPC as they are.
Many of the other Reformed and Presbyterian denominations have more defined Reformed standards.
I do suspect that as these churches "settle" some will migrate back toward their Reformed roots and end up in many of the NAPARC denominations.
A primary one is practical, particularly at this point in time as many churches are trying to leave the PCUSA.
The EPC has graciously offered departing churches a very favorable "non-geographic" presbytery they can smoothly transition into. There is provision for a five year transition time where the individual church and the denomination can see if they are a good fit for one another.
There are many solid evangelical churches and evangelical church members in the PCUSA. Over the years, in the fight contending for the basic essentials of the Christian faith, they have almost lost all their Reformed distinctives. When one is contending for whether Jesus is in fact God, or whether tithe tithe money should be sent directly to Communist guerilla armies, doctrines like unconditional election tend to go to the background.
So, while there is some variation, wherever someone is theologically, they will probably find ready acceptance into the EPC as they are.
Many of the other Reformed and Presbyterian denominations have more defined Reformed standards.
I do suspect that as these churches "settle" some will migrate back toward their Reformed roots and end up in many of the NAPARC denominations.
Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
I agree with this. I think the true conservatives left long ago, and the ones that are left now aren't conservative enough to go PCA or ARP. I've only visited one EPC church, but I didn't recognize much presbyterian in it. Another one that I know of went independent eventually. It just appears that they aren't firm on a lot of things.
Clay7926
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm gone for a while and look at what I walk in to! My breakdown of it is going to be very simple (thanks to a LONG week in court!).
In my opinion, the EPC offers PC(USA) churches that disagree with a number of problems in the organization a place where they can still hold to the things they feel comfortable with (such as female Elders and Deacons) without fear.
In a sense, it's similar to how most martial artists will learn a variety of styles, and eventually keep what they like and toss out the rest (like Bruce Lee, for example).
One thing I admit I'm surprised by--and this may be lack of information on my part--is that while the EPC has taken steps to create a place for ex-PC(USA) churches, I haven't seen anything similar from the other bodies of Presbyterianism (PCA, OPC, ARP, etc.). Is anyone aware of anything similar to the 'New Wineskins Presbytery' from other groups in the Presbyterian family?
In my opinion, the EPC offers PC(USA) churches that disagree with a number of problems in the organization a place where they can still hold to the things they feel comfortable with (such as female Elders and Deacons) without fear.
In a sense, it's similar to how most martial artists will learn a variety of styles, and eventually keep what they like and toss out the rest (like Bruce Lee, for example).
One thing I admit I'm surprised by--and this may be lack of information on my part--is that while the EPC has taken steps to create a place for ex-PC(USA) churches, I haven't seen anything similar from the other bodies of Presbyterianism (PCA, OPC, ARP, etc.). Is anyone aware of anything similar to the 'New Wineskins Presbytery' from other groups in the Presbyterian family?
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Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
Henry, I don't think PCA, OPC, or ARP would ever compromise on the female elder issue, so I don't see them being able to create a place for these later leaving PCUSA churches. The more conservative churches left earlier and joined the more conservative denominations.
Clay7926
Puritan Board Sophomore
I agree that there's no compromise on the issue of female elders. But I'm not so sure that all of the conservative churches have left the organization. Part of the reason that we see a number of churches leaving now is because, In my humble opinion, some have stayed to try to fight the shift from within. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more conservative churches in the PC(USA) that have this same mindset, and I guess I'm curious as to why we don't see the Big 3 (PCA, OPC, and ARP) haven't done anything similar to 'New Wineskins.'
Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
I admit to not knowing much about New Wineskins, but from what I can gather, they are still more liberal than PCA, OPC, and ARP. The reading list concerns me a little:
:: New Wineskins :: Association of Churches
And the interim executive director is a woman and there are several women on the leadership team.
:: New Wineskins :: Association of Churches
And the interim executive director is a woman and there are several women on the leadership team.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
For the record:
The ARP is a seceder denomination. They have never been part of the PC(USA) during anytime in her US history. I can see why she does not get involoved.
But the PCA and the OPC are cousins to the PC(USA) and should have welcoming arms wide open- and doing all they can to call their cousins home!
The ARP is a seceder denomination. They have never been part of the PC(USA) during anytime in her US history. I can see why she does not get involoved.
But the PCA and the OPC are cousins to the PC(USA) and should have welcoming arms wide open- and doing all they can to call their cousins home!
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
The PCA certainly was formed by churches who left over 30 years ago and there have been churches leaving the PCUSA and joining it ever since. I am sure their arms are open, but the churches leaving now are more egalitarian and do not wish to offend their women leaders. The line was crossed long ago that caused the truly conservative churches to leave. (Yes, there are still a very few joining PCA and ARP.)
Disclaimer...this is just my perception. It may not be right.
Disclaimer...this is just my perception. It may not be right.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
On average? I would say 10-15.
shackleton
Puritan Board Junior
About a year ago, when I was not as reformed as I am now, I looked into the EPC and liked how it looked on paper, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Beliefs, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Position Papers, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Pastoral Letters, Evangelical Presbyterian Church > Frequently Asked Questions About The EPC.
There was one good church in our area, I liked the church but was skeptical about the denomination because of their stance on women in the ministry. Plus, I was wondering, and had heard some people say, that the influx of all the PCUSA folks was going to be bad for the EPC.
I have heard that the PCUSA is now putting up a fight in letting churches leave in the form of lawsuits. Since the PCUSA owns all its buildings it is leaving the churches that want to leave without a home.
Conservative group within the PCUSA, The Layman Online.
I have heard that the numbers are as high as 35,000 people a year leaving, entire churches. There are large groups leaving the Catholics and United Methodist churches as well.
There was one good church in our area, I liked the church but was skeptical about the denomination because of their stance on women in the ministry. Plus, I was wondering, and had heard some people say, that the influx of all the PCUSA folks was going to be bad for the EPC.
I have heard that the PCUSA is now putting up a fight in letting churches leave in the form of lawsuits. Since the PCUSA owns all its buildings it is leaving the churches that want to leave without a home.
Conservative group within the PCUSA, The Layman Online.
I have heard that the numbers are as high as 35,000 people a year leaving, entire churches. There are large groups leaving the Catholics and United Methodist churches as well.
Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
Here's a list for recent years. As you can see, most went EPC.
http://www.layman.org/layman/Resources/churches-leaving-chart.htm
Galatians220
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I was a member of Ward EPC in Livonia from early 1992 through the middle of 2000. Ward, under its pastor, Dr. Bartlett Hess (knew him around the time that he retired; he was a lovely man, albeit really not too Reformed) served as the birthplace of the EPC in the early '80s. I still have a lot of friends who are members of Ward and were on the scene when the EPC was formed. I surmise and deduce, from recent goings-on here, that there's much more to the "New Wineskins" influx of PCUSA churches into the EPC than is being made available for public consumption.
Margaret
Margaret
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Here is a chart of churches that have departed since 2001:
The Layman Online
My understanding is that there is a block of somewhere between 150 and 250 churches that are seeking to depart right now through The New Wineskins Coalition if property and legal issues were willing.
In addition, there are many many more churches who are watching and considering such a move. These churches include those officially and unofficially aligned with various reform movements within the denomination.
CatechumenPatrick
Puritan Board Freshman
I, too, went to Ward a few years ago, though only for a short time. I did not see anything specifically Reformed about it, but then again I have never known much about the church or the EPC.
Do the PCUSA churches that are coming over to confessional denominations (OPC, PCA, ARP, etc) seem committed to the confessions? I wonder how they could have held out that long in the PCUSA as confessional (or if they had recent changes of mind?)—it would be nice to hear some first-hand accounts of transitioning churches out of the PCUSA.
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Thanks, I found some facts on the demographics on the Net. PCUSA has 10,900 congregations. Losing 10-15 per year does not sound as bad as the declining membership numbers within the congregations.
There are several reasons why the EPC is the destination of choice for PCUSA congregations:
- The most likely place where a church can keep its property. This is by far and away the most important consideration. Until recently, it was the standard procedure to dismiss a church with its property to the EPC. While many here might immediately cry "foul!" and say that theology should be the ONLY consideration, it is a very practical matter that affects the (financial) viability of a congregation. (For the record, I think theology is the most important consideration, but I think it is wise stewardship to consider the financial effects also).
- The best place to avoid conflicts over women officers. That does not mean there are not other choices. The ARP, for example, allows women deacons.
- The EPC is being pro-active about this. The New Wineskins Presbytery is just a part of this. EPC presbyteries have put together "theological training" and assessment systems for PCUSA elders and churches.
- The EPC is spread out across the country (as opposed to the OPC, which is overwhelmingly northern, and the ARP, which is overwhelmingly southern), and at the same time, the EPC is small enough (unlike the PCA) to really want to expand (in a good sense) in certain areas where they are thin.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
I wondered the same thing about a year ago when the EPC was pro-actively negotiating with the New Wineskins group within the PCUSA.
Remember that the EPC has "self consciously placed itself in the middle of the Presbyterian spectrum." That is their description of their denomination. What does that mean? Well, it means they are not holding to the distinctives of the Reformed Faith as a denomination. This varies a lot from church to church but the denomination is bound at present by a minimal "List of Essentials."
After fighting for the bare essentials of Christianity for years, most all the churches attempting to depart the PCUSA have lost their Reformed soteriology, for example, as the fight has been focused on issues like the diety of Christ, the Trinity, whether there are many ways to God, etc.
Also, don't forget, the PCUSA has come to require ordaining women (they moved historically from deacon only local options to elder local options to deacon required to elder required to affirmative action pressure on local congregations to ordain women). So, you have churches with a session majority ordained women, officers who don't hold the Calvinist soteriology or the Presbyterian view of the Lord's Supper, don't do church discipline, haven't discipled members or officers in the Westminster Standards, etc. (again, there are individual exceptions to this, but this is a common profile of churches departing the PCUSA now).
The EPC is providing a "safe haven" for these dear brothers and sisters in Christ.
However, they are mostly broadly evangelical, but not Reformed. A Reformed heritage but not Reformed now.
I do believe that over time, doctrine will settle and some will migrate back to their Reformed roots and end up in many of the NAPARC denominations you mention.
Classical Presbyterian
Puritan Board Junior
From my little corner, the overall idea that the EPC as a denomination is not truly Reformed seems to be incorrect. Their constitution does have a generic list of essentials but these are paired alongside the sole standard of Westminster.
Now, how they see to the proper teaching and preaching of the Westminster Standards is not within my experience, but every single EPC pastor that I have met has been solidly Reformed. Of course, I've only met a dozen or so...
As one who has seen many brothers and sisters Christ leave the husk of PC(USA) for the fair pastures of the EPC, I can attest that those sessions that have made the transition are now being trained in Westminster and they have been blessed by the encounter. Becoming more Reformed may be a slow process at times, but if a congregation is committed to the authority of Scripture and dedicates itself to sticking by the Word, then a reformation and revival is pretty much guaranteed.
But then again, I've always been an optimist about people discovering the Reformed faith!
Now, how they see to the proper teaching and preaching of the Westminster Standards is not within my experience, but every single EPC pastor that I have met has been solidly Reformed. Of course, I've only met a dozen or so...
As one who has seen many brothers and sisters Christ leave the husk of PC(USA) for the fair pastures of the EPC, I can attest that those sessions that have made the transition are now being trained in Westminster and they have been blessed by the encounter. Becoming more Reformed may be a slow process at times, but if a congregation is committed to the authority of Scripture and dedicates itself to sticking by the Word, then a reformation and revival is pretty much guaranteed.
But then again, I've always been an optimist about people discovering the Reformed faith!
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
That church is French Camp, MS I think...
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
You would be correct.
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