Why the supposed failure in the Netherlands Dr. Trueman / George Grant

[PuritanCovenanter]

It seems there is a disconnect of historical knowledge between what Carl Trueman says about the Netherlands (Abrham Kuyper’s influence) and what George Grant gives as a reason for the supposed failure of Kuyper.


“And Kuyper failed to effect any lasting transformation of society. Just visit Amsterdam today, if you can bear the pornographic filth even in those areas where the lights are not all red.” Carl Trueman


Did Kuyper truly fail Dr. Trueman or was there some force of evil that put the work down as persecution to Christians has done before in Persia, North Africa, and China?





http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2013/08/cigar-smoke-and-mirrors-and-tr.php


George Grant gives a good synopsis on how Hitler went out to destroy a dead mans (Abraham Kuyper) influence and work.


http://stevemacias.com/kuyperianvisiongrant.mp3


I was glad to gain the knowledge George Grant provided because it explains a lot of why things went downhill for the Netherlands when they had such a fertil soil to work and thrive in.

Hitler was obsessed with Kuyper, a man who had been dead for twenty years when Hitler launched his attack on the Netherlands. What high praise for this man whose chief desire was to bring true praise and honor to the Lord Jesus.


Why did Hitler fear a man that had been dead for twenty years? Hitler feared Kuyper’s view on the role of God in everyday life. For Kuyper believed that God continually influenced the life of believers, and daily events could show his workings. As Kuyper famously said, “Oh, no single piece of our mental world is to be hermetically sealed off from the rest, and there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’”


Kuyper lived out this notion and helped create a culture completely juxtaposed to the world order that Hitler had hoped to impose.

Hear Dr. George Grant as he orates on the significance of the Kuyperian Worldview.


Listen here:
Download mp3: http://stevemacias.com/kuyperianvisiongrant.mp3


Please enjoy the mp3 by George Grant. The original source for it is found here. The Man Hitler Feared Most: Abraham Kuyper - SteveMacias.com

Things aren't always as they appear Dr. Trueman. I would call it a result of persecution during WWII instead of failure.

Why the Failure in the Netherlands since Kuyper? Trueman / Grant | RPCNA Covenanter

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It can be said that "...Josiah failed to effect any lasting transformation of society...." No leader can be faulted for leading in a Godly manner when they are in office but only God can effect lasting transformation.

 

[RamistThomist]

I've been meaning to listen to the talks, but I did have one idea come to mind: I am not an expert on Dutch history, but wasn't there already a move towards liberalism before Hitler? Something about Kuyper being dissatisfied with the state church and "going Dutch."

 

[Guido's Brother]

We have discussed the claims of Grant before. Some of us also discussed them at length on Facebook. The conclusion: they don't seem to hold water. If someone shows the primacy sources, I'll back down. Until then, we should be careful in propagating this account of Hitler and Kuyper.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

As noted in the thread referenced by Wes...
"I was able to get the info you refer to while visiting the Corrie Ten Boom house in the Netherlands. I bought a little book there, "There Will Always Be Trouble," by Aarlen V. Toop (1961). Though the translation was at times strained, the material, largely the personal testimony and recollections of a member of the Dutch Underground, has proved to be invaluable. It is anecdotal in nature, but it seems to comport with what we know of the Dutch occupation period." George Grant.


I guess we should question both sides. It is definitely troublesome how Hitler used the Church and persecuted it. He seems to have bought the lie, "Hath God said?" as German Higher Criticism bought into. There is no denial about how the Dutch underground had an impact in the Netherlands during the war. There were definitely many situations that seem to have caused the Netherlands to go array. I just don't think Trueman's implication that Kuyper failed is the correct assessment. Something changed but I don't think it was because of Kuyper's views or that those views failed.

 

[Guido's Brother]

I highly recommend the recent biography by James Bratt on all this. Review here.

 

[Peairtach]

I think the Dutch societal structure of "Pillarisation" might have something to do with the situation that Trueman is talking about. If you're going to have extreme pillarisation, you have the danger of extreme ghettoisation, and of the Christian salt not interacting with large parts of the societal meat.

But at the end of the day there has been a vertiginous spiritual and moral rebellion and decline in the West since the '60s, that no amount of Christian cultural transformation, could hold back or deny. That doesn't
mean that it is of no value in context.

It's interesting that Trueman mentions toilet attendants, and class considerations of "transformationists". In a recent thread I came to the conclusion, that for motive, goal and normative extent, a Christian toilet attendant can more truly fulfil the Cultural Mandate, than the most cultured and talented unbeliever. This should encourage us all, whatever our legitimate callings or cultual activities.

Remember that Adam was "only" a gardener, and our Lord was "only" a joiner.







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[PuritanCovenanter]

Wes, is it not true that Hitler wanted all of the Grads from the Free University of Amsterdam arrested and treated as the Jews?

 

[SRoper]

It's interesting that Trueman mentions toilet attendants, and class considerations of "transformationists". In a recent thread I came to the conclusion, that for motive, goal and normative extent, a Christian toilet attendant can more truly fulfil the Cultural Mandate, than the most cultured and talented unbeliever. This should encourage us all, whatever our legitimate callings or cultual activities.

Remember that Adam was "only" a gardener, and our Lord was "only" a joiner.

All I know is I've seen plenty of conferences regarding Christians and the arts but none about Christians and the trades.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Does anyone know of the work George Grant is referring to by Otto Klassen? I am supposing that is how you spell the name. I can't find any reference.

 

[Guido's Brother]

Wes, is it not true that Hitler wanted all of the Grads from the Free University of Amsterdam arrested and treated as the Jews?

I've never heard of that before and never seen any proof of it. Some Free University grads were Nazi sympathizers and collaborators in WWII. In the late 1930s, the Reformed Churches of the Netherlands had over 8000 members who were also members of the Dutch Nazi party.

 

[Edward]

Otto Klassen

Mennonite documentary filmmaker?

Otto Klassen fonds

 

[MW]

It can be said that "...Josiah failed to effect any lasting transformation of society...." No leader can be faulted for leading in a Godly manner when they are in office but only God can effect lasting transformation.

Well said!

"But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand."

 

[Peairtach]

Wes, is it not true that Hitler wanted all of the Grads from the Free University of Amsterdam arrested and treated as the Jews?

I've never heard of that before and never seen any proof of it. Some Free University grads were Nazi sympathizers and collaborators in WWII. In the late 1930s, the Reformed Churches of the Netherlands had over 8000 members who were also members of the Dutch Nazi party.

Fascism of all varieties was to some extent a reaction to the threat of Communist revolution. That doesn't justify it or the antisemitism of some of its types, but it is a partial explanation as to why some Christian people would hitch their wagon to it, before the full extent of the Nazis' wickedness had become apparent.

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[PuritanCovenanter]

Well, I am beginning to wonder about the resources used. I am finding nothing to back this stuff up. I still have my reservations about what Trueman stated also.

 

[MW]

The psalms of lament teach us that it is only when we have realistic horizons of expectation will we be able to stand firm against what is coming.

Preparing for the worst should not prejudice hoping for the best. The laments of Psalm 22 are all the more inviting because they are not only heard but vindicated in the universal victory which follows.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I can appreciate the sentiment Trueman has in some of this Rev. Winzer. Cigar Smoke and Mirrors and Transformation I am not necessarily middle class either. I fall well below much of the income level of many. I don't truly think Keller is an option for the so-called transformationalist. He has too many problems theologically and allows to many strange things at Redeemer in my opinion. I am still trying to figure out what Transformationalist means. Many want to make it about a Social Liberal Gospel which I do not hold to. I do agree with Kuyper, "There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’" I do believe that the Nations should submit to Christ as King. I also believe that history proves when the Church and State work together under His Kingship the people do much better and the Church and people thrive with more liberty to do what is correct in loving our neighbor the way they should be. There sure seems to be a lot less lawlessness. At the same time we all still need a lot of mercy and grace. Plus doctrinal integrity has been more solid and developed when the Church and State have come together 'looking to the Word of God' as during the times of certain counsels and even with our Beloved Westminster Standards. I just think Trueman and Hart are missing the mark.

I fully accept that we may be in for a time of persecution and mayhem. It has always existed on this planet. Look at Egypt today. We all have acquaintences in persecuted lands. Why shouldn't it happen here? At the same time I believe we should pray as our Lord taught us. They Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven... so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2:10,11 Defeatism seems to be the accepted norm of the Day. The people perish for a lack of knowledge and as King David noted that comes from the Law of God.

Additional note. King David wrote a lot of Psalms waiting for deliverance from persecution. No one is setting that aside I don't believe but we work in the vineyard still calling upon all men to repent everywhere. One sows, one waters, The Lord gives the increase.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I think Bill said it much better than I could. Let's give credit where credit is due. He had the same problem with the failure comment I had.

http://theecclesialcalvinist.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/lets-give-credit-where-credit-is-due/

 

[Pilgrim]

I am still trying to figure out what Transformationalist means.

What is in view with the epithet is basically the idea that there is any such thing as a "Christian Worldview" and perhaps specifically the idea that there ought to be a move toward "Christianizing" (i.e. transforming) society in any sense. This would include taking a negative view of everything from Carl F.H. Henry's "Uneasy Conscience" (a big influence on SBTS) to Neo-Calvinism (Kuyper) to theonomy. "Transformationalism" is seen as antithetical to the mission of the church. It's a word that I've primarily, if not exclusively, seen E2kers use. (I'm not sure that Trueman is exactly making an E2k point here although he does evidently agree with them on toilet cleaners. I think his point is more aimed at the perceived failure of Keller's ministry in this regard.)

I've got no clue whether or not Grant's assertions hold any water. The sense I got years ago was that Kuyper's disciples eventually lost their salt i.e. they continued to be involved in politics but that they made various compromises where the Gospel was concerned. But I can't remember where I picked that up. It's possible that I could have wrongly equated it in some sense (or too closely associated it) with what I saw as errors made by the recent evangelical political activists in the USA with things like the Manhattan Declaration and ECT.

 

[RamistThomist]

I am still trying to figure out what Transformationalist means.

I've got no clue whether or not Grant's assertions hold any water. The sense I got years ago was that Kuyper's disciples eventually lost their salt i.e. they continued to be involved in politics but that they made various compromises where the Gospel was concerned. But I can't remember where I picked that up. It's possible that I could have wrongly equated it in some sense (or too closely associated it) with what I saw as errors made by the recent evangelical political activists in the USA with things like the Manhattan Declaration and ECT.

F. N. Lee has some good sermons on this that are quite interesting, given his Afrikaaner backgroun.

 

[Peairtach]

I think Trueman's point about being naively optimistic in the current climate in the West is fair enough.

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[PuritanCovenanter]

I believe he uses too much hyperbole and too many strawmen in the blogs for them to be a reliable understanding of the situation. He is only revealing his colors in my estimation concerning the debate. Weren't the Europeans considered the Lost Generation after WWI? It took a lot out of them on all sides. They still haven't recovered. (but I do see some wonderful things happening over in Europe.) We are now becoming that also for many of the same reasons I believe. Higher criticism, (Hath God said?) Deceitfulness of ******, the lust of the Flesh, departure from the Standards that were confessed, etc. Sure things are bad and might be for generations but it shouldn't stop us from proceeding in truth and pursuing truth. Who knows? Maybe God will bring revival in all areas of life. Even for the Toilet bowl cleaning guy. Come on. Some of the comments are just out there. A Conference for Toilet Bowl Cleaning to the Glory of God? This is just over the top stuff. BTW, there have been plenty of conferences on a person's vocation and the Glory of God.

 

[jwithnell]

Well, pulling church and state together resulted in both my physical and spiritual ancestors being run out of England. (In the physical case, because my family members were Friends; in the spiritual sense because I trace much of my thinking to the New England puritans.) Oh, and the union of the Roman church and Europe did little to preserve purity, and ultimately the unity, of the church.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

DG’s critique at Old Life of the bombastic claims about transformationism is akin to one I have made frequently in the classroom about talk of the [singular] ‘Christian worldview’: such things are, by and large, code for the expression of the concerns of the middle class chatterati in a blandly Christian idiom. As far as I know, for example, no conferences on the transformation of Christian toilet cleaning or turkey rendering have yet been successfully organised.

This is where DG’s history of Calvinism is interesting. I was struck by his account of Abraham Kuyper. Here was a (probable) genius and (definite) workaholic who had at his personal disposal a university, a newspaper and a denomination, and also held the highest political office in his land. We might also throw in to the mix that he did this at a time when European culture was far more sympathetic to broadly Christian concerns than that of the USA today. And Kuyper failed to effect any lasting transformation of society. Just visit Amsterdam today, if you can bear the pornographic filth even in those areas where the lights are not all red.


Forgive me for sounding curmudgeonly here but I heard last week from a PCA friend who cannot find space to rent for his church on a Sunday because of the PCA’s stand on gay marriage. And this is south of the Mason-Dixon, not Boston or Seattle or New York. Yes, it is great that stockbrokers are finding Christ; and I am sure there are some for whom the fact there are Christian artists and Broadway producers is also an encouragement (are there any Christian loo cleaners out there in the Big Apple? ); and Tim Keller’s occasional spot onMorning Joe is an interesting, if somewhat harmless, phenomenon. But the culture is not being transformed at any point where it really counts, where it makes a real difference for pastors and people on the increasingly mean streets of the secular world as they seek to be quietly and peacefully faithful to the Lord. If anything, it is accelerating in the wrong direction.


This is hardly surprising to anyone with any sense of history. Keller is no Kuyper and does not have at his disposal any of the institutional or political or cultural resources of which the Dutchman had so many and so much. And, to put it bluntly, Keller is the transformationists’ best shot today. It does not matter how often we tell each other that our celebrity transformationists are making headway, such claims are only so much delusional hype. A Broadway play and a couple of nice paintings do not help the man who cannot rent space to worship on the Lord’s Day. Indeed, I wonder if any of these transformationists have ever asked themselves whether what we are seeing are not in fact transforming inroads into the culture but the modern equivalents of bread and circuses designed to gull the gullible — meaningless trivia, conceded by the wider culture, that make no real difference; where and when the stakes are higher and actually worth playing for, no quarter is, or will be, given.


Surely it is time to become realistic. It is time to drop the cultural elitism that poses as significant Christian transformation of culture but only really panders to nothing more than middle class tastes and hobbies. It is time to look again at the New Testament’s teaching on the church as a sojourning people where here we have no lasting home. The psalms of lament teach us that it is only when we have realistic horizons of expectation will we be able to stand firm against what is coming. If we do not understand that now, we are going to be sorely disappointed in the near future.

Richard,
In all due respect brother, I can eat this up and spit it out refutation thought by thought. It might sound ungracious if I do. I wouldn't have any intent on being ungracious. There is a lot wrong with this stuff. There are some things that have a ring of truth to them. But there is so much wrong with this. Trueman says some pretty off the wall stuff in my estimation. But I am not one prone to hero worship either. So he won't get much of a defense from me.

DG once challenged me about what my business was. I told him. I am not just a keyboard flunky. We actually do ministry here. All the way from the top State Capitol down to the beggarly streets and prisons where I am closer too. I have very well to do friends to very poor friends. And yes, we believe Christ makes a difference in peoples lives even when they aren't in the Church because He is Lord of all. Maybe Trueman needs to come to Indiana and visit for a bit so that he can view things from a Different angle. Maybe he has been in the Tower too long.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Well, pulling church and state together resulted in both my physical and spiritual ancestors being run out of England. (In the physical case, because my family members were Friends; in the spiritual sense because I trace much of my thinking to the New England puritans.) Oh, and the union of the Roman church and Europe did little to preserve purity, and ultimately the unity, of the church.

We are not debating Erastianism here. No one is for that. Not even the Conservative Confessional Anglicans I know. By the way, I am a descendant of William Bradford. I can prove that. Remember the Mayflower Compact?

 

[jwithnell]

We are not debating Erastianism here.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

We are not debating Erastianism here.

You give up too easy. . LOL.

 

[Peairtach]

I think Trueman's relating of Kuyper's work with the present state of parts of Amsterdam sounds a bit simplistic.

Anyway, who's to say that the real gains Kuyper made in his day, at another time in history wouldn't have been so easily thrown away.

As regards toilet attendants, if there is snobbishness among " transformationalists" there's no.reason why that can't be adjusted and corrected. Maybe there's sometimes a focus on the arts because there is more to discuss and debate on how to be a Christian artist rather than how to be a Christian toilet attendant.

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[py3ak]

The overall point is really very simple. Why do we expect things from Tim Keller that Abraham Kuyper, with greater gifts and in more favorable circumstances, couldn't deliver? The question at the end of Trueman's piece, about whether some of the positive things we see are not simply meaningless concessions meant to pacify the church until her position is such that no pacification is necessary, is worth pondering. It seems unlikely that no Christians were put off with meaningless or deceitful concessions at the time of the Restoration, for instance: and Calvin was always alive to that danger, especially from the Emperor.

Of course, it might be noted in Keller's favor that he is not a politician. On that point, the sober Matthew Henry observes:

Those that minister about holy things should neither entangle themselves, nor be entangled, in secular affairs. The ministry is itself work enough for a whole man, and all little enough to be employed in it.

The Israelites must not come nigh the tabernacle, but then the Levites must have no inheritance in the land; if ministers expect that people should keep in their sphere, and not intermeddle with sacred offices, let them keep in theirs, and not entangle themselves in secular affairs.

Nothing is more likely to ensnare ministers, than bringing them to meddle with controversies about civil rights, and to settle landmarks between the prince and the subject, which it is fit should be done, while it is not at all fit that they should have the doing of it.

(Commentary on Numbers 1:49, Numbers 18:22, Mark 12:14)

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I think it is a moot point you are making Ruben. I say that with all due respect as you are much better learned and better theologically. So I am willing to be set in my place. Israel is not as we are (The temple Veil was Torn apart) and they had Dominion that was set up to recognize the Law of God in all realms of Society. I believe that is supposed to be true today. Not in the sense of modern day Theonomists. I believe General Equity is very important concerning the Decalogue as Calvin probably did. I have let Calvin speak on his own about civil law here.

John Calvin on Civil Government and Law. | RPCNA Covenanter


No one is looking for Paradise on Earth. Just what 1Ti 2:1,2 states.

 

  First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

BTW, I am no scholar and I don't read Matthew Henry very often but weren't the Cities of Refuge under Levitical control and The Lord the Levite's possession who owned all? And weren't the Kings to be subject to the Prophets and Priests concerning God's Law?