Why the supposed failure in the Netherlands Dr. Trueman / George Grant

[Hamalas]

Having some connections to the Netherlands, I believe there is truth to what Trueman wrote. But a stronger critique of transformationalism might focus on the trajectory of the churches that embraced Kuyperianism rather than simplifying the complex influences that shaped the history of a nation.

Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.

What about "Pillarisation" in the Netherlands? Would that not lead to isolation from the rest of society? I can appreciate the need for Christian schools, but not e.g. Christian trade unions.



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I'm not familiar with this term, could you elaborate?

 

[MW]

Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.

That is certainly more to the point and the basic underlying problem with "transformationalism."

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Attempts by the church to transform culture seem to have led to the transforming of the church by the culture.

That is certainly more to the point and the basic underlying problem with "transformationalism."

Maybe we need to recognize what Dr. Kinneer said here. ‘Modern Day Reformed Thought’ and Two Kingdoms | RPCNA Covenanter

Here are very brief Stereo-Typical ways of understanding these issues according to the Host of the show.


The Non Two Kingdom View is a Tranformationalist and or a Theonomic view saying, “If we can just make the culture Christian everything will Change and Christ’s Kingdom will come.”


The Two Kingdom view says that Culture Transformation is not the job of the Church. The Church receives the Kingdom. It doesn’t create one. The job of the Church is to take the sacraments, hear the word preached, be fathers and mothers and plumbers and just go on with our life. If Jesus wants to do something through it and for us He can.


Those are the two extremes…


The Host then asks Dr. Kinneer if his definitions are correct.


Dr. Jack Kinneer of Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
replies,
“What you have is the American A view and the American B view.”
What you don’t have is the Historical C view.


Amen Dr. Kinneer! That is what I have been trying to tell some of the guys who are writing and discussing this issue now days.


Also Dr. Kinneer notes, that as all aberrations and heresies in theology tend to distort the doctrine of Christ, some of the types of two Kingdoms teaching distorts the doctrine of Christ also. A lot depends on how you define Two Kingdoms. I believe it should be called two fold government, to be more precise.


Both definitions the host defined were basically true but fall short of the Historical doctrine. And I would declare that the most vocal Modern Day Reformed Church Seminary Professors have no idea what the Historic view is. I deduce this by what I am hearing come out of the mouths of today’s Seminary Students, Graduates, and their Professor’s writings and comments. I can also assess this by the personal discussions I have been having with these men and younger theologians who have been taught by these guys.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I want to know one thing because evidently I don't understand. What did Abraham Kuyper do that lead to debauchery in the Netherlands? I just don't know.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Aresponse to Carl Trueman, one from Anthony Bradley.

 

[py3ak]

I want to know one thing because evidently I don't understand. What did Abraham Kuyper do that lead to debauchery in the Netherlands? I just don't know.

I'm no expert on Kuyper or Kuyper studies so this could be out there somewhere, but I haven't seen anyone make the argument that Kuyper led to debauchery. The point made is that his heroic attempts at transformation from quite a strong platform didn't prevent the slide.

So when you come to our day, with less heroic attempts from a weaker platform there seems to be no historical reason to expect a better result. Claims of better results in the here and now, therefore, probably reflect a partial perspective or maybe gullibility.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

And I disagree. Remove the Law of God from Society and you have what? Remove Christ and you have what? I asked a Lawyer friend of mind where his moral base came from. He said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I asked him where he got that. He was dumb founded. It came from my King.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

What did Abraham Kuyper do that led to the debauchery of the Netherlands?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

My people perish..... Lack of Knowledge. Modern day Natural Law? It aint what the Divine's thought.

Edit... http://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.co...-and-natural-law-question-for-dr-guy-richard/

 

[py3ak]

And I disagree. Remove the Law of God from Society and you have what? Remove Christ and you have what? I asked a Lawyer friend of mind where his moral base came from. He said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I asked him where he got that. He was dumb founded. It came from my King.

I'm not sure if you're replying to me or someone else. If to me, I'm afraid you'll have to clarify what it is you disagree with, whether that the Netherlands is in a worse state now than it was under Kuyper or some other point.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

It just seems that the failure comment might be a bit misunderstood as though Kuyper's work somehow comes up short. At the same time we might say the same thing about Moses' work I guess and he was under a specific Divine calling that was direct. I guess I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this and I just need to let it go at this point.

 

[Peairtach]

Dr Kuyper didn't fail. His works are encouraging Christian people to think in a more full-orbed and consistent way about the Christian life.

There just need to be a few more converts to pick up his teachings, in America and Amsterdam. Only the Holy Spirit can do that through the preaching of the Gospel.

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[Backwoods Presbyterian]

One of the points Nelson Kloosterman makes in his book-length review of David Vandrunen's work is that there is a three-volume work (Pro Rege) written by Kuyper specifically on the Church-State question that remains unpublished in English that would answer a lot of these questions, at least as they pertain to Kuyper.

 

[py3ak]

It just seems that the failure comment might be a bit misunderstood as though Kuyper's work somehow comes up short. At the same time we might say the same thing about Moses' work I guess and he was under a specific Divine calling that was direct. I guess I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this and I just need to let it go at this point.

If Dr. Trueman meant to blame Kuyper for not doing better or for the current state of Amsterdam, I certainly disagree with that. But I haven't seen Dr. Trueman lay blame in that way.

I think you can speak of failure in three ways: with regard to expectation, effort, and end. Everyone fails with regard to end, except Christ: we die, and our influence wanes. The institutions we created disappear or distort into something we would hate. Only the institution that Christ created cannot be prevailed against.

We fail with regard to effort when we don't do our duty. Apart from specific points where we disagree with what duty might be, I don't think anyone here would accuse Kuyper or the Puritans of failure in regard to effort (or Moses, or David, or the Reformers, etc.). In broad terms, they were faithful in preaching God's word, in repenting from sin, and in running with patience the race set before them. If I may be permitted the observation, this is really the only category where "failure" can be a term of blame; and this is the only sort of failure we should be worried about.

But the third way is with regard to expectation. If Kuyper expected (and I don't know if he did or not) that his efforts in church and state would lead to a godly and prosperous Netherlands, it would seem he was disappointed: that hope failed, at least in the short term. The same thing could be said of the expectation of some Puritans that the millennium was about to be brought in - what came next turned out to be only the Restoration, with the disappointment and trouble that the Stuart monarchy brought along with it. It is in this sense that I understood Dr. Trueman's piece: the expectations people pin on Keller, etc., are misguided because a hundred years ago a better player with a better hand didn't beat the house.

But I don't mean to suck you into a discussion you'd rather step back from.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I can appreciate the interaction and helping try to clear this up. Just knowing DG and the reference to him seems to indicate there is more to this and maybe I don't need to go there. Thanks Ruben.

 

[MW]

The failure is in the fallen world's inability to receive the light. The success is in the grace of God which operates so effectually as to enable a man to sacrifice his life in the service of his Lord. The judgment day will bring this to light, when everything that is hidden shall be revealed. Whether or not one's labours result in visible change is in God's hands. Something has gone terribly wrong in the Christian mindset when the value of labour is estimated at the rate of what is seen. At that point there is great need to go back to the cross of Christ and learn what it means to glory in it.

 

[mvdm]

Whether or not one's labours result in visible change is in God's hands. Something has gone terribly wrong in the Christian mindset when the value of labour is estimated at the rate of what is seen. At that point there is great need to go back to the cross of Christ and learn what it means to glory in it.

Amen.

 

[ZackF]

Whether or not one's labours result in visible change is in God's hands. Something has gone terribly wrong in the Christian mindset when the value of labour is estimated at the rate of what is seen.

I would go further and say that the "value estimations" of labour (sic lol) seen nowadays go to the level of full blown self-righteous judgment. I am tired of men on both sides of the 2k and non-2k debate blaming each other for the collapse of Western Civilization and at times doing so in a ways in which they all but write each other out of Christianity. Sickening!