wicca/natl socialism?

[bemer]

I've been reading "Lucifer's Court" by Otto Rahn, the esoteric SS member whom Himmler sent on loopy searches for the Holy Grail (not my usual reading, but interesting in a way). As Rahn describes it, the "theology" (if one can so describe it) of National Socialism was really very similar to that of modern Wicca. (The main difference was the intense racialism of the Nazis, which makes Robert Lewis Dabney look like a racial liberal.) Has anyone tracked interactions between what is now described as the religion of Wicca and esoteric Nazism?

 

[TimV]

Bob 99 percent of what you read on the subject is made up. Some officers, especially in the SS were trying to build a national mythology but to draw close relationships with nazism and wicca would be like using the Log Cabin Republican leadership to prove that there is a strong relationship between the Republican party and the gay agenda.

And BTW about 99 percent of what you read about nazi racialism is exaggerated too (not to day genocide never happened, but that is a slightly different subject). Very few went farther than Dabney. Blacks fought in all the major battles for Germany, even as members of the SS (since you brought up Himmler who headed the SS). In fact only half the members of the SS were racial Germans, the others being Slavs, Balts, Mongols, Albanians and even Jews. SS chaplains were the same, with Christian Padres, Buddhists, Imams, and in some Divisions none since the individual Standartenfueher was Agnostic.

It's true Himmler had some nutty ideas, and was trying to build a national mythology, but as to specifics, if you start reading up on individual claims, they're mostly on the order of some author interviewing some very old monk who vaguely remembers something. In any event, very little if anything trickled down to the rank and file.

 

[Kevin]

Bob, Tim is correct. Most of the nazi=wicca/new age/what ever the current fad is an example of the "reducto ad hitlerum" fallacy.

 

[PresbyDane]

Bob 99 percent of what you read on the subject is made up. Some officers, especially in the SS were trying to build a national mythology but to draw close relationships with nazism and wicca would be like using the Log Cabin Republican leadership to prove that there is a strong relationship between the Republican party and the gay agenda.

And BTW about 99 percent of what you read about nazi racialism is exaggerated too (not to day genocide never happened, but that is a slightly different subject). Very few went farther than Dabney. Blacks fought in all the major battles for Germany, even as members of the SS (since you brought up Himmler who headed the SS). In fact only half the members of the SS were racial Germans, the others being Slavs, Balts, Mongols, Albanians and even Jews. SS chaplains were the same, with Christian Padres, Buddhists, Imams, and in some Divisions none since the individual Standartenfueher was Agnostic.

It's true Himmler had some nutty ideas, and was trying to build a national mythology, but as to specifics, if you start reading up on individual claims, they're mostly on the order of some author interviewing some very old monk who vaguely remembers something. In any event, very little if anything trickled down to the rank and file.

Wait a minute, Jews and black people in the SS

 

[TimV]

Check out the guy's cap. Jews, Blacks and lots of Danes. Wiking SS, Nordland SS, and Scandinavians were even used to stiffen the almost worthless Muslim Divisions.

But you should know much of that, since that cute little Danish prank a few years ago in Afghanistan where your soldiers painted Thor's runes outside their camp. It made news all over the world, with much wringing of hands.

 

[Pergamum]

Amazon.com: Icon of Evil: Hitler's Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam eBook: David G. Dalin, John F. Rothmann: Kindle Store

Hitler aided radical Islam, too.

 

[TimV]

Perg, that's more neocon Jewish propaganda to be eaten up by ignorant Christian Zionists. In addition to being off topic. From the review of the book

Al-Husseini would later recruit more than 100,000 Muslims in Europe to fight in divisions of the Waffen-SS

Ten Divisions worth? Ridiculous. The highest numbers I've ever seen are half that, and only when non-Waffen SS troops are counted.

Besides, the Allies had over ten times as many Muslim soldiers as the nazis. The French alone used twice the number of Muslims as the nazis.

Even today, if you promise some Albanian villagers lots of pay and nice weapons to fight Serbs, you'll get the same number of volunteer the nazis got using the same recruiting technique and for the same reasons.

 

[ericfromcowtown]

Two factors to remember when looking at this:

1) National Socialism wasn't (and isn't) as monolithic as one might expect given it's totalitarian nature. Within Third Reich Germany you had both pagan-inspired SS ceremonies / imagery and Christian chaplans on the Eastern Front.

2) It's hard sometimes to differentiate between National Socialist ideology and the expediency of the moment. Did we misinterpret SS nordicism or did Himmler have an epiphany prior to implementing Slavic or Muslim SS regiments, or was it "all hands on deck" and let's worry about being ideologically consistent after we've won the war?

Side note on Hitler supporting radical Islam - the same could be said to be true of the United States in their support of the mujahadeen in Afghanistan. In both cases, the motivation was likely "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," rather than anything too deep or telling.

 

[PresbyDane]

Check out the guy's cap. Jews, Blacks and lots of Danes. Wiking SS, Nordland SS, and Scandinavians were even used to stiffen the almost worthless Muslim Divisions.

But you should know much of that, since that cute little Danish prank a few years ago in Afghanistan where your soldiers painted Thor's runes outside their camp. It made news all over the world, with much wringing of hands.

First I hear of any runes

I knew that the muslims were working with the ss but not that they were ss, and during the olympics in germany in 1936 Hitler called the afro-american contestant (I forget his name) an animal, and said it was not fair having his men fight an animal.
How come he would allow black people in his special forces if that is the way he felt.

I must tell you, I would really like to show some of this stuff to our neo-nazis over here because I am not sure they know this.

 

[TimV]

I knew that the muslims were working with the ss but not that they were ss, and during the olympics in germany in 1936 Hitler called the afro-american contestant (I forget his name) an animal, and said it was not fair having his men fight an animal.

There were Muslims both in the Waffen and Allgemeine SS, but as I said they were greatly outnumbered by the Muslims who fought for the Allies.

I think you are talking of Jesse Owens. Owens was treated as a hero in Germany, with huge crowds showing up just to watch him practice. He said he was treated better in Germany than in his home state. Hitler began the Olympics by shaking the hand of Germans who won gold medals, but the head of the IOC told him he either had to shake everyone's hand or nobodies, and since there were still a hundred medals to go he chose to stop shaking everyone's hand. Owen said, though, that Hitler once saw him, and jumped up to wave at him.

A leftist, politically active journalist started the story that Hitler refused to shake Owen's hand because he was Black. Owen tried to set the record straight but ended up giving up trying to and going with the flow.

Or maybe you are talking about Joe Louis, who fought a German (with a Jewish manager) who hated nazism, but either way it's just a made up story.

Remember what the first casualty of war is.

 

[kvanlaan]

Some links (not sure of the accuracy of any of them):

Jesse Owens did not get a Handshake (1936 Summer Olympics) at ecopolis

Hitler 'shook hands' with black 1936 Olympic hero Jesse Owens | Mail Online

 

[Edward]

Or maybe you are talking about Joe Louis, who fought a German (with a Jewish manager) who hated nazism, but either way it's just a made up story.

While Max Schmeling was no Nazi, he did serve his country. He was in an airborne unit (gliders) and participated in the invasion of Crete. At one point in the battle he was reported killed in action, but he survived the battle and the war.

 

[TimV]

He loved his country. If I recall correctly he broke his ankle landing on Crete. He ended up helping Louis when his arch rival had monetary problems. A true athlete, and a true German gentleman involved against his will in a stupid, fratricidal war.

 

[Edward]

I knew that the muslims were working with the ss but not that they were ss,

My recollection is that Handschar 13th Div. was predominately Muslim. The Albanian SS division (Skanderbeg 13th Div.) would have been as well.

 

[Ivan]

He loved his country. If I recall correctly he broke his ankle landing on Crete. He ended up helping Louis when his arch rival had monetary problems. A true athlete, and a true German gentleman involved against his will in a stupid, fratricidal war.

Do we know whether he was a Christian?

 

[TimV]

You are right, Handschar and Scanderbeg were Muslim. But were "stiffened" with Norse and Dutch SS volunteers.