Will Anyone Catch the Pirates??
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Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Only if they go on vacation and put the stadium ushers into uniform 
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Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
How many games do they have left with the Nats and Diamondbacks?
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
How many folks would have said, at the beginning of the season, that the NL division leaders at this point in the season would be Atlanta, Cincinnati, and San Diego, with San Francisco leading the wild card? 
Poor Pittsburgh. The last winning season they had was 1992. It was ended with Francisco Cabrera's improbable two-run single in the bottom of the ninth for the Braves' win, and then Barry Bonds leaving as a free agent and going to San Francisco in the off season. Francisco did them in twice.
Poor Pittsburgh. The last winning season they had was 1992. It was ended with Francisco Cabrera's improbable two-run single in the bottom of the ninth for the Braves' win, and then Barry Bonds leaving as a free agent and going to San Francisco in the off season. Francisco did them in twice.
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he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
nnatew24
Puritan Board Freshman
Apparently the Pirates are doing something right! An ESPN article this morning suggests that they are intentionally losing in order to increase profits. Given that their current payroll is just barely above what it was in 1992, their last winning season, I agree.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
That is just wrong.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
The good news is the Pirates finally have competent people in the Front Office. It took 15 years but they finally hired a couple guys with a clue how to build a farm system. However it takes a couple years to clean up the previous 15 years of incompetence. We have spent more than any other team in baseball for three straight drafts and it it is going to take a year or three for that talent to make its way to Pittsburgh.
By the way L.A. Dodgers. Thanks for James McDonald and Lambo.
By the way L.A. Dodgers. Thanks for James McDonald and Lambo.
Such a shame.
I've been to games at 32 parks (nearly half no longer in use) and PNC is easily the best active facility, right down to the concession food.
I'm old enough to remember the 1979 World Series, not quite for the earlier one.
What happened to the O's and Bucs? Two strong franchises of my formative years...
And Toronto as well...
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
In the Orioles' case, it seems to have began for precisely the opposite reason -- they were spending too much money. It seems that sometime around the late 90s, the owner was spending huge amounts of money on big name free agents (remember Albert Bell?), but not necessarily the best talent team-wise. Simply putting together a lot of very expensive spare parts does not mean you get a working automobile.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
very nice---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 PM ----------
*cough*cubs and mets*cough*
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Three obvious cases of teams that teach you "spending money" nets you nothing if you have a bad farm system.
Staphlobob
Puritan Board Sophomore
bradofshaw
Puritan Board Freshman
I've become a bit of a Pirates apologist the last two years or so because they have finally started to make some very smart moves (even if they've been extremely handicapped by past administration's bad decisions) to get the franchise headed in the right direction. There is a lot of misinformation about the direction of the team and piling on the current administration for doing what they had to do to get out from under years of bad decisions. They sold off almost the entire opening day roster from 2008 over the last 3 seasons because, well, that roster was pretty lousey and there was nothing in the farm system to replace them. Assuming even that the reported surpluses the last two years were available to be spent on payroll, there was no way the Pirates could have spent their way to competitiveness via free agency. They had to unload the high price players in order to reinvest that money in the draft and in international free agency. The key to small market teams being competitive is getting good, young cost-controlled players (guys with less than 6 years service time who have not hit the open market via free agency and make league minimum or arbitration rate salaries) who can play above league average (or better than the theoretical average replacement player from the minors). See the Tampa Bay Rays as exhibit A.
What most critics of the Pirates would have them do is spend their precious, limited resources on "proven veterans" (Jason Bay, Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez types) at market rate (higher than the Pirates should spend) when in reality those guys are not much better than league average themselves and entering their declining years as baseball players. Now the Pirates are younger, have several young impact players on the roster (McCutchen, Tabata, Alvarez, Walker) and thankfully are not strapped with a $100 Million payroll. Plus they've continued to add several promising prospects through the draft the last couple of years.
The Pirates have a lot of obstacles to being a great team, but they at least have a chance to be competitive in the near future if they stick to the rebuilding plan. I personally think things are looking up for the Buccos.
What most critics of the Pirates would have them do is spend their precious, limited resources on "proven veterans" (Jason Bay, Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez types) at market rate (higher than the Pirates should spend) when in reality those guys are not much better than league average themselves and entering their declining years as baseball players. Now the Pirates are younger, have several young impact players on the roster (McCutchen, Tabata, Alvarez, Walker) and thankfully are not strapped with a $100 Million payroll. Plus they've continued to add several promising prospects through the draft the last couple of years.
The Pirates have a lot of obstacles to being a great team, but they at least have a chance to be competitive in the near future if they stick to the rebuilding plan. I personally think things are looking up for the Buccos.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Bradofshaw is now my favorite poster on PB. I could not have said it better.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Or the Florida Marlins, who came into existence the year after the last winning season for the Pirates and have managed to win two World Series during that time. Granted, they spent a lot of money on FA to win the first championship, but then they sold off the talent and loaded up the farm system and eventually won a second championship a few years later. Then they sold off the high priced talent and reloaded again. They usually aren't very competitive the off years (they didn't even win their division the two WS years), but even this year they are playing .500+ ball, which a lot of small market clubs would be thrilled with.
Having said all that, if memory serves the Marlins did manage to add at least one veteran FA to each of those WS championship teams. The 1997 had Darren Dalton, and the 2003 team had Pudge Rodriguez. Perhaps that is a missing ingredient for the Pirates. Sure, stock up on that young talent and be patient while it develops, but bring in a veteran or two who can help lead the team.
From a Toronto fan's perspective, imagine if the Bucs were lodged in the AL East with 54 games against the Yankees, Rays and Red Sox over the past few years.
A couple of years ago the league stuck them with 4 straight at Fenway followed by 4 straight at Yankee Stadium. And it isn't just the $$$ or talent, it's also the day-in-day-out grind grind grind that overcomes any morale or positive thinking. There's not a single MLB team that could face this and stay intact.
The Yankees are a machine that is built for the 162 game schedule with all the patience in the world, win against them today, they'll get you back (and then some) tomorrow.
Even though Toronto has been injury free this year and has enjoyed a few career years at the plate with a very strong rotation, there is not even a prayer of getting out of 4th place.
The Jays would win a few other divisions, I'd even posit with ease.
What does 'a chance to be competitive' mean to a Pirate's fan? Only losing 60% of their games?
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Winning Divisions. Something your Padres prove you can do.
Willem van Oranje
Puritan Board Junior
The Pirates are running a low-cost business model.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
The Pirates winning their division would be a good thing for MLB.
bradofshaw
Puritan Board Freshman
Thanks! I ran across this thread while looking for this thread... aren't you glad the Pirates sold Nady when his value was so high? Tabata has looked great so far this year!
It was a similar deal with the Nate McLouth trade a few years back. The Pirates haven't gotten much impact at the MLB level from that trade (although there is still hope), but at the very least they cleared McLouth's contract and replaced him immediately with a much better, cheaper player from their minor league system. That may look cheap, but it's actually just smart!
---------- Post added 08-27-2010 at 12:00 AM ---------- Previous post was 08-26-2010 at 11:46 PM ----------
The Marlins have done an excellent job of developing talent and making great trades when their players get expensive to reload the system. That said, I think there is a lot more evidence that the Marlins are abusing the revenue sharing system for financial gain (as opposed to direct investment in the team) than the Pirates. Take a look at the last chart on this article (from the best website in the world, fangraphs.com). They had $40M above their net income due to revenue sharing funds.
Now, it holds true for the Marlins the same as the Pirates, that they shouldn't spend all that money just to spend it. I'm opposed to a salary floor more so than a cap because it would just artificially inflate salaries. I think it's great if you can put a competitive team on the field with a $30M payroll, and if you are running surplus every year, then maybe when the time is right (you have most of the pieces needed to contend), you go out and binge on free agents. Now if the Marlins never do that and they consistently let their players walk or trade them away as soon as they hit arbitration, then maybe there is a problem there.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Tabata looks so poised at the plate. He acts like a 10 year vet with his patience.
Jeff Locke looks like he'll be the key to the McLouth, Mr. Gwinnett himself, trade.
Jeff Locke looks like he'll be the key to the McLouth, Mr. Gwinnett himself, trade.
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Hey, my father-in-law lives about a mile from the Gwinett AAA stadium. I could see McLouth play every time we visited if I wanted.
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